Possible seizures?

[finaldecember]

Honestly, I'm not sure what it was that I just saw Maja do about ten minutes ago. It looked like a massive seizure, but I could be wrong. Here's what I saw; hopefully it will help. She was thrashing wildly around her vivarium with her mouth wide open, often stretching all the way up to the screen lid before falling again or rolling onto her back. This lasted for maybe a minute and a half before she finally stopped.

At first, I thought that she had died, but when I reached into the viv and gently touched the end of her tail, she wiggled a bit and moved away so I couldn't touch her. I decided to pick her up just to make sure she hadn't injured herself and noticed that her mouth was full of substrate. Could this have happened during the seizure or could it be a possible cause?

I know that I should probably try to get the substrate out, but I don't have anything I could do that with and I'm afraid of hurting her. Also, when I was checking her over, instead of the usual 'Put me down now!' squirming, she was slowly letting her head fall backwards so that she was on her back. Any ideas of what I should do?

[gregmonsta]

Sounds like possible thiamine deficiency. What have you been feeding and have you adequately supplied vitamin supplements?

[jitami]

Really doesn't sound good... how's the snake doing now?

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like she needs to see a Vet ASAP. I lean heavily towards Greg's idea.
Has she returned to normal at all or is this a constant situation?

[finaldecember]

We'd been feeding her the only thing we could get her to eat, which was minnows. I tried to find out what kind of vitamin supplements to give and how to give them, but I couldn't find any information on that, so I wasn't able to. Yes, I tried worms and pinkies, but she would only take minnows.

Right now, she's stretched herself out a bit, but she's definitely not normal. She's barely breathing.

[finaldecember]

And the only herp vet in town isn't even open today.

[gregmonsta]

We'd been feeding her the only thing we could get her to eat, which was minnows. I tried to find out what kind of vitamin supplements to give and how to give them, but I couldn't find any information on that, so I wasn't able to.

Did you search this forum? There are many threads in which people list their dosing rituals. You must supplement vitamin b1 if feeding a purely fish diet. Powder forms of reptile/avain vitamin combinations are readily available. I myself use water-soluble vitamins (Reptasol) at a quarter the recommended dose at every water change.
Only a vitamin injection from the vet will help to alleviate the symptoms at an advanced stage. You have to get this seen to asap. If you can get an emergency appointment I would take it as the seizures can quickly lead to death (it puts a lot of strain on their systems).
Fingers crossed for her.

[jitami]

Sorry, I just read your signature and see that Maja is your keelback. I'm sorry the prognosis isn't better, but it really doesn't sound good at all. Just curious, how big/old is she and how long have you had her? The keelbacks tend to have a very high parasite load and can be difficult to keep due to the poor conditions they're taken from and kept in while importing. Hoping for a miracle for girl...

[Mommy2many]

Thoughts are with you and her. Needs a vet, ASAP. Hope you both do well. Prayers sent your way.

[jamromhem]

I would agree with those above. Minnows are not the best long term diet.

a good addition to a diet on occasion but not for every feeding.

most fish they "call" minnows can cause this deficiency and it does sound like that is the case.

Vet ASAP is a good plan of action. With hopes there is a good ending. I would include earthworms into the regular diet from any baitshop/petstore/walmart. and see about ordering some reptile calcium supplement online if there isn't a place near by to get it.

[finaldecember]

I've actually tried offering earthworms and I can't get her to show any interest. Not that she's been showing interest in food recently anyway. I'm so used to tease-feeding my ball python that not being able to tease-feed feels so strange.

[Didymus20X6]

Here's a question:

Does ingesting the thiaminase cause the deficiency, by destroying thiamine in the snake, or does the thiaminase simply rob the food item of the much-needed thiamine content? Can a thiamine-enriched food source counterbalance the ingestion of thiaminase?

[jamromhem]

no yes yes.

adding Vitamin b aka thiamine (think vitamin B) can counteract this problem from my understanding. the question is how much thiamine to add before you risk toxic levels? :P

That is something that is requiring more looking into..

the amount to add also depends on the amount of thiaminase in the fish.

I am pretty sure it is a matter of the breaking down.. though could be a matter of preventing absorption. I would have to re-look it up again. Though I think it is the prior.

If the prior is the case if I remember right. You would have to ensure that the thiamine level is sufficient to withstand the amount of thiaminase breakdown by time it gets to the snakes stomach and is digested enough for the snake to absorb the thiamine.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's a question:

Does ingesting the thiaminase cause the deficiency, by destroying thiamine in the snake, or does the thiaminase simply rob the food item of the much-needed thiamine content? Can a thiamine-enriched food source counterbalance the ingestion of thiaminase?

I don't think it's as easy as putting in extra good to cancel out the bad. The bad still is there.
This very issue was discussed in depth in another thread. I will they to find it and link to it.

[drache]

supplementing is tricky business
you should definitely get your snake onto a different diet, if she survives this - it sounds quite serious
I've never heard of xenochrophis taking worms - I don't think they do - but I had no trouble switching mine to frozen/thawed rodents

[mustang]

B1vitamens is what my vet said but i couldnt find capsuls so i switched diet...and vet asap!!! its tricky changing a diet but i changed mine from nothing to minows to pinkys!!! pm me if u nedd a stepby step instructions on how i did it! o take to VET look at the thread "tangs in trouble" maybe thats whats goin on!