People against wild caught Garters

[PitGirl89]

How do you guys deal with this? I've barely had my Garter for a week and a lot of people are already down my throat about "Whats wild should stay wild" blah blah blah. For the most part I agree... I agree when it comes to morons keeping pet lions and tigers... but here where its illegal to breed and sell Garters, I didn't have a lot of options. I didn't go looking for this snake, I wanted a Garter, but I just happened to stumble across No Feet and having had all of the materials to house and properly keep her already at hand, thought that it was a good oppurtunity. Its just frustrating, the only thing I can tell them is that there aren't any Garters readily available for sale here and that No Feets odds for survival in the wild weren't exactly in her favor... Atleast in my care I can guarantee her a healthy and safe from predators life...

What do you guys tell them? I imagine there has to be a handful of them everywhere...

[guidofatherof5]

I haven't run into much of that. I wish I did.
I get the "I kill everyone of them I see, how could you keep one of those in your house".
:rolleyes: I'm not keeping 1:D

[Millinex]

I think it really depends. For a first keeper in a lot of situations taking a single garter (not a gravid female) is perfectly ok. I grew up collecting them around my town, and to this day I take wild garters. I do however make a point to take from only certain areas. I will take snakes from being killed, or from construction areas. One of the parks I herp is doing some new construction so I collect there, because snakes that are moved and relocated do so poorly I would rather care for it than it die.

[brain]

I haven't run into much of that. I wish I did.
I get the "I kill everyone of them I see, how could you keep one of those in your house".
:rolleyes: I'm not keeping 1:D
Good 1 ...hehe

[Didymus20X6]

because snakes that are moved and relocated do so poorly I would rather care for it than it die.
Really? I've been catching snakes around the neighborhood and relocating them so the neighbors won't kill them. I've been taking them to a little stream about 10 miles away, where there's plenty of woods, and I'm sure far enough away from people. I'm hoping my efforts haven't actually put the little guys in any danger.

[PitGirl89]

I get the "I kill everyone of them I see, how could you keep one of those in your house".


I'm sure I'll run into that shortly enough as well. You know what they say... Ignorance is bliss.

[bkhuff1s]

.... in area where a specific species is thriving I don't see a problem with taking a couple out of the wild population. In all honestly a few hundred years ago they were probably hunted by humans for snacks.

[wolfpacksved]

Collecting a few WC animals is nothing compared to habitat loss. Snakes have the odds stacked against them from the day they begin to crawl. Humans, predators, pet trade all take their toll, but habitat loss decimates populations more than anything.

[drache]

I think it is a matter of degree
when someone takes one or two to keep as pets and/or propagate, I see nothing wrong with it, as long as the population is healthy
it does bother me a lot when people take a bunch to sell them, or a lot of gravid females, regardless of how healthy the population
some of these people are just uninformed or thoughtless, and don't realize the potential damage, but some are plain greedy bastards who don't care about the animals
I imagine that the ones that gravitate to this forum are less likely to be in the latter category

[Stefan-A]

Collecting a few WC animals is nothing compared to habitat loss. Snakes have the odds stacked against them from the day they begin to crawl. Humans, predators, pet trade all take their toll, but habitat loss decimates populations more than anything.
So why do it? To get a snake for free? That it's not as damaging as habitat loss, is not really a justification.

[Didymus20X6]

Depends, Stefan. In some of the cases described, what is taking place is loss of habitat, in which case the collected specimens might be doomed anyway. For example, collecting snakes from a construction site. Once the building goes up, the snakes have already lost their habitat, and apart from finding a new one quick (where they would still be subject to predation and competition with other predators in that area), they will die anyway. At least catching them would prevent their immediate demise, even if the end result for the immediate environ is the same.

I look at it the same way I looked at my own attempts to rescue snakes: in my neighborhood, the snakes have already lost much of their habitat to humans, and the more they encounter humans, the more likely they will die. But at least by catching them and moving them, I hope I'm giving the individual specimens a chance at survival. Granted, I don't know how much of one (they still have to compete with other species), and the problem with loss of habitat is still an issue, but it's better than seeing their headless corpses lined up along the street for the garbage collectors, IMHO.

Bottom line: if they are already losing their habitat, and relocation cannot guarantee their survival, then collecting the animals that are going to be killed anyway isn't going to have the same impact as collecting wild specimens haphazardly with no regard for the local population.

[Stefan-A]

Bottom line: if they are already losing their habitat, and relocation cannot guarantee their survival, then collecting the animals that are going to be killed anyway isn't going to have the same impact as collecting wild specimens haphazardly with no regard for the local population.
No, that's true, it's not going to have the same impact, but a snake permanently removed from the wild is less useful than a relocated one with a 0.01% chance of survival, or even a dead one. The problem is that it still has a negative impact. From an animal welfare point of view, you might have a case, but not necessarily from a conservation perspective.

[adamanteus]

If there were only a couple of guys going in to any given area and collecting a snake, the damage would be minimal. But who knows how many were collected from there yesterday, and tomorrow.... and next week....
It's a cumulative effect, you're not the only one collecting.

[Didymus20X6]

You make some good points. However, there is a bit of inherent hypocrisy: every single captive-bred garter snake on the planet - in fact, ever single domesticated animal - at some point in history was a wild-caught. Whether the snake's mother, grandmother, or distant ancestor, at some point in their family history there is a wild-caught animal. So unless we're supposing that all trade in snakes cease and desist, we're still right back where we started from: someone had to collect those wild-caught specimens in order to breed them.

In some cases, this might turn out to be a good thing. Take for example the San Fran: due to habitat loss, the snake is nearly extinct. But because someone captured a few, bred them, and shipped them overseas, at least there are some still remaining. Who knows? If California enacts procedures that might help restore the SF's habitat, there might be opportunity for some of these captive snakes to be allowed to reinhabit their once-lost environ. Does this make it okay for someone to take them now? Not if it will severely impact the local breeding population, which, with an endangered animal like the SF, it almost certainly will. But what about with a T. s. sirtalis, whose habitat ranges all the way from Florida up into Canada? These guys aren't going extinct anytime soon.

Captive-bred animals: at some point, they had to be taken from the wild.

[Quibble]

You make some good points. However, there is a bit of inherent hypocrisy: every single captive-bred garter snake on the planet - in fact, ever single domesticated animal - at some point in history was a wild-caught. Whether the snake's mother, grandmother, or distant ancestor, at some point in their family history there is a wild-caught animal. So unless we're supposing that all trade in snakes cease and desist, we're still right back where we started from: someone had to collect those wild-caught specimens in order to breed them.

In some cases, this might turn out to be a good thing. Take for example the San Fran: due to habitat loss, the snake is nearly extinct. But because someone captured a few, bred them, and shipped them overseas, at least there are some still remaining. Who knows? If California enacts procedures that might help restore the SF's habitat, there might be opportunity for some of these captive snakes to be allowed to reinhabit their once-lost environ. Does this make it okay for someone to take them now? Not if it will severely impact the local breeding population, which, with an endangered animal like the SF, it almost certainly will. But what about with a T. s. sirtalis, whose habitat ranges all the way from Florida up into Canada? These guys aren't going extinct anytime soon.

Captive-bred animals: at some point, they had to be taken from the wild.


Kudos, I feel the same way.

[PitGirl89]

You make some good points. However, there is a bit of inherent hypocrisy: every single captive-bred garter snake on the planet - in fact, ever single domesticated animal - at some point in history was a wild-caught. Whether the snake's mother, grandmother, or distant ancestor, at some point in their family history there is a wild-caught animal. So unless we're supposing that all trade in snakes cease and desist, we're still right back where we started from: someone had to collect those wild-caught specimens in order to breed them.

In some cases, this might turn out to be a good thing. Take for example the San Fran: due to habitat loss, the snake is nearly extinct. But because someone captured a few, bred them, and shipped them overseas, at least there are some still remaining. Who knows? If California enacts procedures that might help restore the SF's habitat, there might be opportunity for some of these captive snakes to be allowed to reinhabit their once-lost environ. Does this make it okay for someone to take them now? Not if it will severely impact the local breeding population, which, with an endangered animal like the SF, it almost certainly will. But what about with a T. s. sirtalis, whose habitat ranges all the way from Florida up into Canada? These guys aren't going extinct anytime soon.

Captive-bred animals: at some point, they had to be taken from the wild.

Well said.

I do agree that taking them from the wild could have a negative impact on something or other, (the bird that missed its meal, the earth worm that lived, etc.) but I think if its done in moderation, its okay. I wouldn't condone just anyone who has no will to learn about them, or some random kid who doesn't know what they're doing with a garter to take them... But I think if someone who is genuinely interested in caring for them takes one from the wild and properly attends to it, it would be okay.

[wolfpacksved]

So why do it? To get a snake for free? That it's not as damaging as habitat loss, is not really a justification.

The snakes I have are all wild caught. I prefer local snakes because if they don't adjust to captivity I can turn them loose where I found them. And, no, I am not going to pay for a snake if I can find one on my own. I guess you have never found a snake and kept it huh?

[PitGirl89]

I don't think that the comment you've quoted was meant to be insulting, I think Stefan was just exploring all of the issues at hand when taking a snake from its natural habitat. All arguments are fair I'd think.

[Quibble]

Oppinion diversity is good, I think.
If everyone felt the same way It would be one extreme or another. Either wild populations or trade availability would suffer. ;)

[Millinex]

Hell I'll probably be collecting a few from a construction site tomorrow morning, along with any other animal I can find there.

[drache]

I would like to add that I would be a lot less condoning of even the most well-intentioned hobbyist taking snakes from the wild, if snakes were on everybody's favourite pet list; but the fact is that even with all this increased open-mindedness toward "unusual" pets, there's still hardly any danger that everybody's going to run out to pluck their own from the wild, so I'm not that concerned yet

[charles parenteau]

Collecting snake and habitat destruction are two different thing!!
I will talk about collecting wild snake.
When someone is collecting snake de question is what he gonna do with it???what the purpose??
Make money,sell to someone? I don't know how many on our forum buy adult wild caught specimen gravid .that pissed me off .Adult snake should never be collected .IN some case its ok for exemple I cant release my big mama There is house and building where she was found.
Usuall y I release each adult female after she gave birth. after few meal.
I see those female year after year.

If people want to collect wild snake its year born babies or from preceding year.Or as I do collecting gravid female for the babies and release her after.Adult are so important !babies are less important .
2/100 of babies reach maturity .98/100 die.YOu probably save babie life when collecting or on 40 born babies from those gravid female probably one wild reach maturity.
Population depend on adult snake!ITs so hard to get adult if they are its because they are the strongest they have viable hibernaculum ,less predator than babies ,few factor that make theme irreplaeable.
If you want wild snake for pet ,take baby or juvenil.NOt adult that my point.I was talking about garter snake only (sirtalis sirtalis).
MY english is to bad tonight hope you all understand.

Collecting is not good anyway but its worst when its for living!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stefan-A]

You make some good points. However, there is a bit of inherent hypocrisy: every single captive-bred garter snake on the planet - in fact, ever single domesticated animal - at some point in history was a wild-caught. Whether the snake's mother, grandmother, or distant ancestor, at some point in their family history there is a wild-caught animal. So unless we're supposing that all trade in snakes cease and desist, we're still right back where we started from: someone had to collect those wild-caught specimens in order to breed them.
Considering that those wild snake have already been collected, there's a tremendous difference in impact between catching an animal and buying a descendant of a wild caught specimen, for the simple reason that only one or two animals removed from the wild can be enough to answer the needs of dozens or hundreds of people and by buying captive bred animals, you are in fact supporting captive breeding, as opposed to capturing wild ones.


In some cases, this might turn out to be a good thing. Take for example the San Fran: due to habitat loss, the snake is nearly extinct. But because someone captured a few, bred them, and shipped them overseas, at least there are some still remaining. Who knows? If California enacts procedures that might help restore the SF's habitat, there might be opportunity for some of these captive snakes to be allowed to reinhabit their once-lost environ. Does this make it okay for someone to take them now? Not if it will severely impact the local breeding population, which, with an endangered animal like the SF, it almost certainly will. But what about with a T. s. sirtalis, whose habitat ranges all the way from Florida up into Canada? These guys aren't going extinct anytime soon.It's not as simple as going by scientific names. Reducing the size of the population also reduces the gene pool and gene flow between populations. The consequence of that is reduced viability and resilience.

Speaking of the SanFran, I still doubt that a thousand inbred specimens would be of much use in any reintroduction work. If you pardon the slight exaggeration, it would be like using pugs for reintroducing Canis lupus. The best solution would be to work with the extant wild population.


Captive-bred animals: at some point, they had to be taken from the wild.That's a bit of a red herring, don't you think?

[Stefan-A]

The snakes I have are all wild caught. I prefer local snakes because if they don't adjust to captivity I can turn them loose where I found them. And, no, I am not going to pay for a snake if I can find one on my own.
How about if the snake you caught needs medical attention? Will you take it to the vet, or will you turn it loose and just catch a new one?


I guess you have never found a snake and kept it huh?
That guess would be correct. I've never kept a wild snake longer than it has taken me to get it out of immediate danger.

[wolfpacksved]

Yes, i have taken snakes to the vet. I also quarantine animals & treat for parasites before introducing to main collection. But no need for that these days-- I am not a compulsive snake collector. Photograph animals, bout it.

[Didymus20X6]

That's a bit of a red herring, don't you think?
Not really. It demonstrates two points:

1. Because some wild specimens have been caught of certain species under certain conditions without impact to either the populations or the environment, then it shows that, with careful consideration, it can still be done. The exception, of course, being when a particular species is endangered, or of being overly collected.

2. It still holds true that, if it is inherently wrong to collect a wild specimen, then having collected them at all is inherently wrong, which, in turn, makes keeping them, even captive bred, hypocritical at best. In other words, someone has already taken that gamble, and now we're being told we shouldn't gamble at all?

In addition, several other considerations have already been put forward in this thread in which, not only is catching them wild acceptable, but in fact preferable. For example:

1. a scenario, like Millinex's construction site, or even my neighborhood, where the snakes are likely to be killed by other people anyway. If I were to keep a snake, it would be one from my own neighborhood.

2. even a scenario you alluded to, where certain lines of captive-bred snakes are heavily inbred and in need of fresh genes.

3. and yes, even a case where a person can't afford to shell out the bucks for a top of the line thoroughbred snake.

And even relocation isn't always a great option. What if it causes a sudden boom to the population in that area, killing off potential prey, or causing other natural predators to starve? There is just as much risk in releasing a wild-caught snake as in keeping it. And as many of the other members have pointed out, whatever course of action - to catch, to buy, to release - it must be done with the risks carefully weighted.

And yes, there's even risk to buying captive-bred animals, too. Let's not even try to deny that.

[Stefan-A]

Not really. It demonstrates two points:

1. Because some wild specimens have been caught of certain species under certain conditions without impact to either the populations or the environment, then it shows that, with careful consideration, it can still be done. The exception, of course, being when a particular species is endangered, or of being overly collected.
That is a very dangerous assumption to make. There are plenty of examples of the removal wild specimens, either through collecting or killing, having a devastating effect on the populations.


2. It still holds true that, if it is inherently wrong to collect a wild specimen, then having collected them at all is inherently wrong, which, in turn, makes keeping them, even captive bred, hypocritical at best. In other words, someone has already taken that gamble, and now we're being told we shouldn't gamble at all?
I'm not arguing the point that it's inherently wrong, but as a side note, it seemed like that was the argument that the OP was talking about.


In addition, several other considerations have already been put forward in this thread in which, not only is catching them wild acceptable, but in fact preferable. For example:

1. a scenario, like Millinex's construction site, or even my neighborhood, where the snakes are likely to be killed by other people anyway.
Relocation is an option.


2. even a scenario you alluded to, where certain lines of captive-bred snakes are heavily inbred and in need of fresh genes.
Ultimately, few snakes have reached that point and those that have, don't need "fresh genes" specifically from wildcaught specimens. In the case of the SanFran, the benefits don't outweigh the drawbacks.


3. and yes, even a case where a person can't afford to shell out the bucks for a top of the line thoroughbred snake.
Nobody's getting a thoroughbred top of the line snake by catching one and there are alternatives to them. Sure, you might get your hands on an exceptionally nice snake that way, but you're not going to find anything comparable to a snake that's been selectively bred for a certain trait.

How would such a person afford to keep an animal, if he couldn't even afford to purchase a captive bred one? It's something we see with cats all the time, the cheaper the animal, the worse it's cared for. I'm not saying it's a rule, it definitely isn't, but it is a trend. A few years ago, I had a run-in on Kingsnake with a person who did explicitly say that he would never take a sick wildcaught snake to a vet, because he'd get away cheaper by just discarding it and catching a new one.


And even relocation isn't always a great option. What if it causes a sudden boom to the population in that area, killing off potential prey, or causing other natural predators to starve?
That's a risk, but compared to breeding and releasing dozens or hundreds at a time, it's a minor risk.


There is just as much risk in releasing a wild-caught snake as in keeping it. And as many of the other members have pointed out, whatever course of action - to catch, to buy, to release - it must be done with the risks carefully weighted.
I agree with the latter statement.


And yes, there's even risk to buying captive-bred animals, too. Let's not even try to deny that.
That depends on the risk you are referring to. I can indeed think of several risks involved with buying captive-bred animals, ranging from diseases to accidental release of the animals, but the risks specifically to the populations their ancestors were collected from, are minimal.

[charles parenteau]

Stephan and didymus you both have very good point and I should read to post again to a better understanding.


Didymus I agree when you say that certain lines of captive bred snake are heavily inbreed and new gene are needed .
That what happen with eastern flame.All came from the same place and over 15 years flame are not what they supposed to be .Poor red or orange ,flame become dull as adult .ect.I want to restore the standard.

Its not for money or glory I think Its selfishness .Its a personal goal its not for the market or for sell.
I obey to the fundamental rules and I think I don't have negative effect on wild population.But someone told me even if im well intentionned I can have negative effect .Its absolutely right.
Every action I made is well calculated .
REstore the flame standard and produce 3 strippes flame are the 2 main reasons why I collect wild snake.I just want to clarify what I'M doing that make me feel better.

[Millinex]

Stefan relocation isn't exactly a viable option in my case. The area is crawling with them and I would probably hurt both the new snake and the population of wherever I relocate it to, not to mention the survival chances for a large female garter is slim compared to some of the smaller/slender snakes who can manage to run/hide.

I actually managed to capture another one from the site today, to rehome to a family and teach them about garters, all parties win.. Except the rattler I had no way to bring home/mother who would kill me.

[Didymus20X6]

You found a rattler, and you're more worried about your mom killing you?

[Millinex]

You found a rattler, and you're more worried about your mom killing you?

I live with her, she is against me keeping one in the house/on the property, or I would have kept it. However in the field I am confident in my ability to handle it, for now I was forced to simply move him off the trail and enjoy him for about 45 minutes, hopefully he is still there when my gf and I head out there in a few mins so we can move him far away from the trail and get some good pictures.

Rattlers aren't as bad as a lot of people claim, and are one of the easiest hots to handle IMO, would have been a great snake to keep though!

[MasSalvaje]

Rattlers aren't as bad as a lot of people claim, and are one of the easiest hots to handle IMO, would have been a great snake to keep though!

Lets worry about the original can of worms before we open a second.

This debate will go on forever, and to be honest I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I have my own oppinion on the matter based on my own experiences, as does everyone else.

Ultimately there is no way to prove that a WC specimen will/will not have a negative impact on a population. There is too much data on both sides to come to any scientificly credible conclusion, so we each need to make up our own minds on the matter and accept others views.

To the original poster; Make up your own mind on the matter. You are the only one that knows for sure if you have the means to properly care for the animal as well as put up with any heat that may come your way for so doing. If you can't give the snake a good home or you can't deal with the opposite view's take on the matter you should certainly let it go.

-Thomas

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This is a reoccurring topic, one that I feel should continue to keep our ethical approaches in check. We may not all agree about the best strategies to keep wild populations wild and healthy, nor can we all come up with perfect reasons to justify our acquisition of wild-caughts. This forum is great, in that we can agree to disagree and remain civil. Yes, there may exist some hypocrisy in some of our excuses. At least we are trying to educate ourselves! For every controversial, well-thought out decision in our acquisitions, remember there are tons of idiots and ruthless small children who never give a thought.

In regards to conservation, I am apt to lean towards Stefan's understanding of potential impacts on populations. Sure relocation beats decapitation or being buried under the dozer, but relocation is very iffy, and does not guarantee the survival of a released animal or members of the existing predator complex residing in the locality of the release. Keeping a W/C for the same reason one might want to relocate the snake is an issue whereby we may never obtain closure... I have seen too many arguments trying to justify keeping W/C's, and my own reasons skirt contradiction, since I too keep W/C's.

My keeping W/C's is for the sole purpose of research. Sure, I enjoy the animals, or I wouldn't be studying them. I also understand that the observations I make and the notes I take will not necessarily give me the true picture of what is going on in the wild. Still, the information collected is valuable. If something new is learned, something that can actually find its way into scientific texts, then I personally feel justified. My interest with local species revolves around genetics and prey selection, and it my belief that this research is very helpful in understanding the local population dynamics of not just garters, but also garter predators and prey. I am also continuously perplexed by garter diversity and the possibility of hybridization in the wild (if indeed we'd like to call it that, or go the whole nine yards in trying to define what a "species" actually is). For all those who keep C/B's, such research might help explain some of the captive genetics. [Please don't confuse this research with C/B projects that try to mix species and create "Frankengarters"!]

For any of you who have watched the 2 "competing" documentaries that try to predict life on earth without the presence of humans (They've been aired the last year on the Science, History and other channels...), you should realize HUMANS are indeed the most detrimental species to the planet; we are the most invasive, intrusive, and yes, apparently we are worse than radiation! Chernobyl has witnessed returns in the counts of healthy red deer populations since people were forced to vacate the area... Okay, I'm going off on a tangent, but the point is - anything we do, whether for selfish reasons or even good-hearted one- will have an impact!

Once again, from a conservation standpoint, BE CAUTIOUS in any wild-collecting or relocating you might do! Amphibian populations are being threatened worldwide. You may have healthy garter populations in your neck of the woods today, but chytrid fungus could be around the corner tomorrow, ready to wipe out up to 80% of any affected ampibian species living there within the first year of its establishment. Oh no! That thought might give someone the impression we should snag a few garters to give the frogs a chance. Please, NO!

I have to state that I believe the world is going to S--T! Mother Earth is in a transitional phase where the S--T has indeed hit the fan, and things ARE going to change! It appears to me that many of the strategies park systems and Fish and Game are attempting may be mute; we're out there trying to save species by intervening [best justified when the problem was a result of human actions!], and in many cases we don't even think about whether or not a particular species is meant to survive. Mother Nature "doesn't care" if a species survives! Evolution after all is a ruthless affair, and the presence of any species is a wonderful novelty.

I work at Redwood National and State Parks. I spend a lot of time on the prairies combatting exotic vegetation. The fire crews also cut and burn firs and oaks to keep the forest from swallowing the prairies. These prairies have existed for about a 1000 years, and were originally maintained (via burning) by Native Americans in the area. In effect, man has been interfering with a natural process. These prairies would not exist without us, but since they have been around for so long, we are now continuing the burns so we can maintain all the animal and plant species that have adapted to living there. If we were to stop the burns, the gopher snakes, racers, mountain garters, the deer and elk, etc, etc might not be as plentiful as they are right now. Since we have have cattle ranchers neighboring the park, their is public fear about introducing wolves or other previously native predators to the park. Thus we may have large herds of elk, but their genetics are weak. The whole natural process has been tweaked to fit our often less-than-educated understanding of it.

So, how does this relate to W/C garters? Well, it's more of a vibe and feeling. The planet is "f----d", and we often don't have a clue as to how damaging our intentions may be, whether selfish or selfless!

So, keep showing your concern. At least WE are by talking about it! We may not find the solution, but hopefully we will attain a better sense of objectivity regarding the controversy.

Rambling again,

Steve

[jitami]

Nicely said, Steve. I enjoy your ramblings :)

[mustang]

i too keep wild snakes and like steven i enjoy rambling...but hate typing it

[PitGirl89]

I think theres a lot of very interesting information posted here already.

In my own personal case, because of where I live, its not possible to acquire a Garter from a breeder. It is illegal to breed and sell Garter snakes in captivity here in Quebec. Its hard to find good/reputable breeders when it comes to all animals, and I would rather not support someones income by buying a snake from them if I can't see first hand how they're kept.

[jamromhem]

There is alot of different things that play into this to make a single determination on what is right or wrong.

Take the situation that landed me with my pretty little checkered.

She was in my drained pool. The average person would have :
A) left her there. (which would have lead to her death now that the 40 consecutive 100+F days in a row have drained the rest of the water collected in the pool)

B) killed her.

C) call animal control that might or might not have killed her.

a most likely dead snake is less use to the wild than one that is caught allowed to bread in captivity and then releasing a potion of the young back into the wild at a better location.

I think if you are WCing and breading the WC snakes you should return some of what you got. That might make the difference from you still being able to find them next year. Just my thought.

If your not breading and saved the snake from death then let it enjoy the fact that it was allowed to live X number of years longer as it would have no impact on the local population dead or alive at your house.

While the released young may not survive neither does all wild born young, but atleast you gave them a chance to return to their natural population.

[ssssnakeluvr]

very well put Steve!!!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I think if you are WCing and breading the WC snakes you should return some of what you got. That might make the difference from you still being able to find them next year. Just my thought. While the released young may not survive neither does all wild born young, but atleast you gave them a chance to return to their natural population.

A noble thought, but C/B snakes from W/C parents ethically (and usually legally) should not or can not be released into the wild. There is no guarantee of success for the offspring, and the general reasoning concerns immunities, parasites, inherited preferential dietary behaviors, and environmental impact. Perhaps if you just caught a W/C mother, and she's about to pop, might I agree with releasing the babies immediately after birth in the same location where the mother was caught.

This is a classic example of how good intentions mess with the complex natural cycles of ecosystems.

[MasSalvaje]

A noble thought, but C/B snakes from W/C parents ethically (and usually legally) should not or can not be released into the wild.

This is a classic example of how good intentions mess with the complex natural cycles of ecosystems.

I know here in Utah it is illegal to release a snake that has been in captivity for any amount of time. A lot of people stretch that law by releasing a specimen a week or two later and to the exact same spot it was found.

If you are going to catch and keep a WC snake you need to be ready to care for it for the duration of its life and not use the excuse that because it is a WC it can be released at anytime.

-Thomas

[jamromhem]

I was unaware of the legality thing with releasing them, but I guess that means over time should a population take a hit the most of it will end up being a captive population by us to preserve a species.

Who knows, maybe by us having our Cptives we are saving the ecosystem when the rest of the human race screws something up and they need 1000 radix to save an ecosystem. and they have to go beg greg :P LOL

[ssssnakeluvr]

the legality part differs state by state...best to check with your state. Utah is pretty picky here.

[guidofatherof5]

Who knows, maybe by us having our Cptives we are saving the ecosystem when the rest of the human race screws something up and they need 1000 radix to save an ecosystem. and they have to go beg greg :P LOL

Did I hear someone needed a 1000 radixes. Only 1000?:D

[jere000]

Did I hear someone needed a 1000 radixes. Only 1000?:D
you should post pics of your dekayi

[charles parenteau]

Steve Its a nice rambling.

Gonna release my extra babies in my friend back yard .where my female is from..An artificial hibernaculum was built 2 years ago,there is enough space for futur generation.The local population is in decline I think the hibernaculum was destroy few years ago.
Soon house will be built on other side of the small creek.My friend made an artificial pool or pond for frogs to assure their survival because theire is no more place for tadpole .the creek usually overflood an makes temporary pond which is vital for tadpole.GArter snake will have their meat safe.

THis is a restricted area few back yard in a row along the creek very small
and the local garter snake population is not connected with other population so We will release all extra babies right on hibernaculum in september.So what ever happen Its not harmful for other garter snake.Because of my friend action there is snakes at present.
THis is the best place to release babies.
THis is like a big vivarium.

I have photos of his hibernaculum construction step by step same for the artificial pond but I will ask permission before posting pictures.

[drache]

it would be great to see the photos, especially for those of us who hope in the future to build outdoor terraria - probably the enclosures section would be a good place to put them
I can't see anyone taking issue with you posting them, since they're most definitely garter related

[bsol]

If I may...
All to often in these topics we sometimes forget about the Natural Selection process. If we remove an animal from its habitat whether it be WC caught along a creek or by deforestation, it goes without saying that the environment will then be without that specimen. For the same reason a toad with lay 100s of eggs only for a small % of them to make it to adulthood. So because we inhabitate this planent we are apart of that selection process. While plucking a garter from a field isnt quite the same as demolishing a hundred acre's of land, in terms of impacting the foodchain/selection process it is.
If it is pre-determined somewhere that a predator is to make a meal out of an adult garter at some point in that animals life, us removing that garter will shift that animals predetation to something else at that time. We're not talking about Doc Brown and the Delorean type stuff, I'm just shrinking the system down into an understandable message. ANYWAY, my wc garter removal its not going to destroy the eco system, but the animal that was to consume the garter may eat a field mouse, or rattlesnake, or whatever.
With all that nonsense I just typed, I'm basically saying by you, me, or the kingsnake removing the garter from its habitat THAT is apart of the selection process. Some people will argue the fact that a building isnt natural(and by no means is it natural in comparrison to an oaktree), it is infact natural to our planet(in 2009) as are we. Laws are written for a ton of reasons. Some in genuine protection of something(including us), and some just for political reasons. In either case, its a law. In Quebec, the rules for garters seem different than here, BUT it still apart of the natural selection process.
So in conclusion, people who are against wc garters have the same opinion level as people who are for catching them. The numbers may not balance out, but the push-pull method will.

uuuhhh... I'm wondering is this made sense to anyone else but me:confused:.

Hope I didnt piss anyone off or make anyone think I'm nuts, but hey if you do think I'm nuts, I guess natural selection says I dont need anymore friends!
hehe!!:)

[drache]

basically, what you're saying, as I understand it, is that out there in nature it's a crap shoot either way, and humans can be regarded as just another predator

[bsol]

yeah no matter which way the door swings. Whether your catching a garter(or whatever) and keeping it or clearing some forest destroying its home, that animal is displaced. Its not a bad thing, its just the selective process...
Giving a garter a chance at life by releasing it in another location free of human interaction just means that a toad/frog/worm may be in danger of becoming that snakes meal.
We fall short of thinking through things when we have the best intention of 1 animal in mind. You might be doing right by that garter, but screwing the toad in the mean time! The environment you realse the garter in is now either 1 up by way of predator in the food chain, or 1 down.
It is what it is. If no animal(including us) fell victim to premature death, then imagine how life would work.
If we take, and this might be a bad example and spark a crazy debate, war for example; people obviously die during war time. Whether it be just or not. Its just natural selection. Its sad, but again it is what it is! Got to look at it as a whole!

[jamromhem]

I wouldn't mind a few radix LOL I would have to convince the wife of it though :P.. Think I might want to get through a few seasons with my checkered first to make sure I am not getting over whelmed by inexperience.

I am trying to figure out the brumation thing now to get ready for when it is time.

I have a minifridge I don't use for anything but storing her food.. Might turn it on the highest temp setting and use it making sure I open the door daily to cycle the air.. I dunno. I'll read more and try to get ideas.

[DavidD]

My current garters (easterns) are all rescues. They both hav ebaboes every year. Every year I love havign baby garters around. (I have 14 now)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

can I ask... what are ebaboes????????

[jitami]

can I ask... what are ebaboes????????

LOL I think I can translate :D


They both hav ebaboes every year.

They both have babies every year :)

[wolfpacksved]

hav ebaboes = have babies

[jamromhem]

lol typos at it's worst :P

[snickersnake]

The reason I did it was because I had already relocated this snake twice (well, it looked and acted like the same snake). Each time we mow, I check the lawn for snakes and toads so that I can move them. We have a lot of garters in our clippings pile in the field and in our large garden.

This little garter kept going out to the middle of our patio and each time I picked her up, she was almost friendly (my vet was surprised, too). She was very little and when I caught her a 3rd time, I was really worried that she would get eaten by something, or mowed. Although I hadn't kept a garter in 10 years, I had had garters much of my life - gifts from friends and purchased from pet stores. I had most of the stuff to keep her.

I felt a little guilty - I still do - about keeping her but I was worried about her. I didn't know that there were people who were acting the way you describe. I guess I've just been lucky to have very helpful people answer my questions.

[FunkyRes]

So why do it? To get a snake for free? That it's not as damaging as habitat loss, is not really a justification.

I do it from time to time because I like locality animals produced by natural selection opposed to selectively inbred animals that do not represent the wild phenotype.

[FunkyRes]

No, that's true, it's not going to have the same impact, but a snake permanently removed from the wild is less useful than a relocated one with a 0.01% chance of survival, or even a dead one. The problem is that it still has a negative impact. From an animal welfare point of view, you might have a case, but not necessarily from a conservation perspective.

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the vast majority of animals over produce.
The impact of small scale collection on the population is thus null. The limiting factor that determines population size is available resources. Over production means far more young are produced than the habitat can possibly sustain. Collecting a few specimens has no impact on the population.

For desirable species, collecting and captive breeding may actually have a positive impact. Poaching of Cal Kings is virtually non existent because captive bred Cal Kings are dirt cheap and usually more visually appealing than wild type.

[Stefan-A]

I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but the vast majority of animals over produce.
I am well aware of it. Are you aware that the reason for this, is the very high mortality rate, which by no means needs to be increased?


The impact of small scale collection on the population is thus null.Whether small scale collection occurs, is impossible to determine by looking at the actions of one single person who only collects a couple. Or to give another similar example: The impact of one person throwing one can of solvents into a lake is null. You get the picture.

Now, why would anyone encourage either action on the grounds that the impact is null when it's done on a "small scale"?


The limiting factor that determines population size is available resources. Over production means far more young are produced than the habitat can possibly sustain.Let's not forget that the population is also a part of the "available resources".


Collecting a few specimens has no impact on the population.Agreed, but I hope you understand what the problems are with that way of reasoning.

[GarterGeek]

I don't know, but is it possible that this topic is too dependent on specific situations to be effectively argued?

In some situations keeping wild-caught animals may have little, no or a positive impact whereas in other situations it may have a negative impact. For example; because San Francisco Garters are so rare in the wild, removing one from it's habitat will probably have a negative outcome on the overall population. However, eastern common garters are fairly common in their range, thus removing one probably won't have much impact.

Does this make sense? The fishing and boating commission in my state has regulations for how many of each species you are allowed to harvest each day. The game commission follows a similar concept with much success.

On a more personal note:), my garter snakes are wild-caught. I have two main reasons for this.
#1 In my state it is illegal to sell native reptiles. I coudn't buy one, even if I wanted to.
#2 It is an educational experience which I relish. I get to learn about the creatures that surround me in my habitat as they have not been tarnished through generations of captive breeding and their behavior and instincts are entirely natural. I can provide the snake with food from it's natural habitat (my backyard), which is also part of the learning experience. Also, in catching the snake myself I feel more attached and responsible for it.

[TheSnakeGuy1]

I don't like it when people take fully grown wild animlas into captivity, when they been wild there whole life. I don't mind if they take something out of the wild if its younger than 1 month. I just caught a week old garter, 5 inches long! So im trying to get it to eat for me and if it does im going to tame her down and domesticate her.
-Alex

[FunkyRes]

For example; because San Francisco Garters are so rare in the wild, removing one from it's habitat will probably have a negative outcome on the overall population.

The problem with SF Garters isn't small numbers as much as it is extremely small range that has largely been built. Where they persist, either they have good numbers or there are non collection impacts on their overall population (such as the elimination of their primary prey item, Rana draytonii).

Ever year, hundreds of snakes are killed by cars.
Small scale collection removes peanuts compared to road kill.
Yet the populations persist - and where they do not persist, it is almost always because of habitat alteration.

Another issue with SF Garters is that they exist largely in isolated populations, which means if a particular population is over collected, there is no corridor for production in neighboring populations to move in and replenish the site. This can result in excessive inbreeding among the garters that remain which can cause a population crash.

A study done on Sagebrush lizards showed that intentionally depleting an area resulted in lizards from neighboring areas quickly moving in, that can't happen with isolated populations.

[GarterGeek]

The problem with SF Garters isn't small numbers as much as it is extremely small range that has largely been built. Where they persist, either they have good numbers or there are non collection impacts on their overall population (such as the elimination of their primary prey item, Rana draytonii).

Ever year, hundreds of snakes are killed by cars.
Small scale collection removes peanuts compared to road kill.
Yet the populations persist - and where they do not persist, it is almost always because of habitat alteration.

Another issue with SF Garters is that they exist largely in isolated populations, which means if a particular population is over collected, there is no corridor for production in neighboring populations to move in and replenish the site. This can result in excessive inbreeding among the garters that remain which can cause a population crash.

A study done on Sagebrush lizards showed that intentionally depleting an area resulted in lizards from neighboring areas quickly moving in, that can't happen with isolated populations.

What you say makes sense, and I have no arguement against it. :)

I was merely saying that the arguements for and against collecting wild-caught specimens may not be applicable in all situations. Although, there are much greater problems for the San Fransisco Garters, privately collecting them for pets is probably not a good decision. Common Eastern Garters are abundant and removing two or three should not cause a great problem. It might not have been the greatest of examples, but it was the first to come to mind. :rolleyes:

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I don't like it when people take fully grown wild animlas into captivity, when they been wild there whole life.

I agree with this statement. #1) Adults are set in their ways. For example, they may have grown up adopting a selective diet, and may be more difficult to feed. Also, the longer a snake has spent time in the wild, the more chance it has had of acquiring parasites. (Okay, those are "captive" reasons) #2) The odds of a neonate snake being eaten by a natural predator is still quite high, whereas larger adults have undergone many trials in evading predators; mature adults who have gathered experience in the evasion of predators are more likely to continue to do so, and thus be more likely to create more successive and healthier offspring; I especially do not agree with the collecting of gravid specimens.

This is one of those classic threads where some of us have to agree to disagree.

All 4 of my garters are wild-caught natives; these can not be purchased within the state of California, but there is a small bag limit with a fishing license. My native snakes collection is used in several presentations I hold each year at the HSU Natural History Museum, the College of the Redwoods, and at various other schools. I am always inspired when I can make a difference in educating the masses about these animals. I often have to play the hypocrite in my lectures about not catching these animals and keeping them in captivity, and this is the main reason why: Of the many families that visit these events, the most common reference to keeping these snakes in captivity involves ruthless, young children bringing their "garden snakes" or "striped racers" home and putting them in a cardboard box or some other inappropriate enclosure and feeding them mealworms, etc. I let the adults know that garters have special habitat and care requirements, and make their care sound more difficult than it usually is. Of course I am pretty OCD when it comes to making their enclosures look like their native habitat (I don't use plastic rocks and plants, and I use [sterilized] native substrate). Sooo.... I use my animals to educate. I mean, not many people are going to go to an educational lecture about native garters if all you have to show them are a bunch of posters and pictures in books. Only the hardcore naturalists or herpetoculturists are going to hit the PowerPoint (only) presentation. I want to hit the masses, and many of "them", "they" that rarely READ anything of value, want to see a live snake!

Aside from my endeavors with HumboldtHerps, I am also a Biology major engaged in local herp studies. In studies that cover dietary preferences, growth rates, genetics, etc. captive specimens are often a requirement. Please note, that many wildlife studies (professionally funded scientific endeavors) involve the capture, death, and dissection of numerous individuals. I read one doctorate study on Pituophis where over 200 specimens where killed just to see what the dietary trends were... To me, this is an unfortunate and excessive amount, yet this stuff happens all the time.

I really appreciate Stefan-A's continual defense of wild-caughts in this and other threads; in the big picture of things, his view is noble, responsible, and yes, there is never any guarantee that we will ever really know what effect we have on the local populations when we collect wild specimens...
We may just be another predator in the scheme of things (that's not a justification either, since humans have a mind that can choose to do otherwise). Tsk, tsk... What else to say on this most stimulating argument...

Have a great weekend! (That works)

Steven K.