Mouse Question

[OregonHerpaholic]

What is the long term effect of feeding gartersnakes a all mouse diet??

Rodents are not a natural part of most garter diets, so how do a high fat, high protein lifestyle effect their overall health?? I have seen other herps(large frogs and monitors mostly) that have been given a mouse diet..with very negative results...fatty liver disease, bone problems, etc.

Has there been any studies as to the long-term effect on this "captive" diet?

Do Tell

Billie

[adamanteus]

Hi Billie,

The jury is still out on that one! It seems that in this forum there are two schools of thought about the use (or over-use) of rodents. If you look for the thread "Rodent Diet" in the husbandry forum, you could see what people on here think about it. I don't know of any long term studies myself, but other, better read members might have more info on that.

[snakeman]

you definitely don't want to overfeed them on a rodent diet.I give my adult males one pink a week.my females one mouse a week.They always want more.Even with one a week they are still fatter than their wild caught cousins.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Scott Felzer has his on rodent diets. He has very healthy snakes!!!

[mikm]

good topic Billie ... I do not know of any 'studies' with factual data. For myself I think I am going to try and mix it up a little now that Roy (Garter Guy) mentioned that his garters enjoyed a 'can of slugs' available at pet stores. Personally I like feeding 'things' (people, reptiles, insects, etc.) ... lol

enjoy your day !!
marian

[GarterGuy]

I think when it comes to garters, as long as they're not overfed (as snakemanhad said) rodents can make up a large percentage of if not all of their diet. They're not the first non-rodent eating snakes to be raised on all rodent diets. Many of the kingsnakes and milksnakes (Lampropeltis sp.) that are kept and bred now are actually other reptile eaters (lizards and other snakes) and western hognoses (Heterondon nasicus) that feed primarily on frogs, toads and lizards have been raised over many generations on rodent diets. For me, it's a primary rodent diet, just because of ease and the assurance that the food item is healthy and free of parasites.....but I also like to offer them variety, mixing in home raised earthworms, fish (whether whole or fillets) and now I can add canned snails to that. I think what it comes down to is that many snakes can be considered generalist who specialize. What I mean by that is that they can and will eat just about anything, but due to the environment they live in and the other species with which they are competing with, they specialize in certain prey items. In captivity, they don't need to do this and can be given prey they normally wouldn't eat in the wild. Just my little swing on the whole thing.
Roy

[Thamnophis]

I only give one rodent per snake once a week in combination with smelt and chickenheart.

[OregonHerpaholic]

Thanks all.. I will be haunting the threads.. I do like to vary the diet, but since my large female has decided she will eat adult mice I give her, I would like to keep it as simple as possible..with the worms and extras as a treat.. BUT I just adopted 2 cb babies, and will be working on thier diet..But prefer not to chop up pinkies..:eek:


I only give one rodent per snake once a week in combination with smelt and chickenheart.


Is that what you are feeding?? I have seen your website(love it).. and could not for the life of me figure out what you were giving the garters.. What is the white stuff in the middle?? Some kind of calicum or just "filling"??


his garters enjoyed a 'can of slugs'

I tried this stuff on my big red(oregon red-sided) and she wanted nothing to do with it.. HOW can I get my new babies to LIKE THE IDEA????????

BILLIE

[abcat1993]

I feed about 66.6% worms and 33.3% mice. Nothing else. But he/she isn't very old (probably not even a year) so I don't have a clue on the long term effects. It seems to be doing good though, other than when he/she stopped eating.

[Thamnophis]

I guess you mean this picture...

http://www.kousebandslangen.nl/eetfoto3.jpg

That is a piece of chickenheart with some vitamine/mineral/calciumpowder on it.

[OregonHerpaholic]

Yeah, that's the photo.. i got a online translator to help with the chicken but not what the white stuff was... thanks.. Do you feed raw or cooked chicken?? and is it hearts or liver or just breast meat??

[Thamnophis]

It is chicken heart. Is sold as catfood. And I feed it raw.

[abcat1993]

Cat food? Over here all we have is canned tuna and other crap. Occasionally on Thanksgiving (an American Holiday) we'll give the dogs some insides from the turkey.

[Thamnophis]

Canned catfood is also the main food for those animals.
But some people like to give chickenhearts. Sometimes also available is chickenstomach and chickenliver. The stomach is also easily eaten by the garters. The liver is not that popular.

[abcat1993]

Huh, I'll look for it next time I go to the grocery store.

[adamanteus]

I think heart is the best, as it keeps some shape when cut into small strips. Liver is inclined to disintergrate.

[Stefan-A]

Just as a random comment, I tried giving my female strips of beef yesterday. Took it unscented after about 5 seconds of hesitation.

[adamanteus]

Do you mean beef flesh or beef heart, Stefan?

[Stefan-A]

Flesh. I'm not going to start using it as a part of their diet, but it's good to know that at least one of them will eat it.

[adamanteus]

It shows that people are right about Garters being opportunist!

[Stefan-A]

They absolutely are. :) So, what would be the next step? Cat food or chicken? ;)

Seriously, I can't understand why people over here say that garters are "difficult" compared to the North American rat snakes (Pantherophis). They seem to eat pretty much anything, even in captivity.

[Cazador]

Congratulations Stefan! One more bit of variety to add to their diet ;). As you know, beef is very fatty, so you're wise to exercise restraint. Yet, fat is also a good energy source for times when it's necessary or desired, like pre- and post-brumation and during gestation. Cheers to your success,

Rick

[RedSided]

My red sided garter eats almost anything, I feed her once a week on fuzzies (slighty bigger mice than pinkys) and occasionally give her worms and and slugs between her main feeds, she is in great shape so far being about 6-7 years old now her diet has not let me down.

I don't like to go overboard on slugs as I find they tend to slime up her mouth and face.

I also slip in rabbit kidneys and hearts when I manage to shoot one, but thats mainly in the spring and summer.:rolleyes:

[Thamnophis]

Stefan-A wrote: Seriously, I can't understand why people over here say that garters are "difficult" compared to the North American rat snakes (Pantherophis). They seem to eat pretty much anything, even in captivity.


Stefan, to some point I agree with you.
Most garter snakes eat almost everything. That is indeed easy.
But...

When you feed Pantherophis species well fed mice (or rats), they do well and get everything they need.
The "problem" with garter snakes is to balance their food and add sufficient amoents of calcium, vitamins, minerals, etc.
That is not that easy. Especially for a beginner.

Thus... I find Pantherophis species much easier than Thamnophis if you want to give them a balanced diet.

[crayguns]

For whatever it's worth dept. If your garter or other snake is big enough, one can often buy "culls" at a chicken hatchery rather cheaply. Culls are chicks that hatch out with something wrong. These are usually destroyed or sold to people with hungry critters. I use to freeze them. My snake didn't care if they were thawed out or alive. I would wriggle it in front of Desmond, his attention would awaken and he'd eat the others I put in his cage.

[Stefan-A]

Definitely too big for my snakes, but perhaps not in a couple of years.

[Thamnophis]

Newborn chicks are too big for my snakes to, but you can use a pair of scissors to cut it to pieces. And than feed it.
But you will have to add every now and then some vitamin/minerall powder. Because they are not suited as mainfood.
When you feed them beside fish and mice... perfect!

[Stefan-A]

Hatchling quails might be the right size for a large garter snake?

[Thamnophis]

Quails (and other small birds) are the right size, I agree.
And it would not surprise me if these groundnesting birds are every now and then on the menu in the wild to.

[Stefan-A]

I was just thinking about quails, since they are a commonly farmed type of bird, which would make them easier to find. Very expensive, though, if I remember correctly, but maybe you could get your hands on a few culled ones.