Brightening Color?

[GarterGeek]

I've noticed that as wild snakes are kept in captivity their colors slowly brighten. I know this change can be attributed to getting cleaner but the change seems too gradual and drastic for the cause to be just dirt. I generally, bathe my new wild-caught snakes a couple times when I get them.

Has anyone else noticed this before and is there another possible cause, besides dirt? I've considered exposure to UV rays and better nutrition...but I'm really clueless.

Thank you! :)

[guidofatherof5]

Interesting question. I can't say that I've ever noticed this event, but I've never looked for it. I will in the future.

[adamanteus]

An altogether easier life (in captivity) might explain it. I can't really comment, never having caught a wild Garter Snake...... of course I have bought wild caught from pet stores in the past, but you would expect them to be less than perfect by the time they reach the UK/European pet trade.
I will be interested to read other US members' take on this.

[drache]

for most of our members' garters it's probably true that they have a "cushier" life - safer and with a more reliable food supply
I'm not sure about the stress, because some of that has to do with disposition

[Zephyr]

I think that garters get the snake equivalent of a "tan."
My CB male changes colors between being indoors and outdoors.

[Didymus20X6]

I seem to remember a story about some scientists who were studying some species of fox. They kept a number of these brown-colored foxes in captivity for a couple of generations, when all of a sudden, for reasons I don't think they ever fully explained, they started changing colors. The third generation produced pups that were white, black, brown (a richer brown than their mothers' colors), red, and bluish-grey. What's more, the foxes began acting more like domestic dogs than foxes (well, life in captivity would most likely explain that). To my knowledge, this wasn't some selective breeding program - that's not what they were studying, I don't think. But it is strange none the less. I'll see if I can't find video of it, or a written article to post.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I will say: yes. Snakes do brighten after a while in captivity. I would guess this to be for two reasons:

1. more food = more excess molecules to spend on color pigments and scale and skin health

2. wild snakes are often "stained"... dirt and grime kind of soak into their scales and it takes more than one shed for it to completely go away. The first shed from a wild caught snake always looks really grimy compared to a CB!!!

[Didymus20X6]

Aren't skin pigments also influenced by the type of lighting? In humans, we would call that "tanning".

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

well, I have light bulbs of all kinds burning... UV bulbs, regular house bulbs... fluroescent twirly bulbs... no bulbs at all.... I don't really notice a different any which way!!! :eek:

[DrKate]

They kept a number of these brown-colored foxes in captivity for a couple of generations, when all of a sudden, for reasons I don't think they ever fully explained, they started changing colors.
I just noticed this thread, so I thought I'd throw in a comment... I remember seeing this years ago. I'm pretty sure it WAS a selective breeding experiment by fur farmers. But the thing was, they were breeding solely for personality, trying to make nice, friendly, human-loving foxes. (The idea being, I think, that if they could breed foxes that LIKE captivity, that has to be an improvement in welfare...)

But the color changes were a complete surprise. Somehow breeding solely for personality, they were influencing the color and coat pattern genes. Of course that made their nice, captivity-loving foxes totally unsuitable for use in fur coats and whatnot, which may or may not be a good thing depending on how you see it.

But that was over several generations. I think the original question related to a single snake changing color during one lifetime, which can't really be a genetic thing.

EDIT: Whaddaya know... Found a couple descriptions of the experiment. Guess it really was a study of domestication rather than geared toward more convenient fox farming (though I still suspect that's the justification Dr. Belyaev would have used in his grant application!). Completely unrelated to snakes in any way, of course, but kind of a fun read nonetheless.
Handbook of Applied Dog Behavior and ... - Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=T5ylLv5xUDQC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=fox+breeding+domestic+spotted&source=bl&ots=Ji4mlYSNk0&sig=iIPx7uKSJc6sqF5QZDK3yB8aKCY&hl=en&ei=tS5qSsTGGZHEsQPGopmXBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8)
[/URL][url]http://www.floridalupine.org/publications/PDF/trut-fox-study.pdf (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/807641/posts)

[Stefan-A]

well, I have light bulbs of all kinds burning... UV bulbs, regular house bulbs... fluroescent twirly bulbs... no bulbs at all.... I don't really notice a different any which way!!! :eek:
What we don't have is a light source that's comparable to the sun in intenisty and that would cover as many wavelengths, especially UVB and UVC.

[reptileparadise]

ditto on what Stefan says.
Our lights don't come near the wavelenght of sunlight. We try though...

My guess would also be food...

I've though about this many times, but then in relationship to offspring.
Will offspring from parents that are kept (very) warm be lighter then offspring of garters that are kept cool? (Black pigments allow more heat to be absorped which is nice for snakes in cool enviroments)

[Zephyr]

Aren't skin pigments also influenced by the type of lighting? In humans, we would call that "tanning".

I'll have to find some pics of my male when he was outdoors in the pen; his colors went from being defined and noticeable to blended/faded. Just like a tan.

[DrKate]

Will offspring from parents that are kept (very) warm be lighter then offspring of garters that are kept cool?
I don't think it would happen in a single generation. For instance... My ancestors on both sides came from (far) northern Europe several generations ago and settled in the mid-Atlantic region of the US - lower latitude, stronger sunlight. Both my parents grew up under those conditions. They should have produced melanistic offspring, since melanin protects by absorbing/diffusing UV light, right? But instead, their offspring (me!) burns after about fifteen minutes in direct sun and pretty much never develops a tan even with very careful sunning. But after thousands of generations? Well, maybe I'd look more like I belong at this latitude.

Semi-tangent: I've been to far northern Europe in the summertime, and I can spend a whole day outside without sunscreen. I don't have any more objective measurements, but it seems like there really is a substantial difference in UV with that fairly small difference in latitude. I was amazed.

[GarterGeek]

I don't think it would happen in a single generation. For instance... My ancestors on both sides came from (far) northern Europe several generations ago and settled in the mid-Atlantic region of the US - lower latitude, stronger sunlight. Both my parents grew up under those conditions. They should have produced melanistic offspring, since melanin protects by absorbing/diffusing UV light, right? But instead, their offspring (me!) burns after about fifteen minutes in direct sun and pretty much never develops a tan even with very careful sunning. But after thousands of generations? Well, maybe I'd look more like I belong at this latitude.

Semi-tangent: I've been to far northern Europe in the summertime, and I can spend a whole day outside without sunscreen. I don't have any more objective measurements, but it seems like there really is a substantial difference in UV with that fairly small difference in latitude. I was amazed.

Isn't that different though? I don't know much about this but...Wouldn't your burning vs. tanning be the result of a skin type?

The snake's change in color is (theoretically) the result of different temperatures and UV exposures. Meaning that all snakes have the ability to"tan", but some are predisposed to a certain hue because of their parent's "tan".

Your ability to change color based on UV exposure is genetic. Not all human's have the ability to tan, but they do have different shades of skin based on the geographical range of their ancestors, who developed their color after thousands of years.

Does this make sense? :o

[DrKate]

Isn't that different though?
Well... Melanin is the dark skin pigment in snakes. Melanin is the dark skin pigment in humans. The capacity to produce melanin is genetically controlled (which is why you can breed melanistic and amelanistic morphs).


Not all human's have the ability to tan, but they do have different shades of skin based on the geographical range of their ancestors, who developed their color after thousands of years.
I think I may see what the confusion is, though... There are two processes at work. There's the amount of melanin you produce by default (think Irish vs. Nubian). Your basic skin color is genetically controlled. Then there's the amount *more* melanin your skin can produce in response to UV exposure - neither the Irish nor the Nubian change a whole lot between summer and winter, but the classic olive-skinned Italian changes drastically. That capacity to tan is *also* genetically controlled.

So whether you're talking about a change in the default amount of melanin you produce or a change in your capacity to produce more or less based on demand, either way it's a genetic thing and really unlikely to change in a single generation. (Neither my default skin color - ghost white - nor my ability to tan - nil - is consistent with the latitude my parents grew up in.)

And then there are Siamese cats: We are Siamese if you Please, Alaska Science Forum (http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/836.html). So I suppose if you ever found a snake with the "himalayan" mutation then yes, it would get darker in cold temperatures! But still not in quite the same way you were suggesting for parents having (permanently) lighter or darker offspring based on their environment.

[GarterGeek]

Well... Melanin is the dark skin pigment in snakes. Melanin is the dark skin pigment in humans. The capacity to produce melanin is genetically controlled (which is why you can breed melanistic and amelanistic morphs).


I think I may see what the confusion is, though... There are two processes at work. There's the amount of melanin you produce by default (think Irish vs. Nubian). Your basic skin color is genetically controlled. Then there's the amount *more* melanin your skin can produce in response to UV exposure - neither the Irish nor the Nubian change a whole lot between summer and winter, but the classic olive-skinned Italian changes drastically. That capacity to tan is *also* genetically controlled.

So whether you're talking about a change in the default amount of melanin you produce or a change in your capacity to produce more or less based on demand, either way it's a genetic thing and really unlikely to change in a single generation. (Neither my default skin color - ghost white - nor my ability to tan - nil - is consistent with the latitude my parents grew up in.)

And then there are Siamese cats: We are Siamese if you Please, Alaska Science Forum (http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/836.html). So I suppose if you ever found a snake with the "himalayan" mutation then yes, it would get darker in cold temperatures! But still not in quite the same way you were suggesting for parents having (permanently) lighter or darker offspring based on their environment.


Wow, thank you! That taught me a lot....I'm going to have to research melanin and skin/scale pigments now though. You've spiked my curiosity. :):rolleyes:

Oh and sort of a side-tangent - Does anybody know to what extent scales act like skin, aside from keeping insides from falling out. (any information would be appreciated). :)

[DrKate]

Does anybody know to what extent scales act like skin, aside from keeping insides from falling out.
Scales *are* skin. :) Reptiles skin is pretty much the same as ours, with all the same basic layers (dermis, epidermis, etc.). The scales are essentially compacted patches of skin - kind of like a whole bunch of little callouses, really. Not much happens within the scales themselves, but the soft skin in between has glands that make oils, stuff can get absorbed into that skin, etc., just like ours.

[GarterGeek]

Scales *are* skin. :) Reptiles skin is pretty much the same as ours, with all the same basic layers (dermis, epidermis, etc.). The scales are essentially compacted patches of skin - kind of like a whole bunch of little callouses, really. Not much happens within the scales themselves, but the soft skin in between has glands that make oils, stuff can get absorbed into that skin, etc., just like ours.


So, do the scales cover the skin or are they protrusions of the skin? If a scale fell off, what be underneath it - skin or muscle tissue? Am I correct in thinking that the purpose of scales is to act as an "armor"?

When a snake is taken into captivity, it's colors brighten after a while because it becomes cleaner and is no longer "absorbing" dirt. Snakes like to bask in the sun to "absorb" UV rays, and when a snake is exposed to excess humidity it gets blisters... Is it possible that snake skin absorbs stuff more readily than human skin? Would that make sense? :o

I hope I'm not bothering you with my questions. Your answers are really helpful and I appreciate it. Thank you. :)

[DrKate]

So, do the scales cover the skin or are they protrusions of the skin? If a scale fell off, what be underneath it - skin or muscle tissue?
I tried to find something with good pictures online, because I thought that might help, but I haven't been able to. Reptile scales are direct protrusions of the skin - the epidermis, to be specific. They are NOT like hairs, which periodically fall out and re-grow. Have you ever had a little tag of dead skin next to your fingernail, and you pull on it, and everything is fine until you start to pull on the deeper living skin layer where it's attached and suddenly it hurts like all get-out? That's what a snake scale is like. The dead protruding part is connected to the living epidermis and dermis underneath, and that's what would be exposed if you removed a scale completely. It's still skin (not muscle tissue), but deeper layers of the skin that are not supposed to be exposed to the outside.


Am I correct in thinking that the purpose of scales is to act as an "armor"? Armor, a barrier against drying out, both traction *and* reduced friction for locomotion...


Is it possible that snake skin absorbs stuff more readily than human skin?Keep in mind that your skin "absorbs" dirt too (ever worked on an engine and been embarrassed to go to a nice restaurant three days later because your hands were still dirty?). It's just that you shed your dead skin cells individually all the time, instead of saving them all up and peeling a whole layer off at once, so the change is less drastic. All in all snake skin probably absorbs most stuff *less* well than human skin, because the thick keratin layer of the scale is less permeable than our wimpy thin keratin.

I should have made a point about the "absorbing UV" thing earlier, but didn't catch it. When a snake is basking, what it's trying to absorb is not UV light but infrared light - heat waves! Like... moving closer to the campfire as the night gets chilly. UV rays are just as harmful to snake skin as to our skin - it's high-energy radiation that can get into cells and mess with DNA. Mess up the wrong bit of DNA and the cell goes crazy and becomes cancerous. It's true that dark pigments absorb more heat, and I honestly don't know if dark snakes are more efficient baskers than light ones. But really we have melanin as protection against UV radiation - because of its chemical structure it can absorb the high-energy ray and kind of dissipate it in a safe way. (The darkest-skinned people are from the places with the strongest sunlight, not the coldest temperatures!)


I hope I'm not bothering you with my questions.Not at all! I like teaching biology, because people get such a kick out of learning how bodies work. Plus I figure more knowledge and less misinformation can only ever be good for the world. :)

[GarterGeek]

I should have made a point about the "absorbing UV" thing earlier, but didn't catch it. When a snake is basking, what it's trying to absorb is not UV light but infrared light - heat waves! Like... moving closer to the campfire as the night gets chilly. UV rays are just as harmful to snake skin as to our skin - it's high-energy radiation that can get into cells and mess with DNA. Mess up the wrong bit of DNA and the cell goes crazy and becomes cancerous. It's true that dark pigments absorb more heat, and I honestly don't know if dark snakes are more efficient baskers than light ones. But really we have melanin as protection against UV radiation - because of its chemical structure it can absorb the high-energy ray and kind of dissipate it in a safe way. (The darkest-skinned people are from the places with the strongest sunlight, not the coldest temperatures!)

If the snake just wants heat, why do pet-stores sell both UV light bulbs and heat bulbs? Why would we need the UV bulbs for our snakes if we could just use the plain heat bulbs or even a heating pad?

I'm probably just misunderstanding something again...:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

If the snake just wants heat, why do pet-stores sell both UV light bulbs and heat bulbs? Why would we need the UV bulbs for our snakes if we could just use the plain heat bulbs or even a heating pad?

I'm probably just misunderstanding something again...:rolleyes:
Lizards need them.

[DrKate]

If the snake just wants heat, why do pet-stores sell both UV light bulbs and heat bulbs?
Like Stefan said, it's (most? all?) lizards that require UV light. This is a whole 'nother can of worms, but it's an interesting one too. Those same high-energy rays that mess with DNA, if they happen to hit an inactive vitamin D molecule instead, provide a burst of energy to convert it into the active form. Lizards can't get enough active vitamin D in their diet, but they can make the inactive form and then sit in the sun to activate it. Pretty neat, really. Here's a good (and short) pop-science article about it: Lizards Sunbathe for Vitamin D: Discovery News (http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/05/04/lizard-sunning-vitamin.html)

Snakes get all the active vitamin D they need from their (balanced, varied, nutritionally adequate) diet, so they don't require UV light to do the conversion.

Incidentally, people get a lot of their active vitamin D by UV conversion and not directly from the diet. There is some concern among physicians that really slathering on the sunscreen every single day, as advocated by anti-cancer groups, would lead to vitamin D deficiency in humans: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/17/health/17real.html (The fact that almost nobody actually puts on enough sunscreen every single day to block all UV exposure makes the risk pretty minimal.)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

My guess would also be food...

I am not well-versed in the effects of UV lighting, though it is my understanding that most snakes don't require the UVB, just the heat from a UVA, or a heat pad and a UVA for daytime simulation (and if on a timer, seasonal change). I am not sure about strictly diurnal species, a category wherein garters are often placed (I have seen night feeding in Oregon Garters.).

My studies of the 4 species in my area do raise the question about the effects of prey items. I often rant about the possibility of hybridization or partial hybridization in my area, because of the many color/pattern variants found here. I can not however assume that all of this is a result of inheritance. Where do the blues found in T. s. tetrataenia, pickeringii, some infernalis, and occasional T. e. elegans and terrestris come from? Why are T. ordinoides and T. e. terrestris often randomnly flecked dorsally and ventrally with red, while others are not? Food for thought: We are what we eat, right?

Many toxic frogs are brightly colored because of the toxic beetles they eat! Many sirtalis and perhaps other species have been documented as developing an immunity to newt toxins; could there be a gradual color change as a result of eating newts? Aposematic? Or perhaps, colors might be associated with various "recipes" of diets. Maybe one subpopulation of fitchi specializes in newts and salamanders, while another just eats chorus frogs and ranids. Chances are, many of the garter species will diversify in their choice of prey (because ya never know when you'll eat next!), but perhaps some, if the local pond for instance is saturated with one particular prey species, may specialize and favor just the one species.

There have been a few posts about skin color in people... It goes beyond lighting! Inuits near the Arctic Circle have a whole body constitution that screams "I eat blubber!" and "I have a body type better adapted to my cold environment probably because of it!" Perhaps a tangent... Fascinating, but should we really be comparing genetics between garters and people? The mechanisms, how mutations are revealed, etc. may be totally different.

For now, I guess it is still a mystery. My baby W/C fitchi comes from an area of fitchis with yellowish-white dorsal stripes, and the only prey it has taken so far is slender salamanders and small chorus frogs. Its stripe currently has an ultra light hint of blue in it. Am I tripping? I'll keep you informed after a few more sheds. The locality from which it was caught also has NW Salamanders, ensatinas, newts, red-legs, alligator and fence lizards, and various small rodents.

Could be food, could be light, could be inherited quircks (recessive, co-dominant, or polygenic?), could be captive cleanliness... So much to learn! Do you all keep notes on this stuff? I do.

Steven

[DrKate]

Fascinating, but should we really be comparing genetics between garters and people? The mechanisms, how mutations are revealed, etc. may be totally different.
Mendel worked with peas... ;)

(Sure, there are probably big differences in gene expression between snakes and humans. I was just using a more familiar "model organism" as an example of why I doubt that parent snakes can control the color of their offspring in a single generation.)

[drache]

maybe later I'll find the article, or someone more persistent can . . .
it was about a increased brightening of red pigmentation in garters that have evolved to tolerate the toxins of some lizard or maybe newt, somewhere in the northern US - sorry forgot all the details
so there's another nutritional factor

[mtolypetsupply]

What a fabulous thread. Nice to spy on so many smart people building on the discussion!

:)

[Brewster320]

I know this doesn't quite have to do with point of this thread but I've heard that if you feed color enchancing fish food to your turtle or feed color enchancing fish food to feeder insects and then feed it to your leopard gecko they will get brighter colors. I don't know if it really works as I've never tried it myself but I wonder if you feed it to what ever you feed your garter snake(fish, tadpoles, mice, worms) if your garter will gain more color.

[guidofatherof5]

I know this doesn't quite have to do with point of this thread but I've heard that if you feed color enchancing fish food to your turtle or feed color enchancing fish food to feeder insects and then feed it to your leopard gecko they will get brighter colors. I don't know if it really works as I've never tried it myself but I wonder if you feed it to what ever you feed your garter snake(fish, tadpoles, mice, worms) if your garter will gain more color.

Why add color?
I'm only speaking of my radixes but I've already got such a variety of natural color and I think natural is the key word. One of the great things about garters are the great variety of colors that occur without enhancements. I'm not sure I would want the added chemicals(as benign as they appear) in my snakes. Not having that is one less worry.
I understand your question and by no means am I making light of it. I just don't see the purpose if it has to be added to obtain.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

maybe later I'll find the article, or someone more persistent can . . .
it was about a increased brightening of red pigmentation in garters that have evolved to tolerate the toxins of some lizard or maybe newt, somewhere in the northern US - sorry forgot all the details
so there's another nutritional factor

I would be very interested in that article

[Brewster320]

Why add color?
I'm only speaking of my radixes but I've already got such a variety of natural color and I think natural is the key word. One of the great things about garters are the great variety of colors that occur without enhancements. I'm not sure I would want the added chemicals(as benign as they appear) in my snakes. Not having that is one less worry.
I understand your question and by no means am I making light of it. I just don't see the purpose if it has to be added to obtain.

Again I've never tried it myself but not all color enhancing fish food uses chemicals. Some are just a certain element or nutrient in them that brings out the best of there colors. Atleast What I've read. If its add color no I don't like it but if it just helps bring out color then I don't think it's to bad.