garter/water snakes hybrid possiblities?

[ClosedCasket88]

would this work out ?
there closely related, live birth, same size when born and adult , both eat fish and such.????

[Cazador]

No chance. They're from different genera (plural of genus) and probably have a different number of chromosomes. They definitely wouldn't have the same genes in the same order, so their chromosomes wouldn't pair up properly after fertilization (assuming they would or could even mate). Genetically, they're way too different.

Rick

[rwgsnakes]

would a garter and ribbon work?

[Elliot]

Probably because they are both Thamnophis.

[Cazador]

Most of the time, two different species wouldn't even attempt to breed because of anatomical, behavioral, temporal, or geographic differences. Even if two different species actually copulate, formation of an embryo is extremely unlikely because of differences in fertilization mechanisms. If the sperm manages to penetrate the egg, it is then highly unlikely that they would have the same number/type of chromosomes. The number and type must match... 1/2 from the male and the same matching 1/2 from the female. The actual genes on the chromosomes pair up, and if genes are missing, kinks form on the chromosome that has too many genes. These misshapen chromosomes, then, don't replicate properly, and the embryo doesn't develop. If, however, there are only very minor differences, the embryo might continue to develop and either 1) die or during before birth, or 2) be born with reduced vigor/fitness. It is extremely rare that two different species ever produce offspring with even limited viability.

Mules are the classic exception. As I recall, the mother is a female horse, and the father is a male pony. The offspring (mules) are normally sterile. Once in a great while, fertile mules are born, but this too is due to mutated mutations.

After all this, the short answer is that ribbons and garters might be able to breed (particularily in captivity where competition is limited, and they're confined), but it's highly unlikely that they would produce viable offspring.

[stonyloam]

Actually a mule is the offspring of a female horse and a male donkey (I think that is probably what you meant), and a hinny is the offspring of a female donkey (jenny) and a male horse. I think that there have been a couple of cases where a mule has given birth, but it is extremely rare. I have lots of semi-useless information like this. What I want to know is who put the donkey up to it?

[Cazador]

Thanks for keeping the record straight, Terry. You're completely right. It's been a while, but I've owned two crosses between horses and ponies. We had a stud pony that was notorious for getting in with the mares when they were in heat. They just produced large ponies/small horses... not mules. I was thinking more about which was the mother/father in order to produce a mule :o.

[ClosedCasket88]

well i have confirmed breeding of these two, i guess there not compatible?
i was thinkin shell rpobly give still birth or sumthin if they wouldnt work out . ive always wondered about these two now i guess i know.
i caught lastweek what looked to be a ribbon/garter cross. its different from allthe garters around here and its neck was very skinny,almost vine like,less marking on the head and the black stripes goin down the back was real clean and no checkereed marking likes the garters around here.
but i hvatn found a ribbon snake in almost 10 year in these parts of PA. i was thinkin they might of just naturaly crossed with the garters around here and dissapeared . there just aint no ribons left around here.but i find these odd looking garters ????

[GarterGuy]

Probably is an Eastern Ribbon (T.sauritus ssp.), you don't see them as much as garters, they seem to be less adaptable to environmental changes and developement of their habitat then garters. Also they seem to rely on amphibians very highly in this area as a food source and as their numbers decrease, so do the ribbons. The garters opertunistic diet, allows it to survive better in these disturbed areas. If you've found an area that does support a good population of ribbons, that's great. Says there's a good population of amphibians there and that usually indicates a good and healthy environment.
Roy

[ClosedCasket88]

well there def not full blood ribbons that i see but something i very different about them , like i said there used to be ribons round here 10 some odd years ago when i was a kid but if they can integrade ok then i suspect thats whut these odd shaped and marked/colored "garters".im not sure ,
we gotta team up soon and go out roy, are you familiar with ridley creek state park? id like to check out soem spot in your neck of the woods as well. do yougo to the maryland reptile shows? i found a goldmine park thats perfect for al kindsa reptiles/amphibians right behind it

[GarterGuy]

RidleyCreek State Park, no never heard of it, but that's what the internet is for.:D Yeh, I hit the Maryland show every now and then....didn't realize there was herping around it though. Not much going on in my neck of the woods now.....everything is still got snow on it. I want to do some real heavy herping this year though, so we'll have to hook up and get out there!:cool:
Roy

[ClosedCasket88]

definately roy , im going out today , its suppose to be 65 , first nice day after this last snow n cold front we got so hopefully ill get lucky .my digi camera broke =( what am i to do ?
but yes roy behind the maryland show thers a township dump wich is a goldmine for all kindsa stuf due to theconcret clabs and cut down trees and evrything they throw down there . then thers a couple of hills down to the valley next to the river , once u get dwon to the rivers edge that u see over the 1-95 bridge thers ponds lakes, bogs , all kindsa water land area perefct for garters watersnakes , black rats , eastern milks n such.
you should def go down to this upcoming MD show , perfect time of the year lets just hope we get good weather that day .
and ridley creek state park is between me and you. its another goldmine for garters as well as other colonizers . its a good 4 mile radius of creek,ponds, lowland,highland, rocky areas , wooded area, cattailed/marsh areas, evrything for all kindsa reptiles youl find around here .im actualy headed up there today but i dotn know how good it will be considering im going around dinner when its the hottest part of the day . it doesnt get in the 60s till after 1;00 then hits 65ish around 4-6 oclock, im going outaround 4:30 to see what i can make of this trip.
ill keep ya posted. get ahold of me before this upcoming MD show , ill show u around, youl love it , bring a camera if your into photography of scenery and wildlife

[Thamnophis]

No chance. They're from different genera (plural of genus) and probably have a different number of chromosomes. They definitely wouldn't have the same genes in the same order, so their chromosomes wouldn't pair up properly after fertilization (assuming they would or could even mate). Genetically, they're way too different.

Rick

I agree with you, Rick. But there are always exceptions on rules. Think Pantherophis X Lampropeltis. I´ve bred the myself once and they gave marvelous young. But that was an experiment that I´ve done once and all the young now live in a terrarium of one of my brothers. And they wuill stay there till they die.

But Thamnophis X Nerodia... maybe it will work in some cases. Nerodia species X Thamnophis rufipunctatus?

[Thamnophis]

I would like to make a list of species that will produce hybrids for sure because it has happend already.

And next to that a list of species that might produce hybrids because they are close related, but of which it is not done yet.

And a list of species of which is thought it is not possible to produce hybrids.

So people who ave any experience with this, please write it down.

Personally I have no experience with hybrids of Thamnophis.

[KITKAT]

In general, animals of the same species but different subspecies will interbreed, and the offspring will be fertile.

Animals of different species but the same genus may interbreed, and the offspring may be fertile.

Animals of different species and different genera will very rarely interbreed, and the offspring will very rarely be fertile.


I would like to make a list of species that will produce hybrids for sure because it has happend already.

And next to that a list of species that might produce hybrids because they are close related, but of which it is not done yet.

And a list of species of which is thought it is not possible to produce hybrids.

So people who ave any experience with this, please write it down.

Personally I have no experience with hybrids of Thamnophis.

[ClosedCasket88]

interesting, ive also noticed that water snakes have a red and black tipped tongue , another simalarity between the two thatwoulda led me to belive it might work . i guess looks shapes sizes could be all the same but the genus and specific scientific difference just wont work .
i doubt it will work cause im sure there woulda beensome sort of natural integrade caught already .
first think i thought of was hmmm brown orange bands mixed with green stripes? could get interesting

[Cazador]

Hi Fons,

This is a neat idea. The "biological species concept" states that true species are unable to interbreed with one another in the wild. The barriers might be anatomical, genetic, behavioral, geographic separation, etc., so one should start by assuming that different species cannot interbreed. However, there are always exceptions to the rule, and sometimes things interbreed in captivity when they wouldn't in the wild. One could get a pretty good clue about which species are most likely to hybridize in captivity by looking at the phylogenetic charts in Rossman et al. to see which different species are most closely related. I don't have my book here at the office, or I'd have a quick look.

Rick

[adamanteus]

One shoudl start by assuming that different species cannot interbreed. However, there are always exceptions to the rule, and sometimes things interbreed in captivity when they wouldn't in the wild. Rick

Yeah, like the so called "Jungle Corn" half Corn Snake, half King Snake. Who came up with that combination? And why?

[ClosedCasket88]

yeah the last thing i woulda done is put my cornsnake in my kingsnake tank

[Thamnophis]

I take care of somejunglecorns in the zoo and they are very beautiful and strong. Very nice pets.
Which does not mean that everyone has to interbreed, but the snakes that are born are mostly okay.
We did not produce them ourselves, but this arre snakes that were found after they had escaped/dumped.
We also will not breed with them.
We have a large terrarium in the zoo in which a lot of Pantherophis live (guttatus, obsoletus). This are all snakes we got because they were found on the street or given to us because people would not take care of them anymore. This can lead to hybrids.
No problem, because we will throw away all eggs from these snakes.

@ Cazador... I agree with what you say. And I will take a close look at my Rossman book.

But what I am looking for is proven breeding between two species.And you always have to be carefull in what snakes you put together.

Problem sometimes is that people do not know what species they have. And this can lead to accidental hybrids.

[Mike Spencer]

I believe you actually could breed Thamnophis with Nerodia. They're both very closely related live bearing snakes. And as someone mentioned that they can't because they're different genus...people breed Lampropeltis with Elaphe, Lampropeltis with Pituophis, etc. There was a wild Lampropeltis getula californiae X Pituophis catenifer catenifer found in California in 2005. I believe they are just as far apart as Thamnophis and Nerodia...

Now, I definitely don't condone the mixing of them, I just believe that is possible.

[bsol]

Man you went deep in the forum to find this old post!!!
It doesnt make any difference how close or far the wild Lampropeltis getula californiae X Pituophis catenifer catenifer mix found in California are related. Just like it doesnt make a difference how great the Thamnophis and Nerodia are apart. Its been outlined that the odds are not in favor of positive results.

[Brewster320]

I agree with it being possible. The woma python has been crossed with the ball python several times and its amazing not only that they are from different genera but the woma has no heat pits and looks more colubrid than python. Also the black rat snake has been crossed with the twainese beauty snake, these two snakes are seperated by millions of years of evolution compared to the only several thousand years water snakes and garters have been seperated. The odds for these two crosses were also incredibly unlikely yet they have been proven. This I think makes the likely hood of a water x garter snake much more likely.