Frogs?????

[k2l3d4]

I keep hearing people mention frogs as food..... What kind of frogs? I would like to add more variety to my checkereds diet.... They have turned their spoiled little noses up at night crawlers, and salmon/ tilapia,.... adn they are not liking the feeder fish lately, and I switched brands of Pinkie mice and I am having issues wiht them about that ..... argggg.... spoiled children are driving me nuts.....:rolleyes:;):eek:

[k2l3d4]

Bump!!! anyone?

[Stefan-A]

Is it really necessary to bump after half an hour? :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

I keep hearing people mention frogs as food..... What kind of frogs? I would like to add more variety to my checkereds diet.... They have turned their spoiled little noses up at night crawlers, and salmon/ tilapia,.... adn they are not liking the feeder fish lately, and I switched brands of Pinkie mice and I am having issues wiht them about that ..... argggg.... spoiled children are driving me nuts.....:rolleyes:;):eek:

It sounds like w/c frogs. I won't feed those for one main reason. Parasites. I know that many snakes live just fine with them but in the end the snake pays the price. If I could find frozen frogs I might consider them. With so many other safe foods available I won't run the risk.

Kady, You do have spoiled snakes but we know whos fault that is, don't we.:D
I think your snakes would sing a different tune if they went without food for a week. It won't hurt them at all but it's you I'm worried about. When they get hungry enough, those worms and off brand pinkies will taste pretty darn good. :D Hunger usually wins!

[k2l3d4]

Yeah... Steve we do know whos fault that is... They are too darn cute though :) and I am asking because hudinie is on a two week hunger strike as of yet....

[Didymus20X6]

They sound like Morris the Cat from those old commercials, who wouldn't eat anything but 9 Lives.

My cousin used to have a saying about that, though: "I bet if you didn't feed him for 2 weeks, he'd eat a peanut butter jelly sandwich!"

[GarterGeek]

My snakes are wild caught so I feed them live frogs every now and then. Anything the appropriate size and without much color would probably be fine.

I'm not sure, but I've heard that if you freeze a dead frog for thirty days all the parasite will be killed.

[Didymus20X6]

I'm not even sure it would take that long. Freezing organic matter causes water inside to crystalize, which destroys cell membranes and does pretty bad damage to whatever is being frozen. Of course, the longer the crystals are given to form, the worse the damage becomes. We call this phenomenon "freezer burn."

Have you ever taken a plastic bottle full of water and put it in the freezer? Unless you leave room in the bottle for the ice to expand, the bottle will break. This is pretty much what happens when a cell becomes frozen.

A month would certainly give the ice crystals plenty of time to pretty much eradicate anything living within the organism, but I'm willing to bet that few organisms would survive more than a few days after being frozen.

Please note: I am not a professional biologist. I just watch a lot of Good Eats with Alton Brown.

[DrKate]

I'm willing to bet that few organisms would survive more than a few days after being frozen.
For normal cells, you're absolutely right about the ice crystals destroying membranes. (BTW: I love Alton Brown!) So for bacteria and adult worms and things, this is true. But there are parasite egg and cyst stages that can survive freezing very well (their cell structures are resistant to the ice crystal formation and damage). I don't know why longer-term freezing kills these things when short-term freezing doesn't - it might just be that they eventually starve to death inside the dead, inactive host tissue. But anyway, it's those kinds of parasites that you're worried about when you freeze for a month instead of a day.

[GradStudentLeper]

I keep hearing people mention frogs as food..... What kind of frogs? I would like to add more variety to my checkereds diet.... They have turned their spoiled little noses up at night crawlers, and salmon/ tilapia,.... adn they are not liking the feeder fish lately, and I switched brands of Pinkie mice and I am having issues wiht them about that ..... argggg.... spoiled children are driving me nuts.....:rolleyes:;):eek:

You live in California, therefore Thou Shalt Not Feed Native Frogs to Your Snakes. Between bullfrogs (these you can feed to your snakes) chytrid, agricultural runoff in the central valley and habitat destruction, there is not an frog in CA which is not in danger of extinction, other than introduced bullfrogs, kill them with fire if you can.

That having been said, snakes eat plenty of frogs in the wild, and they live to sexual maturity and a long time thereafter. Parasites are not a problem unless the snake is suffering from some other sort of stress such as a lack of food or improper temperature. It is of course better to feed lab raised frogs. Thankfully there are biological supply companies that can ship tadpoles to your door in bulk...

[Mommy2many]

We have tree froggies with all 4 legs now (and a tail) This is the only time they are green:)

[k2l3d4]

It is of course better to feed lab raised frogs. Thankfully there are biological supply companies that can ship tadpoles to your door in bulk...

There is?> Anyone have any experience with something like this.... and more information in this arena would be greatly apppreciated.

[KITKAT]

PLEASE don't feed frogs to your garters! Frogs are endangered in so many parts of the world that it is alarming, and they are not a healthy food for a caged animal (your snake).

The parasites in frogs do not all die during freezing, and feeding frogs will build up a parasite population in your snake. Wild snakes survive this because they are outdoors, and move from place to place, but in a viv, your snake eats and drinks where he poops. Thus, parasites build up in a captive snake to a level that will kill or seriously harm his health.

If you MUST feed frogs for some reason that I cannot imagine, please feed bullfrogs. At least you won't be endangering another native species (Bullfrogs are not native west of the Rockies, and can endanger native frogs there, also).

[jitami]

Kady... I haven't read the entire thread, but have a couple quick questions. Were they eating well before this hunger strike? How long were they eating consistently before this?

I'm asking because my two juveniles have been incredibly active the last couple days, but not interested in food. I'm thinking it's our unusually cool weather. I'm actually wondering if it's throwing them into early brumation mode. It hasn't even been a week since my guys have eaten, though, so not worried. Just finding their behaviour odd this week. It's 81 in their tank, so it's not like they're cold, but this weather has been really weird and perhaps they sense that?

[k2l3d4]

Kady... I haven't read the entire thread, but have a couple quick questions. Were they eating well before this hunger strike? How long were they eating consistently before this?

I'm asking because my two juveniles have been incredibly active the last couple days, but not interested in food. I'm thinking it's our unusually cool weather. I'm actually wondering if it's throwing them into early brumation mode. It hasn't even been a week since my guys have eaten, though, so not worried. Just finding their behaviour odd this week. It's 81 in their tank, so it's not like they're cold, but this weather has been really weird and perhaps they sense that?

They normally eat pinkie mice that you can get from Petco...(3 for $5)... and I switched them to rodentpro pinkies.... since i have switched then Hudinie has decided that he does not like the,m I guess. Normally they will eat four small pinkies every four days... now Little dude is eating 1-2 large pinkies one day a week... Rescue (whom is the one that Petco was starvign to death) has no issues eating Rodentpro pinkies , but Hudinie has only eaten 3 in the last four weeks..... And I am in the Bay Area, Cali... and it is very warm here and my apartment is definately warm. I have had little dude and hudinie for about a year now with no eating issues... until now.

[GradStudentLeper]

PLEASE don't feed frogs to your garters! Frogs are endangered in so many parts of the world that it is alarming, and they are not a healthy food for a caged animal (your snake).

The parasites in frogs do not all die during freezing, and feeding frogs will build up a parasite population in your snake. Wild snakes survive this because they are outdoors, and move from place to place, but in a viv, your snake eats and drinks where he poops. Thus, parasites build up in a captive snake to a level that will kill or seriously harm his health.

If you MUST feed frogs for some reason that I cannot imagine, please feed bullfrogs. At least you won't be endangering another native species (Bullfrogs are not native west of the Rockies, and can endanger native frogs there, also).

There is so much wrong here, I dont know where to begin.

Yes, many frogs are threatened world wide. But not every frog. In fact, not even most frogs. Depending on where you live there are numerous species of frog which are not threatened and in fact are doing better than most other frogs because they are stress adapted and have the ability to deal with human disturbances.

Bullfrogs are in this group, as are some toads (woodhousii and terrestris for example), leopoard frogs, cuban treefrogs (non-native), green treefrogs, acris, and few others in the US alone. These are the sorts of frogs you find in suburban areas, and they are doing just fine. You need to be able to ID the frogs but if you can collect and raise their tadpoles, or breed them (green treefrogs and bullfrogs will readily breed in aquaria) feeding them to your snakes provided you dont have a few dozen. If you breed them you can even have a year round supply without damaging local populations.

Parasites are in everything you feed your snakes. I have addressed this before in this thread, but I will say it again. Your snakes have parasites. Everything you feed to your snakes has parasites. The question is, what type of parasites, how many, and can the snake deal with them?

The parasites that frogs have can be dealt with by the snake's immune system (the ones in pinkies may or may not meet this criteria). If the frogs had too many parasites, they would be dead, so an individual frog will not harm the frog too much. The parasites have to compete for resources in the snake, their populations wont get too high unless there is something wrong with your snake.

Here is a news flash. If your snakes actually get sick from the parasites they have, it is another problem. You are not feeding them well enough to give them the resources to deal with the parasites they already have, you are not providing them with a proper environment etc. Snakes do not survive in the wild because they are "outdoors" Snakes in the wild die from their parasite loads all the time. They die because they get too cold, and because they dont get enough food, or they catch another pathogen. The wild is not some magical clean place where everything is Happy Smiley Fun Times. You dont swim in a lot of the water that garter snakes live in because you will develop a lethal protazoan infection. The snakes deal with that every day. An adult garter has an ~10% chance of dying from predation, parasites, and starvation from year to year.

Provided you are doing everything right (which from the way you are ranting, you were not when your snakes died) you can cut that mortality rate dramatically while still giving them their natural food.

[k2l3d4]

So are you saying that you can feed green tree frogs to garters>?

[GradStudentLeper]

So are you saying that you can feed green tree frogs to garters>?

If you have a local population... yeah. In places whete H. cinerea and T. sirtalis are sympatric they do indeed feed on those frogs. They are not toxic, they are common and have healthy populations throughout their range.

That said, if you are up to it, it is better to grab a few adults and breed them in captivity than collect them from the wild en masse. Especially if you have a lot of snakes. You only want to collect a few. Alternatively you can collect tadpoles, and let them metamporphose in a ten gallon aquarium... get a couple hundred (and that wont scratch the population, even in urban environments) and you supply yourself for a year.

[tspuckler]

The parasites that frogs have can be dealt with by the snake's immune system (the ones in pinkies may or may not meet this criteria).
I am interested in knowing what sorts of parasites pinkies contain that can be transferred to snakes. Especially the lab mice that people tend to use to feed their reptiles. As far as immune systems dealing with parasites, isn't is possible that an Indonesian snake being fed fish from other countries may be getting parasites from those fish that it's completely unaccustomed to dealing with? Wouldn't the same be true when feeding an Indonesian snake American frogs?

Fish and frog parasites are not the same for all fish and frogs worldwide. For example the tapeworm Diphyllobothrium only appears in freshwater fish found mainly in temperate and subarctic regions. Are you saying Indonesian Garter Snakes are equipped to deal with this parasite?

That said, if you are up to it, it is better to grab a few adults and breed them in captivity than collect them from the wild en masse.
There are very few, if any, people who have successfully breed North American treefrogs. It is very difficult (and far more work than keeping snakes).

Snakes in the wild die from their parasite loads all the time.
Do you have any references that document this? I've never heard of a wild snake that died from parasite overload. The "all the time" line is intriguing. That would imply that there's plenty of proof to show that this happens. Are there any books/papers that indicate this?

[Mommy2many]

We have the American Grey Tree frogs in our small pool in our yard. This is the second year that they decided to make the pool their home and breeding ground. Raising them is easier said than done. Last year must have been a bad season for them, because out of the hundreds of tadpoles, we have 1 adult frog. We were able to get 7 or 8 others to frog stage but then lost them shortly afterward.

This year, we have witnessed many more frogs emerging from our pool. The season here has been cooler and rainer. Maybe that played a part? We didn't see any frogs leave the pool until October last year (the one we have now) and we still had tadpoles into November. We had to rescue what we could and bring them indoors because they were starting to freeze!

In the past week, we have seen probably 10 or so mature and venture off. I do not give them to my snakes, though they both live in the same territory. I actually did try the tadpoles (there are so many) but the snakes weren't interested anyways. After not seeing much of the frogs mature last season, I'm giving these guys a chance. I have other food to feed my babies, which they love.

[GradStudentLeper]

I am interested in knowing what sorts of parasites pinkies contain that can be transferred to snakes. Especially the lab mice that people tend to use to feed their reptiles.

A staggering diversity of helminth parasites. A seach through the literature I just performed brings up 850 articles on parasite infections in mice. Characterizing them would take me a few weeks to go through each article and catalogue everything. Suffice to say, some of those parasites will be host specific to mice, others would be opportunists, and the snakes may or may not be able to respond to the ones that are opportunists. In many cases that response just consists of a passive diversion of energy away from reproduction toward body maintainence to offset what the parasite takes.



As far as immune systems dealing with parasites, isn't is possible that an Indonesian snake being fed fish from other countries may be getting parasites from those fish that it's completely unaccustomed to dealing with? Wouldn't the same be true when feeding an Indonesian snake American frogs?

I am not talking about indonesian snakes now am I? You are very very good at constructing strawman arguments. Guess what, what is pretty intellectually dishonest, even if it is a skill.


I am referring to North American Garter snakes in the genus Thamnophis. If you want to get into the asian "Garters" then no, I would not recommend feeding them north american frogs. Or locally available fish. As a matter of fact, I would not recommend keeping indonesian snakes at all, or any non-captive bred exotic reptile because all it does is encourage commercial collection which has this odd tendency to wipe out populations of the slow breeding animals.

That having been said, it is up in the air. It would depend on whether or not the parasites can use the snake as a host (which, if they use american snakes as a host the answer is probably yes for a good number of them, with that number getting higher the more closely related the snakes are to eachother), whether or not the parasites are related to something the snake would otherwise see (if so, the chance of a response is fairly good, depending on chemical markers) ect.





Fish and frog parasites are not the same for all fish and frogs worldwide. For example the tapeworm Diphyllobothrium only appears in freshwater fish found mainly in temperate and subarctic regions. Are you saying Indonesian Garter Snakes are equipped to deal with this parasite?

Probably not, because they use mammals as a host, not reptiles. Though I imagine there could be an exception.

The other factor is how generalized the parasites host requirements are. Some are very very specific, others can infect just about anything.



There are very few, if any, people who have successfully breed North American treefrogs. It is very difficult (and far more work than keeping snakes).

I would argue that it is more likely that people just have not tried. Most ranids (and indeed snakes) just need to be placed in proximity to eachother and they will mate eventually. Hylids and toads are more particular, but provided they are not subject to Captive Stress (IE their environments are suitable and their breeding response is triggered) it will be some work, and take a lot of experimentation, but it could be well worth it. At least hyla cinerea will breed in polluted urban flood control canals and retention basins. If you are going to be able to breed any north american hylid, that is the one to try. Either that or pseudacris regilla which will breed in people's backyard swimming pools and has been introduced into Arizona of all places via plant nursuries and breeds in their plant-watering runoff.

Might it be more work than dealing with just the snakes? Sure. Which is why I prefaced the statement with "If you are up to it" implying that it was not an easy task. Me, I have too many snakes to not want to breed my own feeders, so I am going to try. If I fail, I have that bullfrog colony down in my lab to work with.




Do you have any references that document this? I've never heard of a wild snake that died from parasite overload. The "all the time" line is intriguing. That would imply that there's plenty of proof to show that this happens. Are there any books/papers that indicate this?

As a matter of fact, I do! Most stuff on host-parasite interactions in snakes has to do with captive collections (mostly cryptosporidium) that primarily have wild caught organisms (captive stress depresses immune function and Death from Parasites), but I did manage to find this little gem a while back. Moreover there is a lot of stuff in the garter snake literature which suggests parasite loads as a cause of mortality during overwintering. However the authors only looked at body condition and did not perform any histology or do a necropsy.

Mdsen, T., Ujvari, B., Olsson, M. 2005. Old Pythons Stay Fit; Effects of Haematozoan Infections on Life History Traits of a Large Tropical Predator. Oecologica, 142(3):407-412

Abstract: We document the impact of blood parasite infections caused by Hepatozoon sp. on water python (Liasis fuscus) life history traits such as growth rates, condition, reproductive output and survival. Individual snakes maintained similar among-year parasite loads. Hepatozoon infections affected python growth rate, i.e. snakes suffering from high infection levels exhibited significantly slower growth compared to individuals with low parasite loads. Our results suggest that the parasites also affected the pythons' nutritional status ( condition), as snakes with low condition scores suffered from higher parasite infection levels than snakes with high scores. Furthermore, our data suggest that parasitaemia may affect female reproductive output, as reproductive female pythons harboured lower parasite loads compared to non-reproductive adult females. High levels of parasite infections also affected juvenile python survival, as recaptured snakes harboured significantly lower parasiteparasite loads in larger/ older pythons were lower compared to younger snakes, suggesting that only snakes harbouring lower levels of parasitaemia were able to survive to old age. We suggest that a possible cause for the opposing results regarding parasite prevalence and host age may be due to different levels of extrinsic mortality rates and longevity. Long-lived organisms, such as water pythons, may invest relatively more into crucial self-maintenance functions such as parasite loads compared to non-recaptured yearling pythons. In our study area, water python have very few natural predators and, hence, experience low mortality rates and commonly reach an age of > 15 years. In contrast to results obtained in other studies, defence, compared to short-lived organisms.

[GradStudentLeper]

We have the American Grey Tree frogs in our small pool in our yard. This is the second year that they decided to make the pool their home and breeding ground. Raising them is easier said than done. Last year must have been a bad season for them, because out of the hundreds of tadpoles, we have 1 adult frog. We were able to get 7 or 8 others to frog stage but then lost them shortly afterward.

This year, we have witnessed many more frogs emerging from our pool. The season here has been cooler and rainer. Maybe that played a part? We didn't see any frogs leave the pool until October last year (the one we have now) and we still had tadpoles into November. We had to rescue what we could and bring them indoors because they were starting to freeze!

In the past week, we have seen probably 10 or so mature and venture off. I do not give them to my snakes, though they both live in the same territory. I actually did try the tadpoles (there are so many) but the snakes weren't interested anyways. After not seeing much of the frogs mature last season, I'm giving these guys a chance. I have other food to feed my babies, which they love.

In a backyard swimming pool they are resource limited (how much algea really grows in those?), in addition they have non-fish predators like dragonfly nymphs to deal with. Tadpoles are the... potato chips of aquatic systems. Their mortality rates are really high, we are talking about fractions of a percent survival rate.

If you want to maximize the number that survive, supplement their food and screen the pool to protect it from insect predators.

[Mommy2many]

We actually have started to feed them this year. There is some algae and we have also introduced the small trout my kids fished out of the stream. We have had a lot of rain and it is cooler, so I believe the algae is not as great as last summer.

They seemed to die off right at the frog stage.
What ever is going on is working for the frogs this year. :o

[tspuckler]

A staggering diversity of helminth parasites. A seach through the literature I just performed brings up 850 articles on parasite infections in mice.
Can you give me examples of specific articles where a snake acquired a parasite from a mouse? I understand that there are parasite infections in mice. What I asked was what sort of parasites pinkies have that have been proven to be transferred to snakes.

...and the snakes may or may not be able to respond to the ones that are opportunists...
This sounds like you really don't know if helminth parasites can be transferred to snakes via mice. Therefore it seems to me that you are taking your opinion and trying to pass it off as fact.

I am not talking about indonesian snakes now am I?
Maybe not, but I was. It's a simple question, can you answer it?

...what is pretty intellectually dishonest, even if it is a skill.
Trying to pass off your opinions as fact is "intellectually dishonest."

The other factor is how generalized the parasites host requirements are. Some are very very specific, others can infect just about anything.
So it sounds like your idea of raising frogs really doesn't have much value. If snakes can gets parasites from just about anything, why bother?

I would argue that it is more likely that people just have not tried.
Maybe, but for those who have, it's nearly impossible.

...it will be some work, and take a lot of experimentation, but it could be well worth it.
The seemingly casual suggestion you made about breeding your own frogs as a food source isn't all that realistic. If possible, it would take quite some time to do it, and in the meantime the snakes would die of starvation.

As a matter of fact, I do!
Your reference doesn't give any indication that the snakes DIED of parasites, just that they had them. This is yet another case of you trying to pass off your personal opinion as fact (aka being "intellectually dishonest").

[GradStudentLeper]

Can you give me examples of specific articles where a snake acquired a parasite from a mouse? I understand that there are parasite infections in mice. What I asked was what sort of parasites pinkies have that have been proven to be transferred to snakes

You cannot possibly be this obtuse. Rodent eating snakes in the wild get their intestinal parasites (and their other parasites) from a vector. This means rodents. I dont have a documented case of it on hand, and I dont need one because I made a point of NOT doing what you consistently accuse me of doing (presumably because you dont actually read my posts, as I will show in a moment) by couching everything in terms of probability, and simple logic. Here is the logic-train for you.

Rodent eating snakes get their intestinal parasites from a vector, typically what they eat
Rodent eating snakes eat rodents
Therefore it stands to reason that rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from rodents.

commercially raised rodents have been documented to be infected with parasites.
commercially raised rodents live under conditions ripe for the spread of disease among and within colonies
Therefore it stands to reason that commercially raised rodents are typically infected with parasites.

Combine the two.

Rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from rodents.
Commercially raised rodents are typically infected with parasites.
Therefore it stands to reason that captive rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from commercially raised rodents.

If you would like a step by step playback of my posts, I can do that, in which I couch the possibility for host jumps and evolutionary resistance to the parasite in terms of probability, thus not passing off anything as fact but as a likelyhood heuristic.


This sounds like you really don't know if helminth parasites can be transferred to snakes via mice. Therefore it seems to me that you are taking your opinion and trying to pass it off as fact.

You just contradicted yourself. I cannot do both at once. Indicating I am not sure of something is mutually exclusive with passing off opinion as fact. Using the words "X May or may not be able to do Y" is about as far from "X can do Y" as a statement of fact that you can get.

Here is what the facts are (if you want a book on this, I would suggest picking up a book and taking a refresher course on evolution, then a text on behavioral ecology; particularly predator prey interactions of which host-parasite interactions are a subset)

A rodent eating snake will be equipped (in evolutionary terms) for dealing with rodent parasites that it DOES contract. While a non-rodent eating snake will not have these immune mechanisms because they are costly to keep up. Defenses against predators and parasites are costly to maintain either in resource costs (it takes energy to manufacture proteins and immune cells) or opportunity costs (these proteins and cells are specialized for one or a few pathogens/parasites, and because energy supply is limited, synthesizing a compliment of one subset prevents the synthesis of another subset by definition). Pathogens have no such limitation because the pathways they use to access cells, or invade the digestive/circulatory/respiratory systems are more conserved across host types making a wide host range, or host jumping easy.


Here is where I get into what I will call "Professional speculation"

Therefore, the best way to mitigate risk in your animals is to NOT feed them something that they would not otherwise eat in the wild, so you do not expose them to novel pathogens and parasites. It is the same reason you shouldnt introduce new predators (like monitor lizards and burmese pythons) into a novel ecosystem, the scale is just smaller. Individual organisms are themselves ecosystems for parasites and pathogenic microbes.



Maybe not, but I was. It's a simple question, can you answer it?

Already did, but you dont read my posts.


Maybe, but for those who have, it's nearly impossible.

Do you have a reference for this? Including species and methods used to attempt propagation?


The seemingly casual suggestion you made about breeding your own frogs as a food source isn't all that realistic. If possible, it would take quite some time to do it, and in the meantime the snakes would die of starvation.

Gee, good thing I didnt suggest starving snakes in the meantime, and in fact recommended just collecting tadpoles of common species now didnt I?



Your reference doesn't give any indication that the snakes DIED of parasites, just that they had them. This is yet another case of you trying to pass off your personal opinion as fact (aka being "intellectually dishonest").

And this is another case of you being either unable or unwilling to read:

Furthermore, our data suggest that parasitaemia may affect female reproductive output, as reproductive female pythons harboured lower parasite loads compared to non-reproductive adult females. High levels of parasite infections also affected juvenile python survival, as recaptured snakes harboured significantly lower parasite loads. Parasite loads in larger/ older pythons were lower compared to younger snakes, suggesting that only snakes harbouring lower levels of parasitaemia were able to survive to old age.

One basically needs to look at the effects of parasites on a population basis to find mortality rates of snakes in the wild from parasites. Which is exactly what this guy did. If you would like, I can give you the results section of the paper, and maybe snippets of the discussion, seeing as I have access to the full paper.

Now, here is what you can do for me. In addition to the reference, you can remove your head from your rectum. Calmly stand up, then get on one foot and insert the other foot into your mouth.

[GradStudentLeper]

So it sounds like your idea of raising frogs really doesn't have much value. If snakes can gets parasites from just about anything, why bother?

Because their resistance to the harmful effects of the parasites, and their ability to fight them off varies with their exposure to said parasites through evolutionary time. Additionally if you remove the eggs as soon as they are laid, and keep out certain intermediary hosts (like snails) you can reduce the number and type of parasites that infect your animals(example: you can remove certain flukes this way). Unlike mice, where their parasites were there starting the moment the colony line was started thousands of generations ago, and keep getting spread parent to offspring via close proximity. Why? because mammal vectors are insects and other individual mammals (depending on the parasite) and they are much harder to exclude, particularly in non-lab rodent colonies (actually lab rodents are not much better...)

[tspuckler]

You cannot possibly be this obtuse. Rodent eating snakes in the wild get their intestinal parasites (and their other parasites) from a vector. This means rodents. I dont have a documented case of it on hand...
This does not address my initial question: You're talking about wild snakes, I specifically asked about captive snakes being fed lab mice.

Therefore it stands to reason that rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from rodents.
I asked for documented proof - it sounds like you do not have it. Rather, it appears you are once again trying to pass off your opinions as facts. Jumping to conclusions is not the same thing as being factually accurate.

Here is where I get into what I will call "Professional speculation"
Indeed. And speculation is not fact - it's a guess.

Do you have a reference for this? Including species and methods used to attempt propagation?
Yes, see Le Ann's post for more information.

in fact recommended just collecting tadpoles of common species now didnt I?
Yes, but that's not what I was referring to, which was: "That said, if you are up to it, it is better to grab a few adults and breed them in captivity than collect them from the wild en masse."

High levels of parasite infections also affected juvenile python survival, as recaptured snakes harboured significantly lower parasite loads.
"Affecting" survival is not the same as killing. You have made a false statement about "Snakes in the wild die from their parasite loads all the time." Yes, parasites can contribute to survival, as can many other factors - but you have no evidence whatsoever that parasites all by their lonesome, kill wild snakes - especially with the frequency of that "all the time" nonsense you've stated. Maybe you should stick to subject matter that you know (whatever that may be).

Calmly stand up, then get on one foot and insert the other foot into your mouth.
Sounds like you're making a personal insult. You seem to do that everytime someone calls you out on the false claims you repeatedly make on this forum. Can you just stick to the facts?

Unlike mice, where their parasites were there starting the moment the colony line was started thousands of generations ago, and keep getting spread parent to offspring via close proximity.
Yes, but if you can't prove mice have parasites that are transferrable to captive snakes (especially lab mice) why not simply feed your snakes rodents, instead of the hassle of raising frogs (if it's even possible) and STILL having the possibility that the captive-raised frogs will have parasites that are transferrable to the snake.

What school do you go to?

[k2l3d4]

O)K....... now that you two are hopefully done arguing in circles on my post and neither one of you has answered my question........ I have a green checkered garter that I purchase from Petco 08 and I knwo that the same Petco carries green tree frogs......Snake has not eaten in over a month....... would it be safe for me to feed a green treee frog that i purchase from Petco to feed to my snake that I purchased from the same store.... I am just looking at hopefully enticing him back into eating again and if that will do the trick I need to know that it will be safe, and then hopefully he will go back to eating f/t pinkies....

[tspuckler]

would it be safe for me to feed a green treee frog that i purchase from Petco to feed to my snake that I purchased from the same store

The Green Treefrogs sold at PetCo are wild-caught. Wild-caught frogs often carry parasites. So "safe" is a relative word. Do you feel lucky?

Sometimes snakes get "hooked" on a particular food item. If that turns out to be the case, do you intend to feed it $5 or $6 frogs (or whatever PetCo charges) for its entire life? Do you wish to support the collection of wild-caught frogs for the pet (or in this case, food) trade?

[k2l3d4]

I have heard about the imprinting on the prey items,,... something like gerbails with ball pythons. that is why my BP's only get f/t mice and when they get older f/t rats. I just did not think something would be like that with garters since they eat a more varied types of prey. So what would be your suggestion then in regards to an 08 checkered garter that has not eaten in about a month? He refuses to eat nightcrawlers, only partially will eat feeder fish, use to love pinkies ..... what else can i try to get him to eat?

[GradStudentLeper]

This does not address my initial question...And this ignores the rest of that section of the post.


I asked for documented proof -...I have a question for you. Given that we know and have established that lab rodent colonies have parasites, at least some of which are also parasites in wild snakes, do you think there is something somehow magical about their parasites and captive bred snakes that somehow prevents transmission? As that is what your position effectively requires you to believe in order to demand documentation in this manner. I should not need it, as it should be plainly evident.

Another question: Why are the really nice high end frozen mice irradiated if people are not paying a premium to prevent parasites?

Of course, that is now irrelevant, as I have found a rather large survey of cryptosporidium in zoo collections. Guess what I have found? C. parvum mouse genotype, found in Elaphe obsoleta, Python regius, Boa constrictor, Lampropeltis geluta, Elaphe guttata, Corallus caninus, L. triangulum, L. calligaster, and Elaphe vulpina... A well as a lot of non-snakes.

The reference for this is

Xiao, L. Et al. 2004. Genetic Diversity of Cryptosporidium spp. in Captive Reptiles. Applied and Environmental Microbiology, 70(2):891-899.


Indeed. And speculation is not fact - it's a guess.No. Lay person speculation is a guess. I am not a lay person and am speculating from a specialized knowledge base. I am synthesizing information from across a field of study and taking it to its next logical step. That is not a guess. The only place where I am in any way making a jump, is because I do not know the exact parasite load of the average lab mouse, and thus cannot tell you what parasites can use a reptile as a vector. Everything else in that little paragraph is stuff I can teach to a freshman biology class and not have any controversy on unless a creationist makes it into the University of Texas Board of Regents. Thankfully Gov Perry( A pox be upon him) has no say in such matters.

I love how in your response you completely ignore the entire chain of logic I use to reach that conclusion. Did you read and understand it?


Yes, see Le Ann's post for more information.A lay person's anecdotes are not evidence. Plus it is dealing with 1 out of many species, under non-controlled conditions, in a different clade than H. cinerea (Pacific treefrogs are within Pseudacris now)


"Affecting" survival is not the same as killing. On a population level, yeah, it is.


but you have no evidence whatsoever that parasites all by their lonesome, kill wild snakesvery little will kill anything "all on its lonesome" and that is never what I claimed. I grow tired of you cherry picking snippets out of context and generally misrepresenting my arguments. If you want to know why I insult you, that is why.

Here is the original statement.

Snakes in the wild die from their parasite loads all the time. They die because they get too cold, and because they dont get enough food, or they catch another pathogen. The wild is not some magical clean place where everything is Happy Smiley Fun Times. You dont swim in a lot of the water that garter snakes live in because you will develop a lethal protazoan infection. The snakes deal with that every day.

Nothing dies from one cause typically, unless their predators use a random predation mode (like filter feeding) or they catch something with a near 100% mortality rate (ebola in humans for example... or a heavy load of chinese liver flukes). They die because they are immune suppressed due to cold and cant fight off the parasites, or because they have a bad food year and their energy intake goes below their parasite-enhanced maintenance threshold and they deplete their fat reserves, at which point they either starve or get picked off by a predator before starving. Either way the parasite load is one of many proximate and ultimate causes of mortality, and I did not claim otherwise.

This depends on the parasites of course. Some parasites will of course kill their hosts... certain flukes for example, as will Plasmodium. However that you wont detect in the wild because the animal decays and dies before you find it. The only way to detect death from parasitism in this manner is through... *gasp* correlating parasite load with recapture probability. Just like the study I cited.



especially with the frequency of that "all the time" nonsense you've stated.The per annum mortality rate for juvenile T. elegans along Eagle Lake California alone is 80-90% (I would need to dig up the papers again to get the exact number), a portion of that is directly and indirectly due to parasites, and we are talking about thousands of little snakes per year.

T. sirtalis in Manitoba have high mortality rates from year to year as well due to "poor body condition" during hibernation. The guys that do the work never performed a necropsy on the dead ones, however poor body condition is contributed to by parasite loads.

What? Do you think that parasites just magically kill the animals? Most parasites dont actually create some sort of accute illness that by itself will kill a snake. The helminth parasites at least reduce energy and nutrient intake from food and kill indirectly via starvation. Blood parasites are a different matter, but I know little about them other than what I described above.


Maybe you should stick to subject matter that you know (whatever that may be).Here is my area of study:

Foraging strategies in Natricine snakes, and the evolution of novel predator recognition and anti-predator strategies in frogs toward natricine snakes. Anti-predator strategies include in this case chemical defenses, behavioral defenses, and life history shifts. It also requires me to know about most of the things which are ancillary to this. Enegy budgets, sexual selection, costs of reproduction etc. I dont work with parasites, but host-parasite interactions are a subset of predator-prey interactions and they rely on the same concepts. The scale of application is just smaller.


Sounds like you're making a personal insult.Actually no. It is a personal and public service. I just have a caustic personality, you should see me on a board with looser rules of engagement. I would also note you are committing a Style over Substance Fallacy. I am not a caustic jerk as a substitute for an argument. If you will notice, I refuted your argument (and have expanded on this from there) and then I followed by being a caustic jerk. The two are entirely different things.

Instructive example

Person 1: 2+2=5
Person 2: No. You are wrong because your (insert your mom joke here)

That is what is called an ad hominem attack, which is what you accuse me of.

What I actually do is this

Person 1: 2+2=47
Person 2: (Proof involving counting of apples and showing the other person a numberline), oh and by the way (insert your mom joke here)

You will notice how the insult is secondary to the argument. In my case, they are typically the result of frustration when someone either does not read, does not comprehend, or deliberately misrepresents my posts. All three of which are things you have demonstrated.



Yes, but if you can't prove mice have parasites that are transferrable to captive snakes (especially lab mice) why not simply feed your snakes rodents, instead of the hassle of raising frogs (if it's even possible) and STILL having the possibility that the captive-raised frogs will have parasites that are transferrable to the snake.Because I have now established that at least cryptosporidium (and probably a lot of other stuff, like tapeworms), is transfered. A snake which does not naturally prey upon rodents will have no defenses against a parasite that uses the rodent as an obligate or facultative intermediate host, save to "hope" it gets enough food (in the case of an intestinal parasite) to get what it needs after the parasite takes its cut, or that the parasite load is low enough to not cause problems. A snake which preys upon rodents will have a variety of defenses against such parasites (the parasite will determine what those are, from chemical to cellular, to energy allocation shifts, and thermoregulatory changes)

In the same way, a snake which preys upon fish and frogs will have more defenses against the parasites that use them as hosts than those which do not.

Not all parasites are equal. You also need to consider per-parasite risk

As for me. Did my undergraduate work at ASU, now I am at the University of Texas, Arlington.

[GradStudentLeper]

O)K....... now that you two are hopefully done arguing in circles on my post and neither one of you has answered my question.Because it is cheaper to go to a pond and collect tadpoles or breeding adults, those frogs are wild caught. However because you got your snake at a petco, so is your snake. It was feeding on frogs in the wild, (maybe not cinerea, but most frogs have the same parasites AFAIK), and it already has plenty of parasites that it is dealing with.

Now, after a month at the usual temps, and assuming the snake is not a mated female, that snake is rapidly depleting its fat reserves, particularly with its existing parasite loads (and yes, it has them, and so do you). The one frog will probably not significantly harm the snake, and if you can get him to eat, go for it. If you are that worried about parasites, freeze the frog first. The only significant risk is getting the snake "strung out" on frogs. If that happens... Carolina Biological Supply is your friend (you can google them) they sell bullfrog tadpoles in bulk, year round. The frogs are wild collected... but honestly, they are cheap and bullfrogs are about the last species of frog on earth that will go extinct, or even have its populations scratched by commercial collection.

If you dont want to go through that, you can always buy the frog, and violate it (by which I mean, rub a dead mouse all over it, then let the frog take a hot shower while it cries and wails about being violated by someone it trusts).

[Stefan-A]

you should see me on a board with looser rules of engagement.
I'd like to point out that you're both stretching them as it is. I suggest you both calm down a bit and focus on what the disagreement is. I don't want to have to terminate another discussion just because of juvenile **** fencing.

[k2l3d4]

Because it is cheaper to go to a pond and collect tadpoles or breeding adults, those frogs are wild caught. However because you got your snake at a petco, so is your snake. It was feeding on frogs in the wild, (maybe not cinerea, but most frogs have the same parasites AFAIK), and it already has plenty of parasites that it is dealing with.

Now, after a month at the usual temps, and assuming the snake is not a mated female, that snake is rapidly depleting its fat reserves, particularly with its existing parasite loads (and yes, it has them, and so do you). The one frog will probably not significantly harm the snake, and if you can get him to eat, go for it. If you are that worried about parasites, freeze the frog first. The only significant risk is getting the snake "strung out" on frogs. If that happens... Carolina Biological Supply is your friend (you can google them) they sell bullfrog tadpoles in bulk, year round. The frogs are wild collected... but honestly, they are cheap and bullfrogs are about the last species of frog on earth that will go extinct, or even have its populations scratched by commercial collection.

If you dont want to go through that, you can always buy the frog, and violate it (by which I mean, rub a dead mouse all over it, then let the frog take a hot shower while it cries and wails about being violated by someone it trusts).

No He is a 08 checkered male garter that has not eaten since I switched to Rodent Pro pinkie mice... He loved the expensive f/t pinkies that Petco provides but he was eating me out of room and board while eating those...I just heard of another garter owner that has had issues with their snakes switching to rodentpro.... I think that i am going to pick up one green frog, a few orange colored feeder fish, and a pack of the expensive mice.. (that is only three and not enought to fill him up), ... maybe teh combination of the three willl work....

[k2l3d4]

I'd like to point out that you're both stretching them as it is. I suggest you both calm down a bit and focus on what the disagreement is. I don't want to have to terminate another discussion just because of juvenile **** fencing.

Thank you Stefan... I am getting sick of reading the arguing just to see if any one has answered my post.

[Cerastes]

k2l3d4 (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/../members/k2l3d4.html), It's ok to feed your Thamnophis H. cinerea. They are relatively "cheap" and in my experience garters aren't too bad in the "getting strung out" department.

The more important question here that has so far been unasked (or I missed it) regards your tank/vivarium specs, temperatures, etc. A snake that is at an improper temperature will be very difficult to get feeding; The same holds for snakes that are stressed. And, often times, snakes will just be off of feeding for no apparent reason whatsoever.

[Stefan-A]

Sorry. I get frustrated when someone refuses to actually engage an argument. This guy cannot write a sentence without using one logical fallacy or another. It is becoming irritating, and there is a concrete limit (and that limit is admittedly low) to how much of that I am willing to tolerate before I browbeat someone.
Understandable, but enough is enough. No progress is being made here, the discussion has degenerated into simple bickering. Regardless of who's right, it needs to end now.

If the two of you have anything to say to each other, do it privately. If it continues here, it will be deleted.

[Stefan-A]

If the two of you have anything to say to each other, do it privately. If it continues here, it will be deleted.
That goes for everybody else, as well. Comments about somebody's debating style don't belong here, either.

[gregmonsta]

I am interested in knowing what sorts of parasites pinkies contain that can be transferred to snakes. Especially the lab mice that people tend to use to feed their reptiles.

So here's a good parasite link that was designed to educate rat keeper's, how to care for their pets.
Almost each and every species of parasite mentioned can survive in their new host the snake.

Rat & Mouse Gazette: Medical Corner: The Worms Crawl In, The Worms Crawl Out (http://www.rmca.org/Articles/worms.htm)

Pinworms are especially a problem for people who feed live.

[Cerastes]

As far as breeding H. cinerea goes, I can speak with some qualification that these guys (at least) amplex rather readily: I have had one on my arm next to a tank without the screen lid, only to have a male jump from the tank and crawl up my arm to engage in amplexus!

North American Hylids are by far the most straight- forward of the family to keep in the average house at average ambient temperatures/humidity; The difficulty lies in raising the metamorphs to something that can accept pinhead crickets (try flightless fruit flies here)

Now, speaking in terms of disease transmission, it is very unlikely that your Thamnophis (marcianus?) is even "clean" of parasites to begin with, regardless of being the captive born snake that it is! Between feeding it lab mice, fish, walking outdoors and handling the snake in the same clothes and/or not washing your hands, your snake is harboring parasites.
The key to mitigating the damage that these parasites cause is to keep the snake in a “stress-free” environment with adequate food and heat so that it can maintain its immune system and keep these parasite populations under control.

[FunkyRes]

You live in California, therefore Thou Shalt Not Feed Native Frogs to Your Snakes. Between bullfrogs (these you can feed to your snakes) chytrid, agricultural runoff in the central valley and habitat destruction, there is not an frog in CA which is not in danger of extinction, other than introduced bullfrogs, kill them with fire if you can.

Not true.
Pacific Treefrogs (Pseudacris regilla) are in absolutely no danger and are regularly fed upon by garter snakes in the wild.

[jitami]

Kady, how are the snakes doing? Any luck getting them to eat? Have you done things like wash the rodent pro mice with soap and water? Sometimes the different smell will throw them off even if it's the same type of prey. After washing, you can always try scenting with the tree frog or a feeder fish. Braining the mouse may get you a better response, too. If they were eating mice before I would assume they are just on a hunger strike and while completely annoying they're likely fine. Like someone else suggested, check environment, but you're probably just going to have to wait this one out... I'd start by washing the pink & cutting it in half to see if they respond to that. Good luck. I know it's frusting. It gets our 'mommy instincts' kicked in to overdrive wanting them to eat, but they'll be ok.

[k2l3d4]

I always rinse the mice off and I did give Hudinie a tree frog and he ate it..... now i am hoping that he will finish off the feeder fish. Then I have picked him up a package of the expensive mice for if he keeps going against rodent pro mice.

[jitami]

Glad he ate something for you. If you notice him in feeding response going for the feeder fish, try dropping a thawed rodent pro pinky in with the fish and see if he'll accidentally hit the mouse and continue eating... they usually will. If you want to continue using the rodent pro mice, don't give up on them. Scent them with the more expensive mice, feeder fish, even another tree frog. Long term it will be worth it.

[Mommy2many]

Like you stated before "Spoiled children..." Glad Houdini ate something for you. Good luck getting him onto the generic brand of mice. My kittens do the same thing (so to speak) I have one that will eat the Walmart brand, the other will eat it and then promptly throw it up on my rug. Not my wood floor or linolium floor or tile floor. No, we have to pick the rug. UUGGHHHH!!!:mad:

[mustang]

Like you stated before "Spoiled children..." Glad Houdini ate something for you. Good luck getting him onto the generic brand of mice. My kittens do the same thing (so to speak) I have one that will eat the Walmart brand, the other will eat it and then promptly throw it up on my rug. Not my wood floor or linolium floor or tile floor. No, we have to pick the rug. UUGGHHHH!!!:mad:
well atleast urs dosnt crap unless u pick it up , put on carpet, or on bed!!! i know i heard it snickering!!!!

[Brewster320]

I have given my garter a few salamanders and a toad before. Only reason hes gotten those for is because my tricolored hognose actually needs them. They can live on a diet of mainly rodents but they need amphibans once in awhile or else they can get a liver disease and actually die. its been bugging me though becuase he will not take the any of the toads/salamanders hes offered but he will absoultely anything else including rats, mice, fish fillets, try for fingers, himself... So I just give the toads and stuff to my garter so they don't go to waist and he seems to enjoy them.