Garter Diet Question

[RoccoIsMyBuddy. :)]

The pet stores i have went to told me that pinkies weren't something that garters eat. Which everyone told me that's not true. But is it really?

[adamanteus]

It's not true. Garters will happily eat pinkies, although it is undoubtedly not good to use pinkies exclusively. Variety is best.

[RoccoIsMyBuddy. :)]

What is a good variety for them? I'm new at this whole thing. lol.
I feed them nightcrawlers and little frogs, which i also heard they could get parasites from frogs.

[bkhuff1s]

I cut up salmon from walmart and feed that to mine with a pinky every now and then

[GarterGeek]

I feed my garters nightcrawlers and pinkies. Sometimes I'll take the risk of parasites and give them a salamander or small frog. A lot of people feed their garters guppies. (goldfish aren't a good source of food)

[adamanteus]

I use salmon and trout, bought from the supermarket, as a staple. This diet is supplemenred with pinkies and earthworms (night crawlers). Both salmon and trout, although 'safe' in so far as they don't contain thiaminase, are quite fatty fish. As previously stated Goldfish are all bad and should not be used.

[GradStudentLeper]

The pet stores i have went to told me that pinkies weren't something that garters eat. Which everyone told me that's not true. But is it really?

In the wild, none but some Western Terrestrial garters do (Thamnophis elegans will sometimes eat rodents) and I would argue feeding them pinkies is a bad idea, because bluntly, everything has parasites, and pinkies may contain parasites that the snakes have not evolved to manage, while the ones they get from fish and frogs they HAVE.

Host-parasite interactions folks. The parasite, unless it is a wierd hyperspecialist (which exist, but are more rare than non-hyperspecialists) are much more able to host-jump than the host is to be able to defend against the parasite.

Additionally, I am not convinced that pinkies provide the right nutrition for a fish and frog eating snake, and at min are far too fatty for a snake to eat unless it is a natural rodent eater, especially considering the frequency at which they feed in captivity. Obese snakes are not healthy snakes.

As a result, I feed my snakes (both my Nerodia and my Thamnophis) a combination of small fish (of various species) and tadpoles/frogs. I have started a bullfrog and leopard frog breeding project (as part of my research, but I will produce WAY more tadpoles than I will ever use and what IACUC does not know cant hurt me) and that should yield me parasite free tadpoles, and soon will start the much easier project of breeding Guppies.

However I am also not convinced that thiaminase is a problem for fish eating snakes. They are not feeding on trout and salmon in the wild (Ok, T. atratus does), but rather on shad, minnows, etc. Fish that are high in thiaminase. The fish actually HAS thiamine in its system. Thiaminase is present in order to break down excess. What matters is not the amount of thiaminase, but rather the reaction rate with thiamine in the time the enzyme has to operate. A fish that is still alive, no problem. The snake's digestion will break down the enzyme like it breaks down all other proteins, leaving plenty of thiamine to be absorbed by the snake. Keeping the fish frozen is the problem, because even with the slowed down reaction rate, the enzyme is still active and has sufficient time to break down thiamine, leaving your snake with a deficiency. Granted, Goldfish are far too fatty, but live minnows (like rosy reds, or sthe stuff you catch in a trap), crappy, and other small fish... no problem.

[DrKate]

Also if you feed strips of salmon/trout/tilapia fillet, your snakes are missing out on the bones and guts which they'd normally get from whole prey, so you need to do some kind of supplementing at least with calcium powder and maybe also vitamin powder.

Frogs are a major prey source for wild garters, at least in areas where there are a lot of frogs. There are some parasites - notably lungworms, it seems - that can be carried by frogs and passed to snakes. There is a WIDE variety of opinion on feeding frogs, there are whole threads on it that you can check out.

One other option for whole prey that a lot of folks here use are frozen silversides (small fish), which you'll find at aquarium specialty stores. In my area even Petco, Pet Club, etc. sell them in their fish departments.

[adamanteus]

Valid points. But in 'the real world' how many of us can set fish traps or start a frog breeding project? It's unrealistic. We are a group of hobbyists looking for the best way to care for our charges. I think what Ashley is asking for here is good advice on a readily available source of healthy food for her pet Garter Snake.

[GradStudentLeper]

Valid points. But in 'the real world' how many of us can set fish traps or start a frog breeding project? It's unrealistic. We are a group of hobbyists looking for the best way to care for our charges. I think what Ashley is asking for here is good advice on a readily available source of healthy food for her pet Garter Snake.

Breeding guppies in huge numbers is easy, you need a starting colony of Live Bearers that you can get in any mid-range fish store, and an aquarium with a decent filtration system, oh and you need brine shrimp, also obtainable from any mid range aquatics store.

You can also get massive numbers of tadpoles and other feeder organisms in bulk from biological supply companies. I dont know how easy that is in the UK, but there are dozens of Bio Supply companies in the US that ship.

mmm tadpoles (http://www.connecticutvalleybiological.com/frogs-and-toads-c-598_657_660.html?page=4&sort=20a&zenid=92245ffb7383658c3443fb730c216748)

They are even cheaper than pinkies (particularly the xenopus)

As a matter of fact, biological supply companies can make it easier to add certain species to your personal reptile or amphibian collections. Some species because they are not popular on the pet trade cannot easily be found at expos or shops, but they are LOVED in classroom or research settings... But I digress.

Point being, the organisms I suggest as feeders are readily available, one just needs to be willing to take an extra step and know where to look, which in my estimation is no worse than scenting or otherwise trying to trick your snake into eating something it would not otherwise consume.

[adamanteus]

I thought Xenopus were toxic to snakes, causing oral dyskenesia? You mention in a previous post that most Garters wouldn't encounter trout or salmon in nature.... but Xenopus?

[DrKate]

However I am also not convinced that thiaminase is a problem for fish eating snakes. They are not feeding on trout and salmon in the wild (Ok, T. atratus does), but rather on shad, minnows, etc. Fish that are high in thiaminase.
OK, so, I don't necessarily want to get all into this again, but it seemed worth making a small point... I used to think thiaminase was a problem only with frozen/stored fish, too, for all the reasons you stated. But there are quite a lot of studies on thiamine deficiency in wild salmonids feeding on alewives in the Great Lakes. (Alewives are invasive; the native fish that were the natural prey of the salmonids have low/no thiaminase.) So it does seem that a high enough thiaminase level can actually cause a problem for some predators even when consumed live. I don't think we know where typical feeders such as goldfish, rosy reds, shiners, etc. fall with respect to how *much* thiaminase they contain, so I think it's overly simplistic to say that there's "no problem" as long as the prey is live.

I do agree that a single high-thiaminase meal is unlikely to kill any garter that is otherwise on a varied and adequate diet. My baby Puget ate seven small rosy red minnows ten days ago and is perfectly fine, but he's also eaten guppies, silversides, and pinkies both before and since. But you'll never catch me recommending that to anyone directly, because I don't want their snake's death on my head if I'm wrong.

[adamanteus]

I think the consensus is that a varied diet is the key...... Garters are after all opportunist feeders (there are numerous pics/videos on here of Garters eating all manner of road-kill!) What we need to bear in mind is what is actually readily available to the average keeper.

[GradStudentLeper]

I thought Xenopus were toxic to snakes, causing oral dyskenesia? You mention in a previous post that most Garters wouldn't encounter trout or salmon in nature.... but Xenopus?

*looks up literature..* Why yes. Yes they do. Amend. Do NOT feed Xenopus to snakes. Granted until I saw how dirt cheap lab raised Xenopus were, it never occured to me to even think of using them for the very reason that the snakes might not even recognize them as food. So, I stand corrected there. The rest of the point stands however. Even the bullfrog tadpoles that you can get in bulk are cheaper than mice, and more palatable to just about any natricine (some fish specialist nerodia need not apply)

[jitami]

Breeding guppies in huge numbers is easy...

While it's not difficult per se, it it is a royal pain in the arse! I longed for guppies... I looked everywhere for guppies... I found guppies and started a tank... I would never do it again.... so time consuming for what little you get out of them. Anyone want a tank full? Kidding, but I've thought of freezing the whole lot and being done with them many many many times!

[GradStudentLeper]

OK, so, I don't necessarily want to get all into this again, but it seemed worth making a small point... I used to think thiaminase was a problem only with frozen/stored fish, too, for all the reasons you stated. But there are quite a lot of studies on thiamine deficiency in wild salmonids feeding on alewives in the Great Lakes. (Alewives are invasive; the native fish that were the natural prey of the salmonids have low/no thiaminase.) So it does seem that a high enough thiaminase level can actually cause a problem for some predators even when consumed live. I don't think we know where typical feeders such as goldfish, rosy reds, shiners, etc. fall with respect to how *much* thiaminase they contain, so I think it's overly simplistic to say that there's "no problem" as long as the prey is live.

I do agree that a single high-thiaminase meal is unlikely to kill any garter that is otherwise on a varied and adequate diet. My baby Puget ate seven small rosy red minnows ten days ago and is perfectly fine, but he's also eaten guppies, silversides, and pinkies both before and since. But you'll never catch me recommending that to anyone directly, because I don't want their snake's death on my head if I'm wrong.

If you have references to those studies, I am interested (particularly as it relates to the mechanism of the deficiency). Bear in mind as well that different organisms have different thiamine needs. The prey fish in question (Alewives) may not contain enough of it to provide for the needs of Salmonids, irrespective of the amount of thiaminase, as that WILL be broken down by digestion and not go into the animal's system to destroy what thiamine it has in system.

I certainly agree with the varried diet. If for no other reason than because the snakes get bored. But also because of nutrition. You need a staple diet that provides for most of their nutritional and caloric needs without supplimentation, but chances are you WILL be lacking in some nutrient. So variety is your friend. If you have the capacity to feed a wide variety of food, do it. I live in a place with a LOT of native fish and amphibians that have nice stable populations, and a lab that soon will produce WAY more tadpoles than I need (one female bullfrog will lay up to 47 thousand eggs... I have 4, and only need 5 thousand eggs per experiment...), and can easily breed guppies and can buy annelids if I want to give my garters some boneless treats... others might not be able to do this, but there are ALWAYS options for that sort of variety.

[Zephyr]

If it's an eastern garter snake, it may be adapted to eating worms, fish, or frogs.
What species do you have?

[DrKate]

If you have references to those studies, I am interested (particularly as it relates to the mechanism of the deficiency).
If you've got access to Aquatic Sciences & Fisheries Abstracts through your university library, use "thiaminase" and "alewife" as search terms and set the fields to "Anywhere." There are loads of studies, I only read enough of them to convince myself the salmon had thiamine deficiency and were eating the alewives live. If you don't have access to ASFA, PM me and I'll send you a list of the search results. Since the OP asked a very practical question, I don't want to further clog the thread with academic nonsense. ;)

[adamanteus]

I don't want to further clog the thread with academic nonsense. ;)

I'm sure the original poster will appreciate that, Kate.
That said, the discussion between yourself and Benjamin on the question of thiaminase is fascinating and relevent, and obviously you have both researched the subject. Perhaps one of you might consider starting a thread devoted to this topic?:)

[DrKate]

Perhaps one of you might consider starting a thread devoted to this topic?
Haven't we already got several?

I'm not being flippant, really. I feel like I've been looking up thiaminase info and making posts about it for weeks, anyway. In particular there's the recent "I have fed my garter goldfish for 13 years" thread. Unfortunately I think the really crucial pieces of information - what exactly is the garter snake's dietary requirement for thiamine, and how thiamine-deficient (or how variable in thiamine/thiaminase content) are goldfish/rosy reds/shiners as a diet - are simply not known, which is why all we ever come up with is "avoid thiaminase-containing fish" and "feed a varied diet."

[Stefan-A]

I agree, but don't stop with the academic nonsense.

[lampy]

I feed mine a mix of pinkies and hopper mice at the mo , im going to see if i can mix it a little with some worms perhaps if i can find some clean ones

[Mommy2many]

I'm just going to throw my non-scientific two cents in. I have an inflatable 15' x 2' pool in my backyard absolutely full of american grey tree frog tadpoles in various stages of development. My three snakes have all been caught in my backyard within the last 3 months. I have tried repeatedly to feed them these tadpoles, believing as some do, that the natural prey in the environment that my snakes came from can/will/may do no more harm than what I can purchase from (who knows where that came from) the local stores. They have repeatedly and I must say consistently stuck their little snaky noses up at them and slithered away. Spoiled little snakes...:D

[DrKate]

They have repeatedly and I must say consistently stuck their little snaky noses up at them and slithered away.
Yeah, one of my boys won't hunt live fish anymore. He'll nose up to the water dish and watch his brother hunt (armchair fisherman?). But as far as meals go, if it's not already dead and dangling from tongs right in front of his face, it's just too much trouble.

That said, he's eaten everything I've ever offered on tongs, at least the first time, so I just have no experience with this epic struggle to find that one prey item they're holding out for. Obviously there are differences as to how well individual snakes adjust to a captive lifestyle... :rolleyes:

[Mommy2many]

Won't fish anymore? I gotta get me a life like that!:) It's always amazes me that they all have their own little personalities and quirks.