Mice make garters bigger then on worms?

[Philminator]

I'm sure this has been brought up before but could not find a thread on it. Is it a proven fact that a garter snake eating mice will grow to be much larger then being on a worm diet? or is the only good thing about them eating mice is that it's cheaper and they get more calcium.

[Charis]

I'd like to know this too.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm sure this has been brought up before but could not find a thread on it. Is it a proven fact that a garter snake eating mice will grow to be much larger then being on a worm diet? or is the only good thing about them eating mice is that it's cheaper and they get more calcium.

You are right, but! They are high in fat. I rotate mice, salmon and worms. I feed more worms since that is the more abundant food source in the wild for them.

[TheSnakeGuy1]

I would like to know that as well. I think that worm's have a bit more protein than mice.
-Alex

[Philminator]

ah ok well that one female I have ate another mouse today without scenting she is only 26" long say that was her full adult size i wonder now if I rotate worms and mice if she could keep growing and say hit 3 ft? :p or am I dreaming hehe

[guidofatherof5]

Personally speaking, size isn't everything.:D At least that has been my excuse.:D

You want her to grow healthy and a balance diet will give you the best of both worlds. Better to have her healthy.

[sirtalis01]

on a mice only diet they will grow a bit larger but they will also get to FAT if fed to much....mine are on mice since they will brumate they need the lil xtra fat for the winter. once they are out and up from brumation i will feed occasional fishs or worms but 90% of their diet is mice...

[GarterGeek]

Worms are about 80% percent water so they have a lot less substance than pinkies do. :)

[guidofatherof5]

Worms are about 80% percent water so they have a lot less substance than pinkies do. :)

That 20% must be some powerful stuff. My wild radix population eats mainly nightcrawlers and I've got a lot of big snakes around my house and neighborhood.

[Philminator]

I've never in my life seen a garter over 26" which is what I have of the 100's of garters I've seen they are either newborn babies lol or 20-24" I think it would be totally amazing owning a garter snake that is 36-48" what species are more likely to get that size?

[guidofatherof5]

T.s.parietalis(red-sided) gets large. I've got one at 36 inches. She's a great snake.

[Philminator]

wow that would be something to see. I hear the florida blue gets 4 ft then there is that thamnophis gigas I heard of but never seen other then a few pics doing google search

[ssssnakeluvr]

worms don't have much in them...mostly water, however ordinoides specialize in eating them. mice won't necessarily make them bigger, but provide more nourishment in a smaller package...they grow faster on mice. a lot of the species will grow over 2 feet, mainly the females. radix, wanderings, easterns, red sided, valleys.... i have a melanistic eastern that's about 43" and a florida blue around 36"

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am going to post my reply to your pm in here for everyone! saves me some typing :D

I would say that while a garter fed mice might grow faster depending on how often you feed it, it probably won't grow larger than one that is well fed with worms/fish, I just caught a 3 foot eastern 2 weeks ago by a lake where she's probably never eaten a mouse in her life! There are so many darned frogs and tadpoles and minnows there.... I have had young garters grow at lightning speed eating fish fillets. It also depends on their genetics, some garters are just genetically built to grow bigger than others. My hypo eastern I have had for 2 years now, and she just doesn't seem like she is going to grow into a monster, and I noticed all of the garters from that area tend to be smaller, while the easterns by brady's lake are all enormous and put any male northern water snake to shame. A snake never will truly max out, reptiles never stop growing, they just slow down as the get bigger and older. Multiple mice every week would probably make an adult garter fat and shorten it's life span. I personally don't agree with an all rodent diet for garters just because it's not what they naturally would eat, I prefer to do rodents one meal, fish the next, and every so often throw in some worms. BUT I am not against those who choose to feed that way in any way. It's just my personal choice to vary the diet.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

also I would like to add that worms may be made up of 80% water... but so are people!!! and, I would imagine, pinkies too!!!! I think worms are very nutritional for garters, especially well fed worms. Worms seek out soil and decaying plant matter that is RICH in nutrients. So their stomach contents are full of vitamins and minerals and lots of good stuff, it's not just all dirt!

[DavidD]

I start my babies on worm peices then slamon then pinkies, night crawlers and salmon. My adults get the most varied diet possible.
Mice
Rats
Quail
Lizards
Toads
Frogs
Worms
Salamanders
Anything WC is frozen for 2 weeks prior to feeding

[FunkyRes]

I have found a California Red-sided that was over 4 feet in length.
Most abundant prey was American Bullfrog.

Common garters (T sirtalis) at least on the west coast seem to largely be associated with streams and ponds where there are plenty of Rana to feed upon.

They also take rodents in the wild, but rodents undoubtedly make up a smaller portion of their diet.

If you have a lot of garters, varying the diet may be difficult, but if you only have a few I think it may be better for the snake to receive a variety of prey items similar to what they naturally feed upon.

I have no idea how much calcium worms have, but I wonder if garters fed upon mice grow faster / larger than worm fed because of the calcium in rodents. That could be why T sirtalis that feed largely upon Rana species naturally grow larger than species that are more prone to feed upon slugs and worms in the wild.

Large snakes are always neat, but I don't personally see a need to see how big I can get them to grow.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If you have a lot of garters, varying the diet may be difficult, but if you only have a few I think it may be better for the snake to receive a variety of prey items similar to what they naturally feed upon.




to add some input, I personally find varying the diet of my large collection easy. I manage it by simply thawing out a large portion of whatever's on the menu, and if it's fish, chop it up and feed everyone the same thing on one day, then the next feeding, something else. I make scenting cups in case some of the snakes don't like what I am feeding so that I can still convince them to eat it!!! that has worked out pretty well for me!

[Brewster320]

I've never in my life seen a garter over 26" which is what I have of the 100's of garters I've seen they are either newborn babies lol or 20-24" I think it would be totally amazing owning a garter snake that is 36-48" what species are more likely to get that size?

In NH I caught a Eastern that was 4+. It was a monster, girth wise it dwarfed most corn snakes. It also was an awesome shade of blue.

[mtolypetsupply]

According to beautifuldragons.com, earthworms are 10% protein, 2%fat and 84% water. They do not list any info for pinkies other than "very high in fat". No fish is listed.

Aswith other opportunistic feeders, varied diet seems best.

:)

[drache]

as far as I know there is some genetic component to how big garters (or anything) grows
it is certainly possible to stunt the growth of a creature to prevent them from reaching their potential size, but I doubt that even with the most optimal diet, one could surpass that genetic parameter
while I see that babies with a rodent preference grow noticeably faster than those with worm or fish preferences, I don't know that it necessarily limits their adult size not to eat rodents
to add - I believe that in the wild, food preferences may change seasonally, as well as with life and growth stages
I've noticed that some of my garters (the wc ones) will have different prey preferences at different times of the year

[BChambers]

One thing these threads often fail to mention is varying dietary preferences by SPECIES.I both agree and disagree with SLB on this basis. Many Thamnophis species seldom or never feed on rodents in the wild-on the other hand, some species/ssp. seldom or never feed on anything BUT rodents!

In the latter category I would place many populations of wandering, plains and checkered garters, as well as a few populations of sirtalis. These snakes are evolved to prey on rodents, and a constant rodent diet does not seem to do them any harm whatsoever. I personally have (for the last 20 years) started out all my baby marcianus on pinky pieces-almost never is any scenting required. All are fed rodents throughout their lives, and seemingly live a normal, reproductively active life span. Same with when I used to breed Blais Flames back in the 90s.

On the other hand, I don't think I'd try that with such species as ribbons, western aquatic, etc. They have evolved with a primarily fish and amphibian diet, and I've heard of problems from a rodent-only diet with these species. A lot of sirtalis subspecies would fall somewhere in between, and for these a varied diet is indicated.

In summary, I just think we would all do well to look carefully at how our animals "make a living" in the wild-our captives can't help but benefit.

[charles parenteau]

I met Dr Blais 15 years ago and at that time he was feeding mainly on rodent,so I introduce rodent to my garter snake and for long it was their main food source .BY experience I don't give rodent anymore.Their is lot of probleme related .
DrBlais show me the difference between captive bred specimen with wild caught .I cant explain it in detail but most probleme occur at long term and over generation.
In captivity female garter snake have smaller litter than wild one with the same size,but when you fed mainly on rodent more chance of incidence.
Slugs,dead babies,deformation,just few babies looking good ,these are the most related problem with rodent or when use heating pad.
I give trout jellow and worms to my garter snake,But I know on what they fed on in the wild And I think that the best ,the only thing good with jellow and rodent is very easy to us to get this food .

I know everything is about food and UV lighting!!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I often wonder what are some of the underlying causes of stillborn, deformed/kinked babies, high amounts of jellybeans and etc. Over the many, many clutches of garters I have seen born I have never seen a kinked baby in the flesh yet! And it's just weird to me because I see that they occur once or twice a season in some other's collections but I still have never seen one!

I don't intentionally provide any of my snakes with UV lighting, and only the ones in certain enclosures get any direct lighting on their cage at all. My snakeroom gets rather hot with only a few bulbs and the rack system running. I don't give my gravid females extra heat and I don't allow them to over eat. Some garters do eat rodents in the wild, and some are much more aquatic but overall, they are all opportunistic and have a varied diet to some extent and that is why I continue to vary the diet. My garters appear to "enjoy" the variations anyways!

[BChambers]

All I can say is that, in many years of breeding marcianus, I've VERY seldom had a stillborn baby, nor anything but the very occasional infertile ova. I've never fed anything but rodents, and never provided UV lighting. My checkereds are kept exactly like my other colubrids-in rack systems with a heat-tape "hot spot" at one end.

After two decades, and hundreds of snakes bred, I think I can at least say that for this one species (T. marcianus), neither UV lighting nor a varied diet is either necessary or desirable (inasmuch as fish, worms and amphibians have a much greater potential of introducing harmful pathogens than frozen/thawed rodents).

I can't, of course, say anything about other species/ssp of which I have much less direct experience.

[charles parenteau]

I give Uv light to gravid female that is very necessary at leat for the latter half of the pregnencie this is so important ,Uvb bulb is good and most of my snake have one.
BAd Food and lack of uv light are the main reasons for stillborn ,slugs ect.I Dont care about lighting for male.

Heating pad or rock are not good for gravid female should be avoid.

Uv fluorescent with and UVB bulb for heat are better .BUt do not overheat your female at the first stage of pregnencie .

UV light cant be replace by vitamine...better real uv than supplement.
uvb just provide heat ?..

[charles parenteau]

I was talking about sirtalis sirtalis,but dont really know about other species.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

All I can say is that, in many years of breeding marcianus, I've VERY seldom had a stillborn baby, nor anything but the very occasional infertile ova. I've never fed anything but rodents, and never provided UV lighting. My checkereds are kept exactly like my other colubrids-in rack systems with a heat-tape "hot spot" at one end.

After two decades, and hundreds of snakes bred, I think I can at least say that for this one species (T. marcianus), neither UV lighting nor a varied diet is either necessary or desirable (inasmuch as fish, worms and amphibians have a much greater potential of introducing harmful pathogens than frozen/thawed rodents).

I can't, of course, say anything about other species/ssp of which I have much less direct experience.

Yea!!! now my question is, why does it happen to some people, but not others?! you and I both feed differently but get the same results!

[BChambers]

Yea!!! now my question is, why does it happen to some people, but not others?! you and I both feed differently but get the same results!

I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but as an educated guess-I'd say that, while a varied diet may not be necessary, it is also not necessarily harmful-and in many cases may be beneficial-as long as the keeper (like yourself) is extremely careful about the issues of parasite transmission and thiaminase.

I know you keep and breed red-striped ribbons, and I would NEVER recommend feeding that species a rodent-only diet!:)

[BChambers]

I was talking about sirtalis sirtalis,but dont really know about other species.

It makes sense to me that your Quebec sirtalis may well find UV light very beneficial, while my marcianus do fine without it. Canadian sirtalis-indeed, all northern forms of Thamnophis, are primarily diurnal. They are adapted to lots of solar exposure due to the cold nights you experience, even in midsummer. Down here in Texas-and other hot, dry habitats- our garters don't dare show their faces when ol' sol is above the horizon! Most foraging, breeding etc is done at night.

Again, these things are easier to figure out if we look at how our snakes are living in a natural state.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't know the answer to your question for sure, but as an educated guess-I'd say that, while a varied diet may not be necessary, it is also not necessarily harmful-and in many cases may be beneficial-as long as the keeper (like yourself) is extremely careful about the issues of parasite transmission and thiaminase.

I know you keep and breed red-striped ribbons, and I would NEVER recommend feeding that species a rodent-only diet!:)

right now my holdback trio are getting a pinky or silverside strips every other feeding! The funny part is the first time I offered pinkies I did it without any scenting and they went CRAZY for them!!!

[BChambers]

right now my holdback trio are getting a pinky or silverside strips every other feeding! The funny part is the first time I offered pinkies I did it without any scenting and they went CRAZY for them!!!

Now that really surprises me -the ones from around here (Cibolo Creek, Kendall County, TX) turn up their noses at pinks!

[charles parenteau]

Right on,I agree with you.

I think that water snake and most garter snake should be feed with everything they eat in wild ,we denature their diet when giving rodent.
At first if you do the opposite of what they do in nature problems of any kind becomes inevitable.

Trout mixture is not found in nature but experience told me its better,this is the best alternative I think.DrBlais is in my mind a real master hes really on a other level,he was feeding his garter for years with rodent and he no longer doing this.I saw the change over the years.that enough to convice me .

Trout jellow can be as bad as rodent if you don't do it right,this is not mother nature ,its man made.Symptome for lack or overload of vitamine are almost the same.this method is not for everyone,only time will tell if you do it right.THat make big garter snake...but big garter snake don't mean healthy snake ,big litter ect,its just a big garter snake wich is cool...



-------------------------

It makes sense to me that your Quebec sirtalis may well find UV light very beneficial, while my marcianus do fine without it. Canadian sirtalis-indeed, all northern forms of Thamnophis, are primarily diurnal. They are adapted to lots of solar exposure due to the cold nights you experience, even in midsummer. Down here in Texas-and other hot, dry habitats- our garters don't dare show their faces when ol' sol is above the horizon! Most foraging, breeding etc is done at night.

Again, these things are easier to figure out if we look at how our snakes are living in a natural state.

[BChambers]

I agree with you on Blais-he used to drive down to the Syracuse, Ny Expo in the mid-90s, and he would stay with my wife and I (I was one of the guys putting on that show every year back then)-giving me not just the opportunity to pick his brain, but also first crack at all those cool flame babies he'd bring down! You're right, at the time he fed them on rodents (as did I), but I only bred flames for a couple generations, then got sidetracked by boas and Dendrobatids :rolleyes: