WC Litter (DUW)

[Michelle.C]

A few weeks ago I rescued a gravid female Eastern Garter from being chopped up by our neighbors. She had a slight infection which I rectified by taking her to the vet. Anyway, I grew fond of her and decided to keep her until she gave birth and then release her and most of the offspring behind our house where I found them (a stream). Well, she gave birth last night to 35 babies. One has a pretty bad kink. :(

She and her babies are very lovely and some of them resemble their dams unusual appearance.

I'm posting them to ask two questions; 1: What do you think about the baby with a kink? Do you think she could live a captive life? (The kinked baby is in the second photo, bottom, middle) She's the one that appears silverish. 2: What do you think of the litters appearance? Is it normal for them to be blue/green? I think I counted around 7 that are blue or green.

It's really amazing how different some of them are. Some are dark brown with broad stripes, yellowish with round spots, light brown with yellow stripes, some are blotchy and one even appears to be void of spots and stripes. They are all so cute!

ANY input is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Dam
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/IMG_2273.jpg

Her "litter".
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/garter2.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/garter3.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/garter5.jpg

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/garter6.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Welcome aboard. :)

1. Maybe, but there are never any guarantees.
2. Their coloration will change as they grow.

[guidofatherof5]

Great save. You did well. The babies look super.
If the one with the kink is against the side of the tub then I don't see captive life as a problem. It's still so early for them. You need to see how it gets along. Eating, digestion, shedding. Could you post a photo of the kinked one alone? Once again, nice save.(I'm applauding you, now):)

[gregmonsta]

Congrats on the litter :D ... a pic of the kinked would on it's own would be good ;)

[drache]

welcome to the forum, Michelle, and congrats
I'm not sure that I can clearly see the kink, but I can tell you that last year I had a litter of easterns with one that has an extremely kinked spine in the rear third of the body in front of the vent; that snake is doing fantastically well, and has outpaced her siblings in appetite and growth rate, so it's possible; on the other hand I've also seen the other example of the kinked spine where the snake just doesn't thrive
chances are, if your baby moves around and eats normally, the kink won't be an issue
oh - and personally I really like the greenish ones

[Michelle.C]

Thank you all for the kind welcome and responses!

The kinked baby has a problem getting around. I'll find her in the middle of the tub while her siblings are pushed all the way to the back. I move her back with them and a few hours later, find her off by herself again. The double kink is in the first 1/3 of her little body.

There is also the issue of the stuck skin on her. I don't think she has the strength to remove it and she's too tiny for me to help her. I have them all on moist paper towels right now, but it doesn't seem like she can remove it. Anyone have any suggestions?

They really are a cuteness overload. Every time I walk back in the herp room, I have to open their tub and stare at them. I have no idea how I'm going to choose which ones to keep and to release. I had the intention of keeping a couple, but now I'm going to be hard pressed to release a couple of them.

I really like the greenish ones too, but I also really like the dark brown ones, and the light yellow ones, oh..and the dark one with lots of blotches...Okay, I like them all! :D

Kinked baby.
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/IMG_2373.jpg

More pictures of the group.
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/IMG_2375.jpg

Everyone together. :D
http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj308/c-cain/IMG_2378.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

A sink full of warm water and a good soaking should help that shed come off. Once shes soak for a few minutes you can just pull it off. I sometimes hold them under running warm water and peel the old skin off. The water will go under the old skin and it will fill up like a balloon, making removal much easier.
To be honest I am still having trouble seeing the kinks. Can you get a side shot of the kink area? Thanks.

[Michelle.C]

A sink full of warm water and a good soaking should help that shed come off. Once shes soak for a few minutes you can just pull it off. I sometimes hold them under running warm water and peel the old skin off. The water will go under the old skin and it will fill up like a balloon, making removal much easier.
To be honest I am still having trouble seeing the kinks. Can you get a side shot of the kink area? Thanks.

I tried soaking her, it wouldn't come off. I'm afraid of holding her under running water, she's really, really tiny. I will try though. I'll also see if I can't get someone with actual nails to see if they can help her.

I'll get a side shot of her when I get home. There is one really large lump and then a kink to the right.

One more question, when do you think they'll be ready to eat? I mostly deal with Old World Colubrids and Pythons. While I've raised Garters before, none quite this small. Thanks for the help!

[drache]

don't use anyone's nails
just wet-bag the little one
running water seems really risky to me

Steve - the one with the kink is the pale grey one whose bluish head is in the middle of the left bunch in the last photo - kink near heart area

[guidofatherof5]

Now I see it. Thanks Rhea.

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like the tail area needs done also. Here's a link to another thread. Give it a try. http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5014-cheap-shed-box.html

[Michelle.C]

I didn't mean so they could scratch it off with their nails. :p I meant nails are easier if you are trying to remove tiny things. To me they always were anyway.

The running water idea is good in theory, but she's too fragile. I'm not so sure she's going to make it. :( She has normal body movement about half way down her body, but where the kinks are, it's almost like she's completely paralyzed. She flicks her tongue, etc. though.

I've had her in a humid shoe box all morning and the moment they were born they were all in a humid tub, so I don't understand why it's being so stubborn. It's stuck to her almost like glue.

Also, when should I start offering them food?

Thanks once again!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

the blueish green ones will turn brown very shortly! they always do! I always see that in eastern clutches... like half of the babies come out looking silvery blue. nice looking clutch... I like the ones with the dark neck spots!

[guidofatherof5]

I didn't mean so they could scratch it off with their nails. :p I meant nails are easier if you are trying to remove tiny things. To me they always were anyway.

The running water idea is good in theory, but she's too fragile. I'm not so sure she's going to make it. :( She has normal body movement about half way down her body, but where the kinks are, it's almost like she's completely paralyzed. She flicks her tongue, etc. though.

I've had her in a humid shoe box all morning and the moment they were born they were all in a humid tub, so I don't understand why it's being so stubborn. It's stuck to her almost like glue.

Also, when should I start offering them food?

Thanks once again!

I have a young snake(now almost 1 year old) with a severe case of scoliosis. I have to hand shed him. He eats on his own and holds his own with the others but need help shedding.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/crinkle3.jpg


I'd start offering food as soon as you can. I feel that there is a window of opportunity for newborns and that if it gets passed by too many times they won't eat, ever. This is just a therory of mine. I offer newborns food their second day and everyday after that point. I even offer 2 or 3 times a day. For the first couple of months I feed them as often as they will eat. Once again, I feel they need to do as much growing as they can.
Some babies suffer from "failure to thrive". I don't think the eating switch(as I call it) was ever turned on, maybe not even delevoped. I once in awhile lose a baby to this.

[Michelle.C]

the blueish green ones will turn brown very shortly! they always do! I always see that in eastern clutches... like half of the babies come out looking silvery blue. nice looking clutch... I like the ones with the dark neck spots!

I love the ones with dark neck spots too, I kept all three of them! I also kept a few of the blue/green ones in hopes they might look like their mom. I kept a few of the dark brown ones as well as the lighter yellow ones. There were also two browns with really bright orange on their side that I kept. All in all, I ended up keeping 14! I started out just wanting to keep a pair or two, but it didn't work out so well for me. :(

I did release mom and the remaining babies back to the wild. We stayed and watched them hide before walking off to make sure no humans or birds messed with them. I hope they do well. :)

Thank you for all of your help in the private messages, by the way! :D


I have a young snake(now almost 1 year old) with a severe case of scoliosis. I have to hand shed him. He eats on his own and holds his own with the others but need help shedding.

I'd start offering food as soon as you can. I feel that there is a window of opportunity for newborns and that if it gets passed by too many times they won't eat, ever. This is just a therory of mine. I offer newborns food their second day and everyday after that point. I even offer 2 or 3 times a day. For the first couple of months I feed them as often as they will eat. Once again, I feel they need to do as much growing as they can.
Some babies suffer from "failure to thrive". I don't think the eating switch(as I call it) was ever turned on, maybe not even delevoped. I once in awhile lose a baby to this.

Thank you for showing me that picture. It really gives me hope. It's amazing how attached you can become to the little guys, especially when they have problems.

I started offering them food last night. Some accepted, most were not interested.

Your theory isn't all wrong. It's very similar when working with hatchling Pythons, etc. You have to get a meal in them asap or they will either suffer from failure to thrive or become poor feeders.

Thank you for all of your help!