expensive b-day

[Quibble]

Yay! My birthday present has arrived! A little early... but I'm not complaining. 1.1 puget sound garters, 1 male oregon red spotted, and 1 male orange stripe radix.

However I think the pugets lables got mixed up, im not sure. What better place to ask for help than on the forums? :D

-drumroll please!-

Puget #1! (this one has a strange lump on its back... concerned about whether I should be worried or not...)

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[snakeman]

It's probally a parasite.

[DrKate]

Maybe the person you bought from would pay (or at least split) the cost of you taking it to a vet for diagnosis and treatment? Especially since you've now got a time-stamped photo showing it arrived in that condition. Sure, if it's a parasite you could try to dig it out yourself, but that's going to be pretty stressful for the snake and there's always a chance you could hurt him (and always the chance it's not a parasite). I'm sure a reputable breeder would want a chance to make things right, and avoid a reputation for selling diseased animals...

[adamanteus]

That lump could be a spinal kink, by the look of it.

[Quibble]

I'll let the breeder know as soon as I know what gender it is, anyone need more pics to help me figure it out?

[TheArtist]

Check with the breeder to see if he has any guarantee that the animal will arrive alive and in good health, because you have a dated photo of how i arrived and can ask the breeder to pay for the vet bill. I know that when I buy fish, if they arrive dead or in bad condition, the breeder will pay for the medicine in order to not get a bad reputation. (not exactly the same thing, but the breeding policy is pretty common across all pet species). Anyways, she's very beautiful, awesome b-day present, hopefully everything turns out ok with her back.

edit: for what it may be, have you observed how she moves (i call her a she but I honestly have no idea). If it's a spinal kink i would think it would be obvious from how she moves, but i'm not sure. are there any other symptoms being shown? Like does she strike if you touch the spot or seem in pain at all? I assume a garter would try to flee or strike if it was in pain, sorry if i'm incorrect.

[adamanteus]

I'm tempted to commit.... but I won't!:rolleyes:
Comparison pictures between the two might be useful, Beth.

[Quibble]

Yep im working on geting them together... and eating dinner... lol

The lump doesnt seem to restrict any movement, and at this time I cant really tell if touching it causes pain. They're all kinda spooked from the movement so I'll give them time to settle in before I make that call.

[Quibble]

Here is puget #2
I suspect it to be male, it was marked female.
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[adamanteus]

Yes, this is a male.

[Quibble]

Yes, this is a male.

Thanks! so im hoping lumpy #1 is female :confused:

[adamanteus]

Thanks! so im hoping lumpy #1 is female :confused:

My suspicion was/is that lumpy is a girl... still not ready to commit though!:D

[Quibble]

Well ive gotten everybody but lumpy to eat something, 'shes' trying but a little shy, lol. 'Shes' got a name already, thats effecient! :D

[Quibble]

Everyone has eaten now, The suns been gone for a while now, Ill get pictures up of the other two guys tomorrow.

If anyone has suggestions about Lumpy's gender, speak up! I paid enough for these critters, I'd like to feel secure about what I recieved.

Thanks everyone for the help so far!

[TwistidMutations]

That really looks like a spinal kink i had got a 2.4 group from a "breeder" a few years ago and one of the females looked like that one it had a bad kink.

[Quibble]

Could the lump be a bruise from shipping? Thats what the breeder had to suggest. She also said to keep her updated about it, and I definatey will. I'm pretty sure Lumpys a female though, anyone else agree?

I didnt get around to taking pics of the concinnus and the radix today, Ill try to get them afte work tomorrow :D

[bkhuff1s]

Has anyone gone both male yet?

[Quibble]

Has anyone gone both male yet?
Shanely said she thinks they're both male on Thamfriends.

[drache]

I could swing either way with Lumpy
shipping injury? how where the snakes packed? bagged or in containers, and what material was included inside their bag/container?

[TheArtist]

I see two males :/ I'm not 100% sure but I'm fairly sure. Have you talked to the breeder yet? I mean (s)he did send you a possibly injured potential male when you spent your money on a breeding female in good condition, no? That's kinda how I see it.

[Quibble]

Heres the other two.
Ralph, the concinnus,
And Quentin, the radix. :D
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[Quibble]

I could swing either way with Lumpy
shipping injury? how where the snakes packed? bagged or in containers, and what material was included inside their bag/container?

All four were shipped in seperate deli cups, the cups were stacked up inside one cloth sleve and tied at the end. They had peat moss inside their containers.

The radix's cup was a bit smushed, but it wasnt opened. and he is fine.

[drache]

that sounds perfectly fine packaging which leads me to believe that it's not a shipping injury

[Quibble]

I see two males :/ I'm not 100% sure but I'm fairly sure. Have you talked to the breeder yet? I mean (s)he did send you a possibly injured potential male when you spent your money on a breeding female in good condition, no? That's kinda how I see it.


Yes, I completely agree with you. Even if Lumpy is a female, I couldnt put her through the stress of breeding with this injury/parasite/spinal kink.

Lumpy alone was $75, for that price I deserve a Healthy female.

Stressfull days :mad:

[Quibble]

that sounds perfectly fine packaging which leads me to believe that it's not a shipping injury

Thats what I thought! If anything, the radix would be the injured one, but hes not....

Maybe I can get the breeder to trade it with me for a healthy female(that I originally paid for). If not, I do have access to the BOI on fauna classifieds.....

[TheArtist]

defiantly ask her to replace the injured animal. You bought a healthy female, so you should get a healthy female. If she's a good breeder she will replace it, if not just to save his reputation.

[snakeman]

The puget is probally wild caught.
You get what you pay for.

[Quibble]

Amy wants me to send them all back to her because I asked for help about Lumpy. Does that seem fair at all?
If anyone wants to see the whole e-mail convo pm me.

[TheArtist]

You shouldn't have to send them all back? If she's suddenly asking you return them all to her she's probably getting defensive about the situation which can raise red flags... I don't see why any good respectable breeder would want them all returned to her when theres only one who's health is being questioned. I wouldn't do it personally... this seems like the kind of thing that happens before suddenly you have no snakes and are out a lot of money and can't get the breeder to send the stock to you.

[adamanteus]

Perhaps she has her reasons... maybe, if she suspects it may be a parasite, she considers it best that they are all returned. Let's not start flaming anyone when we don't know the story. For all we know this is a genuine breeder, with scruples. Or quite the opposite, we really don't know. At this stage I think it is a matter to be sorted out between Beth and Amy. Let's not jump the gun.

[Quibble]

All I asked was for help with an injured animal I recieved, and shes throwing a fit saying shes offended by my questioning the sex, origin, species and if they are parasitized.
It shouldnt hurt anyone to ask questions, and I never doubted the origin nor the species.
But Im not confident I can trust her to give me a full refund, I said nothing that would spark the frusteration she has with me.

I feel like I stepped on a land mine while chasing a butterfly!
Im sure you husbands out there know how I feel!

[TheArtist]

Out of curiosity, are you able to take Lumpy to see a vet? If a vet can tell you what's wrong with her and then proceed in helping you, you can ask the breeder to cover the vet fee of the snake, like a good breeder should... But at least that way you can find out just what it is and maybe be able to treat the snake for it? A breeder shouldn't get upset over simple questioning. But assuming she is a good breeder I still don't see any reason to get upset with a customer... Have you provided her with the images you took of lumpy's lump as proof? I could see a breeder maybe being upset if they thought you were trying to scam them, but if you provided the images of the snake then that should be accepted.

[Quibble]

Yes she has seen a picture already. She doesnt want me to take it to a vet as she doesnt believe I'll find a vet with enough experience to treat it properly. She wants Lumpy back and the others, and she will take care of any problems she thinks there may be.

Ill take lumpy to a vet with my own money if she doesnt start eating regularly, or if any more problems seem to arise with her.

[TheArtist]

Thats would probably be best. In the end it does come down to what you want to do with her! Keep updating us on Lumpy :)

[DrKate]

She doesnt want me to take it to a vet as she doesnt believe I'll find a vet with enough experience to treat it properly.
How close are you to the Mich State vet school? She couldn't really argue about lack of experience there. If you're not close, you could still call them - they probably keep a referral list of herp vets all over the state. Maybe she'd be satisfied with a herp vet that was recommended by the vet school?

[Quibble]

That, is an excellent suggestion! O_O I'll look for their number and try to call them monday. Maybe I can get some vet help/opinions without having to make an office visit just yet.

[Quibble]

A thread has been started @ fauna classifieds. An interesting debate indeed.

[TheArtist]

interesting conversation. Personally I see a bit of a over reaction on the breeders part in those emails and I see a customer apologizing for something they had every right to ask.

Assuming she's a good breeder, i'd say she's worried for the snakes. She said she's seen vets overdose and kill snakes, that could lead into a fear that you may take the snakes to a vet who would give them the wrong diagnose or over-dose them, evidently killing them. Therefore she could be worried that they will be killed. it sounds like they were good snakes that she liked a lot

Assuming she isn't such a great breeder it sounds like she is very angry that you 'apparently' questioned the origin, species, gender, etc and now she wants them all back ut of her frustration towards you, the paying and concerned customer. She also throws the fact that she's been in the business for a long time at you as if to say, well my reputation disproves that I would package a injured animal.

I believe that she didn't package the animal while it was injured or that it wasn't obvious at the time and maybe before more evident during shipping.
From the point of the breeder, if she saw you're post about using F-classifieds, she could interpret that as a threat, so i understand that part. If she saw that post she probably saw others, someone on here did saw something about wild caught, if she saw that she might think you're questioning origin.

Again personally, I've seen stuff like this happen before and I would not buy from her again nor would I send the animals back.

[Quibble]

Entirely agreed my friend. -nods-

[TheArtist]

So are you planning to breed her? I don't know a while lot about the genetics of snakes, but since the breeder didn't notice it, I think the spinal kink (if thats what it is) came after some time instead of being from birth so It may not be passed on to her young.

[Quibble]

I have thought about it. I think I will breed her, but I will definately keep an eye out for what turns up in the offspring. If a lot of them are kinked after the first breeding, I probably wont breed her again.
You would think that if she were born with it, then the breeder would have noticed by now. So I am pretty sure its an injury or a scar from a past injury, or possibly maybe a parasite. And seeing as how this was one of her breeding pairs, they were selected for quality. Only time will tell.

[Quibble]

I got $40 back and I get to keep all four snakes.
See? Amy's not so bad.

[TheArtist]

Well thats good that she's paid you back some money for the injured snake. I suppose we can assume Amy was the good breeder with a little bit of bite to her bark. I am glad to here it.
Any ideas on names for 'lumpy' or is that her name? X)