Was a bit worried about a new arrival.

[GradStudentLeper]

So, I am visiting my best friend in Ft. Lauderdale, and we were at a local herp shop. They had a wild caught Nerodia fasciata. A gorgeous and even friendly animal. However he was a bit thin and dehydrated. Against my better judgement I forked over 15 bucks and obtained the snake.

I got him home and put him in his temporary quarters (a tupperware container), put some water in it (so he could soak and drink etc) and then decided to see if he would eat. He was obviously stressed afterall.

4 screaming leopard frogs later (I can still hear them crying...) and I am no longer worried about the snake, who I have named Jaws...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v290/AlyriumDenryle/DSC00590.jpg

There he is, with 4 little frogs inside him.

[Zephyr]

Screaming frogs. XD
I'd drop the thing if a frog ever did that to me.

[GradStudentLeper]

Screaming frogs. XD
I'd drop the thing if a frog ever did that to me.

It is one of my favorite sounds.

Then again there is a reason I actually study the predator-prey interactions between frogs and natricine snakes...

[guidofatherof5]

Nice save. Beautiful snake.

I'll give you $17.50 for it. That's with shipping of course.:D

I'm getting a pair of Hypo's on Thursday. Can't wait.:)

[GradStudentLeper]

Nice save. Beautiful snake.

I'll give you $17.50 for it. That's with shipping of course.:D

I'm getting a pair of Hypo's on Thursday. Can't wait.:)

He is mine. Not for sale. I have already become attached. The funny part is, the little lumps you see are frog legs. :)

[Mommy2many]

Nice looking water snake.

[pitbulllady]

That's a nice-looking Banded! It is amazing just how variable this species is, appearance-wise, even those from the same area. I've got three, and they look nothing at all alike; even the belly markings are different. Within the week-old clutch that my hypo female just had, I can pick out probably four different "types", in terms of coloration and pattern. Of the three adults I have, two were extremely calm and docile from the get-go, even though I basically obtained all three fresh out of the wild. One would head-flatten and "pancake" for the first day, and made one sideways jab at my hand with her head(mouth closed) the first time I reached in her enclosure and picked her up, but none have musked(and I'd rather be bitten, honestly, than skunked-blood washes out of clothes a whole lot easier)as though to try and scare me into thinking she'd bite, but that was the extent of her defensiveness. My most recently-acquired Banded ate an unscented mouse a couple of days ago, apparently taking a cue from the Midland, who will eat ANYTHING you put in front of her on tongs, including a still-hot low-fat Vienna sausage that my brother made the mistake of sticking in her face, and that I had to get away from her(taking food, or what THEY consider food, from a Water Snake is easier said than done). They are really great snakes, and are terribly underrated and underappreciated. I wish I had a dime for every herper, especially field herpers, who have told me that these snakes are all, without exception, the meanest, nastiest, stinkiest, and most untamable snakes they've ever dealt with, bar none, and that includes many venomous keepers. I just haven't see it, and I've handled a lot of 'em. Besides, I don't have to make a nearly four-hour round trip drive to get mice for them(that's how far the rodent breeder who supplies me with mice and rats lives), since I can just pick up Salmon or Tilipia at the supermarket on the way home from work; I mean, that's almost as easy and convenient as buying food for your cat or dog!
Mine would probably like a frog or two now and then, but I honestly cannot remember the last time I saw a frog or toad, other than at reptile shows, and it's not because my memory is bad, either. They have just disappeared from around here. It's been a couple of years since I heard Spring Peepers, and I heard a Green Tree for the first time today in the entire summer(it was raining)in the town where I work. It's kinda sad and rather disturbing actually, that the frogs are gone. When I was a kid, my Hognoses lived "high on the hog", as we say, but I haven't seen any of THEM in years, either, since there's nothing for them to eat.

[GradStudentLeper]

Update: Another frog and a few days later, and this is probably the largest fecal mass I have ever seen. He is in temporary accommodations now (A tupperware container, open when i am in the room, closed when not... paper towel substrate, basking light, water bowl and a hiding spot... no escape attempts)

They are probably (well, the entire genus really) my favorite snakes in the universe. Garters are awesome, but nerodia take the cake. I have never met one I didnt like, and their reputation as aggressive is entirely undeserved. It all depends on how you handle them. If you act like a predator, roughly gripping them around the head or tail, yeah... they will be pissed off. If you are gentle though, even the most aggressive snake wont bite you, and only might musk you a little (I have actually grown to like the smell of musk. It is so familiar it is comforting). This particular snake I can pat on the head with a finger, and stroke like Dr. Evil strokes Mr. Bigglesworth...

As for the frogs, do you live in an urban area? I live in Arlington Texas, and the number of frogs I hear depends greatly on where exactly I am. Anywhere near a golf course or pond and I cant go out in the spring without hearing at least four species. That may be because there are a lot of urban parks (including several creeks and rivers that are maintained in a natural state) crisscrossing the area. It allows me to feed my little babies what they like most (though the staple of their diet is still small live fish of various types)

[pitbulllady]

Update: Another frog and a few days later, and this is probably the largest fecal mass I have ever seen. He is in temporary accommodations now (A tupperware container, open when i am in the room, closed when not... paper towel substrate, basking light, water bowl and a hiding spot... no escape attempts)

They are probably (well, the entire genus really) my favorite snakes in the universe. Garters are awesome, but nerodia take the cake. I have never met one I didnt like, and their reputation as aggressive is entirely undeserved. It all depends on how you handle them. If you act like a predator, roughly gripping them around the head or tail, yeah... they will be pissed off. If you are gentle though, even the most aggressive snake wont bite you, and only might musk you a little (I have actually grown to like the smell of musk. It is so familiar it is comforting). This particular snake I can pat on the head with a finger, and stroke like Dr. Evil strokes Mr. Bigglesworth...

As for the frogs, do you live in an urban area? I live in Arlington Texas, and the number of frogs I hear depends greatly on where exactly I am. Anywhere near a golf course or pond and I cant go out in the spring without hearing at least four species. That may be because there are a lot of urban parks (including several creeks and rivers that are maintained in a natural state) crisscrossing the area. It allows me to feed my little babies what they like most (though the staple of their diet is still small live fish of various types)

No, I'm in a very rural area. Three of the largest cities anywhere nearby probably wouldn't have the size or population of Arlington, TX, combined. This is a very agricultural region. Thing is, there's no standing water, not permanent, anyway. No ponds, no drainage ditches, no small streams. There's a river about six miles away, but the only spot with public fishing access is a very dangerous hang-out for gangs and crack-heads(yeah, we have those out here in the sticks, too), so it would not be safe hunting frogs under the bridge there. We have had several years of drought conditions, which have still not really been resolved even though this summer has seen fairly average rainfall, so the little marshy areas where frogs used to breed dried up long ago. I know that that has something to do with the scarcity of amphibians, but I don't know if there are other factors, too.

As for the way most herpers catch Water Snakes, yeah, it's no wonder they get bitten all the time. When your technique is basically a modified version of a hawk's "swoop and kill", I mean, DUH! That's how most people catch these snakes, just run up grab it, usually as roughly as possible. I slide my hand underneath and lift up, and rather than grab and restrain the snake, I just keep moving my hands underneath it to control its movement and sort of let it "run". The snake will quickly figure out that I'm not trying to eat it and settle down, and once that point is reached, you can basically just handle them like a Corn or any other snake that is generally thought of as a docile "beginnger's pet" species. I've never had one that took more than 12 hours to become completely tame. Every bite I've gotten from a Nerodia, with the exception of one little Northern that spazzed out over the approach of a very large timber wolf at a reptile show, has been a feeding response where the snake simply missed the intended target and got my hand instead, but that pales in comparison to the feeding response bite I got from a 6 1/2-foot Emerald Tree Boa several years ago, where I could actually hear those switchblade teeth grating on the bone and had to pour vinegar in her mouth to get her to turn loose and stop constricting my arm.

[GradStudentLeper]

Oh that explains it. Amphibians dont handle agricultural runoff very well. Not much standing water and any that is there is full of pesticides and other agrochemicals that can do things like sex-reverse the frogs, screw up reproductive pathways etc. Frogs would be better off in an urban area than an agricultural region...

A friend and I caught three more Fasciata last night along I 75. Only one of them so much as musked when my friend grabbed him (and he got bit twice). The others are already holdable...

The one I got the other day (the rescue) will curl up on my lap for an hour while I watch Babylon 5...

[pitbulllady]

Oh that explains it. Amphibians dont handle agricultural runoff very well. Not much standing water and any that is there is full of pesticides and other agrochemicals that can do things like sex-reverse the frogs, screw up reproductive pathways etc. Frogs would be better off in an urban area than an agricultural region...

A friend and I caught three more Fasciata last night along I 75. Only one of them so much as musked when my friend grabbed him (and he got bit twice). The others are already holdable...

The one I got the other day (the rescue) will curl up on my lap for an hour while I watch Babylon 5...

Mine love to curl up on my lap while I watch tv, too, without being restrained. My hypo girl has sat through entire NASCAR races, including the cautions and double-file re-starts. Even Boas aren't that laid-back. Her babies are taking frozen-thawed pinkies and salmon strips right from my fingers. These are just the perfect pet snakes, and with the various color mutations popping up, I have a hunch that Nerodia are going to be the "Next Big Thing" in captive-bred snakes.

I'd suspected that agriculture was responsible for the scarcity of frogs around here. The only frogs I've even heard, which were Green Tree Frogs, were in town. Farmers drain off any places with standing water out in the country, and those agricultural pesticides have done the rest. I used to see toads all over the place when I was a kid living out here, but then, there was standing water in the "bottom lands" where they could breed, that has all since been drained, plus we've had several really bad drought years in a row. Our rainfall yearly totals have only just now, this year, gotten back on track, but that's only just for some areas. Parts of the state are still in drought conditions.

[GradStudentLeper]

Mine love to curl up on my lap while I watch tv, too, without being restrained. My hypo girl has sat through entire NASCAR races, including the cautions and double-file re-starts. Even Boas aren't that laid-back. Her babies are taking frozen-thawed pinkies and salmon strips right from my fingers. These are just the perfect pet snakes, and with the various color mutations popping up, I have a hunch that Nerodia are going to be the "Next Big Thing" in captive-bred snakes.

On the one hand, that would be good for wild populations. On the other hand, you know my loathing of rack systems... I dont like living things being treated as "products", essentially living objects mass produced like dogs in a puppy mill, which exactly how a lot of snakes in the hobby are probably bred (apply capitalism to a living thing and mass production is what you get given sufficient time). I am a tad leary of the genetics involved in the selective breeding of morphs... Breeders can be pretty shady, and a lot of lines are inbred and have no heterozygosity that is worth mentioning. I dont want to see that happening to my favorite taxa. Plus, the demand for the snakes in general with spur on commercial collection Right now they are caught by individuals for their own collections, and by universities... With heavy pet demand they will be collected commercially.

[FunkyRes]

Nerodia will not be the next big thing.
They are already illegal in CA and it would not surprise me if they became illegal elsewhere where they are not native.

Like Bullfrogs, they are an invasive threat where they are not native - an invasive threat that can do considerable damage to local fish, amphibian, and reptile fauna.

[GradStudentLeper]

Nerodia will not be the next big thing.
They are already illegal in CA and it would not surprise me if they became illegal elsewhere where they are not native.

Like Bullfrogs, they are an invasive threat where they are not native - an invasive threat that can do considerable damage to local fish, amphibian, and reptile fauna.

The same can be said for domestic cats...

[pitbulllady]

Nerodia will not be the next big thing.
They are already illegal in CA and it would not surprise me if they became illegal elsewhere where they are not native.

Like Bullfrogs, they are an invasive threat where they are not native - an invasive threat that can do considerable damage to local fish, amphibian, and reptile fauna.

Just about EVERYTHING is illegal in California, including ferrets, hamsters, gerbils and many other species that are a staple of the pet trade. Why would it make any sense to ban Nerodia while allowing sales of really exotic snakes and lizards from other parts of the world? Are Corn Snakes and Rat Snakes permitted as pets? Are THEY native to California? Not the last time I checked, they weren't. I'm not advocating that, since you know that my belief is that the most dangerous words in a democratic society are "there ought to be a law". It's scary to me, living on the opposite side of the continent, that anyone would look to California as an example of animal-related laws. The HSUS and PETA are pretty much in control of the law makers there when it comes to animal-related law. I'm honestly surprised that cats and dogs are legal, but then, there have been two attempts to force mandatory spay/neuter of all cats and dogs over the age of four months, statewide, ignoring the huge upsurge in shelter uptake and abandonments wherever these laws have been passed locally, so the effort is at least underway to prevent the breeding and selling of those animals within the state of CA, for their own good, of course. Now, to be fair, there are a lot of states back east where it's illegal to own NATIVE snakes, including Georgia. You can't have a Water Snake there, or a Corn, or a Chain King, or an Eastern Garter or Ribbon, not even a captive-bred morph. And, pretty much every legislative term, my home state of SC has to do battle with all-around "exotic"-banning bills backed by several AR groups. It's like an insidious cancer, really.

[FunkyRes]

The same can be said for domestic cats...

Except they are cute a furry.

[FunkyRes]

Just about EVERYTHING is illegal in California, including ferrets, hamsters, gerbils and many other species that are a staple of the pet trade. Hamsters are legal here.
Why would it make any sense to ban Nerodia while allowing sales of really exotic snakes and lizards from other parts of the world? Are Corn Snakes and Rat Snakes permitted as pets? Are THEY native to California? Not the last time I checked, they weren't. African clawed frogs were banned after they became established.
American Bullfrogs are still legal
Nerodia were banned after they became established (several localities) - corn snakes are a far more common pet yet they are not established, so something about our ecosystem probably interferes with establishment of corn snakes in the wild.

Nerodia OTOH have not only become established, but have become established in the California Valley dangerously close to Giant Garter Snake populations.

One of the factors with Nerodia is that they do not make great pets. Despite experiences relayed here, they can be extremely nasty and they really stink. So they frequently are released. Now they are breeding in several locales.
I'm not advocating that, since you know that my belief is that the most dangerous words in a democratic society are "there ought to be a law". It's scary to me, living on the opposite side of the continent, that anyone would look to California as an example of animal-related laws. Our laws are better than, say, Georgia - but yes, we do have some restrictive laws. Ferrets are illegal because of fear that they will become established and damage farmland. Gerbils are illegal I believe because they fear they will become established in the desert and harm some desert species. Nerodia have the same issue, and the fact that there are several established Nerodia populations warrants their banning in the pet trade.

We (keepers) screwed up. We did not discourage newbies from keeping them, and now they pose a threat to an already seriously threatened native Garter Snake.

[Stefan-A]

Ferrets are illegal because of fear that they will become established and damage farmland.
Well that's two dots I'm having a bit of trouble connecting. Farmland?

[FunkyRes]

Well that's two dots I'm having a bit of trouble connecting. Farmland?

Yes - California has quite a bit of farmland. The entire Sacramento River Valley and San Joaquin River Valley are largely farmland. Our specialties are fruits, nuts, and rice - but we grow lots of other stuff too, quite a bit of corn for example. We also have a lot of livestock - including chickens, and I believe it is chicken that have the biggest issue with ferrets.

[Stefan-A]

Yes - California has quite a bit of farmland. The entire Sacramento River Valley and San Joaquin River Valley are largely farmland. Our specialties are fruits, nuts, and rice - but we grow lots of other stuff too, quite a bit of corn for example. We also have a lot of livestock - including chickens, and I believe it is chicken that have the biggest issue with ferrets.
Well, it would have to be the chickens, since ferrets are obligate carnivores. "Strange" that nobody's worried about what the livestock might cause.

[FunkyRes]

Well, it would have to be the chickens, since ferrets are obligate carnivores. "Strange" that nobody's worried about what the livestock might cause.

Actually there is concern, at least in more recent history. Cattle grazing in some areas is limited and regulated because it is believed that over grazing has contributed to toad declines, etc. But back to Nerodia and invasive species, not all species have demonstrated an ability to become invasive. Nerodia has, hence the ban on them. Three different species have become established, so it is a very adaptive genus. They are working on extirpating one population now and hopefully will extirpate others. With our serious decline in native frogs, several species of garter that are endangered or threatened, several species of fish that are endangered or threatened, the additional pressure of Nerodia is something we do not need. They were not banned in the state until after they demonstrated their invasive nature.

Their invasive nature may also become a problem in states that natively have Nerodia as non native populations would compete with and possibly hybridize with native (like what has happened in CA with our Tiger Salamanders - most remaining populations are actually hybrids). I expect Nerodia may become banned in the pet trade in many states before too long.

[GradStudentLeper]

The HSUS and PETA are pretty much in control of the law makers there when it comes to animal-related law. I'm honestly surprised that cats and dogs are legal, but then, there have been two attempts to force mandatory spay/neuter of all cats and dogs over the age of four months, statewide, ignoring the huge upsurge in shelter uptake and abandonments wherever these laws have been passed locally, so the effort is at least underway to prevent the breeding and selling of those animals within the state of CA, for their own good, of course.

Not to side with PETA (the HSUS does good work and isnt comprised of crazy people), but I would support mandatory spay and neuter laws unless you have a breeding permit. Domestic cats and dogs are some of the most damaging invasive organisms the world has ever seen, and we do not need any more of them running around.

People cannot actually be trusted to make good decisions on their own unless forced or given some sort of incentive. This is the reason we have abandoned animals in the first place, or "house cats" which are let out at night which decimate bird and lizard populations.


Now, to be fair, there are a lot of states back east where it's illegal to own NATIVE snakes, including Georgia. You can't have a Water Snake there, or a Corn, or a Chain King, or an Eastern Garter or Ribbon, not even a captive-bred morph.

You have a copy of the legislation there? In most states that have such laws there is an explicit exemption for captive bred animals.


It's like an insidious cancer, really.

Why? To play devil's advocate, there are a lot of species (like large pythons) which the cast majority of people who get them should never be allowed to touch. If there are mechanisms in place to allow competant people to own these snakes, I see no problem with restrictions on a lot of "exotic" organisms. FOr three reasons:

1) Animals are often not cared for properly. They are NOT property, they are living things with their own interests. As keepers we have an obligation to treat them well, and this SHOULD be legally enforced.

2) Many exotics are collected commercially without regard for sustainable use from their native environments. Many like turtles and snakes do not breed in sufficient numbers to withstand this collection.

3) When people get bored of these animals they get released (or unscrupulous importers decide to release them into the local park), and become invasive. Do I need to go into why this is bad?

It is one thing to say "there ought to be a law" when the interests involved are strictly personal. For example, if someone were to say "there ought to be a law" that restricts my right to conduct my personal life as I choose, or that seeks to enforce something trivial like how I paint my house or let my yard become a mini-nature preserve that is one thing. If however the interests involve extend beyond petty tastes and personal morality, such as the care and maintenance of our environment and enforcing standards of humane care of animals kept as pets; such as protecting local ecosystems from biological invasion, or preventing neglect of animals which cannot defend themselves, then by all means... There ought to be a Law, and that law needs to be enforced.

If that means there are restrictions on what species people can own without specialized permits in particular regions based on species invasiveness, so be it.


Why would it make any sense to ban Nerodia while allowing sales of really exotic snakes and lizards from other parts of the world?

Because a lot of those organisms cannot survive in CA, while nerodia can. Not only can they survive, but they will directly compete with the native garter snakes which are for the most part (sirtalis, ordinoides and elegans not withstanding) aquatic specialists which will get their ecological butts handed to them by water snakes, to say nothing of what introduced nerodia will do to native frogs which are for the most part ALL imperilled.


One of the factors with Nerodia is that they do not make great pets.

Only when not taken care of... but that describes the majority of people who keep reptiles.

[pitbulllady]

Not to side with PETA (the HSUS does good work and isnt comprised of crazy people), but I would support mandatory spay and neuter laws unless you have a breeding permit. Domestic cats and dogs are some of the most damaging invasive organisms the world has ever seen, and we do not need any more of them running around.

People cannot actually be trusted to make good decisions on their own unless forced or given some sort of incentive. This is the reason we have abandoned animals in the first place, or "house cats" which are let out at night which decimate bird and lizard populations.


You have a copy of the legislation there? In most states that have such laws there is an explicit exemption for captive bred animals.



Why? To play devil's advocate, there are a lot of species (like large pythons) which the cast majority of people who get them should never be allowed to touch. If there are mechanisms in place to allow competant people to own these snakes, I see no problem with restrictions on a lot of "exotic" organisms. FOr three reasons:

1) Animals are often not cared for properly. They are NOT property, they are living things with their own interests. As keepers we have an obligation to treat them well, and this SHOULD be legally enforced.

2) Many exotics are collected commercially without regard for sustainable use from their native environments. Many like turtles and snakes do not breed in sufficient numbers to withstand this collection.

3) When people get bored of these animals they get released (or unscrupulous importers decide to release them into the local park), and become invasive. Do I need to go into why this is bad?

It is one thing to say "there ought to be a law" when the interests involved are strictly personal. For example, if someone were to say "there ought to be a law" that restricts my right to conduct my personal life as I choose, or that seeks to enforce something trivial like how I paint my house or let my yard become a mini-nature preserve that is one thing. If however the interests involve extend beyond petty tastes and personal morality, such as the care and maintenance of our environment and enforcing standards of humane care of animals kept as pets; such as protecting local ecosystems from biological invasion, or preventing neglect of animals which cannot defend themselves, then by all means... There ought to be a Law, and that law needs to be enforced.

If that means there are restrictions on what species people can own without specialized permits in particular regions based on species invasiveness, so be it.


Because a lot of those organisms cannot survive in CA, while nerodia can. Not only can they survive, but they will directly compete with the native garter snakes which are for the most part (sirtalis, ordinoides and elegans not withstanding) aquatic specialists which will get their ecological butts handed to them by water snakes, to say nothing of what introduced nerodia will do to native frogs which are for the most part ALL imperilled.



Only when not taken care of... but that describes the majority of people who keep reptiles.


Actually, there have been several court cases in which it has been proven that animals ARE property. We are guaranteed the right to own property in the Constitution, by limited the government's ability to take said property without due process or compensation, and indeed, this very thing has been the basis on challenges in courts of law in which the state of animals as property has been upheld.

As for the HSUS "not being comprised of crazy people", you obviously know little of the HSUS! They are currently working to BAN ALL REPTILES, nationwide-did you know that? They are every bit as radical in their beliefs as PETA-no pets, no animal agriculture, no animal research, no animal breeding, no consuming of any animal products. Wayne Pacelle is on record as stating, "One generation and OUT. We have no problem with the extinction of domesticated animals" and "If I had my choice, I would not want to see another cat or dog born". HSUS is solidly behind the proposed python bans now in the US Senate and House, and make no mistake, they are NOT our allies if we choose to keep herps of any kind. They do not operate any animal shelters, nor do they provide any funding for local shelters/humane societies, and THIS is why so many people believe that they "do good things for animals" when they are about MAKING MONEY for themselves and their lobbiests, period.
You can find out plenty about this radical Animal Rights/Animal Liberation organization, which has been accurately described as "PETA with nicer suits and more-expensive watches" at AnimalScam | Activist Groups (http://www.animalscam.com/organizations.cfm) or join the Yahoo Group, Pet Law, which tracks anti-animal, anti-owner laws, including BSL and laws aimed at prohibiting the keeping of all "exotics"(not cats or dogs), including reptiles. Anyone who supports the HSUS and keeps, breeds, sells, or buys herps is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Here's a site with some of the quotes from the Animal Rights leaders, including Mr. Pacelle of the HSUS, and his right-hand man, convicted felon arsonist and former(?) member of the domestic terrorist group, AFL, John Goodwin: http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/animalrightsquotes.htm .

Here, you can read the HSUS position on keeping reptiles as pets, or in captivity, period-for yourself: http://www.highbeam.com/doc.1P3-87110160.html and see the USARK's blog on the HSUS here: Home of the Reptile Nation — Reptile Nation Blog - USARK (http://usark.org/blog/?=210) . HSUS counts on people being mislead by the "humane" word in their name, when in fact, they're nothing of the sort. Keep in mind that they, along with PETA, DEMANDED the deaths of the Michael Vick dogs, stating that they could not be rehabilitates, and indeed, have slaughtered every "pit bull" they've gotten their filthy hands on, even newborn puppies, as being "too vicious"-check out Blue Dog State (http://bluedogstate.blogspot.com) for updates on how well they "take care" of dogs. I know of people who personally witnessed HSUS death squads, following Hurricane Katrina, killing animals by the thousands, while soliciting money to take care of the poor, abandoned animals left behind when their owners fled the storm's waters, and of course, in the days immediately following the seizure of Michael Vick's dogs, they were busy soliciting donations to help care for them, too, even though they did not have custody of the dogs! When several dog advocacy groups called them out on this, THEN they insisted that the dogs be destroyed! Do not be scammed by this, the richest Animal Rights organization on the planet.

[GradStudentLeper]

Actually, there have been several court cases in which it has been proven that animals ARE property. We are guaranteed the right to own property in the Constitution, by limited the government's ability to take said property without due process or compensation, and indeed, this very thing has been the basis on challenges in courts of law in which the state of animals as property has been upheld.

There is a difference between what is legal and what is right. There are a lot of laws on the books (my lack of civil rights for one) that are flat out wrong.

There are also laws which have been held up as constitutional demanding fair and humane treatment of animals. Or have you not noticed that many municipal law enforcement entities have special units for dealing with animal cruelty cases. State and federal governments also have laws protecting animals from mistreatment.

So yes. While legally animals are property, morally they are not (unless you want to get into an argument about that with me), and even though they are considered property that does not stop governments from imposing restrictions on what you can do to them. Nor does it restrict governments from putting a priori restrictions on what animals you are allowed to own in the first place.

As for the HSUS... the More i Know. As for the rest, i am well aware of them. I do animal research and if the local PETA/ALF etc chapter knew about what I do for a living, they would want my head posted on a pike.

[MichaelSmith]

One of the best things herp hobbyists (everywhere, not just in the US) could do would be to form an organization that would truly work to educate members and the public and put together a strong set of ethical standards. The standards should specify that herps must never be released after being in captivity, except as part of organized repatriation efforts. They should spell out some sort of limits on collecting from the wild that allow some personal collecting but severely limit commercial collecting. They should also spell out some categories of herps that could only be kept after some sort of certification that weeds out all the idiots that keep a Burmese python in a busted crate from which they inevitably escape and constrict the family's toddler (also weeds out those with a few bucks to get a cobra or puff adder but too few IQ points to safely keep it).

Voluntary self-policing might save us from being regulated in ways we don't like.

[GarterGeek]

The standards should specify that herps must never be released after being in captivity, except as part of organized repatriation efforts. They should spell out some sort of limits on collecting from the wild that allow some personal collecting but severely limit commercial collecting.

There are actually laws in places that do that! In my state, it is legal to collect native wildlife, but illegal to sell any creatures native to the state. :)

[MichaelSmith]

There are actually laws in places that do that! In my state, it is legal to collect native wildlife, but illegal to sell any creatures native to the state. :)

I think there are laws in a number of states along those lines. However, they are not particularly enforced (as far as I know) and probably widely ignored. My point was to cultivate the belief among herpers that that sort of thing is unacceptable.

[GarterGeek]

I think there are laws in a number of states along those lines. However, they are not particularly enforced (as far as I know) and probably widely ignored. My point was to cultivate the belief among herpers that that sort of thing is unacceptable.

Sure. I just thought I'd mention it - in case you weren't aware. I didn't know about it 'till a couple months ago. :)

[drache]

You have a copy of the legislation there? In most states that have such laws there is an explicit exemption for captive bred animals.
not so - most states have as few exemptions as they can get away with, because . . .

I think there are laws in a number of states along those lines. However, they are not particularly enforced (as far as I know) and probably widely ignored.
. . . most states have no budget for this sort of thing