I have fed my Garter/Ribbon Goldfish for 13 years. Is Thiaminase a problem?

[Jimyd]

Just as the title says. This is a wild caught snake found near my location. It is Black with White/Yellow stripes on the side with a Greyish/Green? belly.

My question is should I be worried about a Thiamine deficiency at this point?

I have tried feeding hairless pinky mice (smallest size possible) to him/her once (about 5 years ago), but he/she didn't want to take it.

Also the snake is about 2_1/2 feet long, maybe a bit longer.

Also if I were to suplement the snake with vitamins, what product do you recommend that can be located in Sacramento, CA.

The only stores near where I am are PETCO and PetSmart. I tried asking their snake expert there, but she said she has never heard of Thiaminase deficiency and says Goldfish are perfectly fine.

So yeah, I'm kind of confused to who to believe at this point. =|

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Jimyd :)
Got a pic :confused:

[Didymus20X6]

If I understand correctly, thiaminase is a chemical that destroys thiamine, a necessary nutrient. It is in fact very highly present in goldfish, and with any diet that is not already rich in thiamine, it can be extremely unhealthy - even deadly - to consume.

Thiaminase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiaminase)

I'm not a snake expert by any stretch of the imagination (in fact, I only came here to learn about Thamnophis because I had a bunch of them in my yard), but it sounds to me like this pet store "expert" really isn't much of one.

[Millinex]

I'm not a snake expert by any stretch of the imagination (in fact, I only came here to learn about Thamnophis because I had a bunch of them in my yard), but it sounds to me like this pet store "expert" really isn't much of one.

Bingo, I can't even count the amount of times I've had to correct pet store employees. I've had to do everything from educating them on reptiles to telling them how to treat their sick fish. Most chain stores are generally stupid when it comes to animal husbandry short of cats/dogs.

[DrKate]

My question is should I be worried about a Thiamine deficiency at this point?
People tend to have very strong opinions on thiaminase, and I don't doubt the personal stories of horrible things happening, so I don't care to step on any toes. But here are some facts that I'm pretty sure of...

1) Thiaminase is *primarily* a problem in (some species of) fish that have been frozen and stored for some time. I'm by no means suggesting there's no risk with live fish, but it's definitely less than with frozen/stored fish. This is a common problem with captive keeping of all kinds of fish-eaters, including birds and marine mammals.
2) Thiaminase levels in the same species of fish can vary *very* widely depending on their diet and environment. This finding was in a study of wild fish, but it seems reasonable that it would translate to pond-reared feeder goldfish too.
3) Perhaps most importantly, you've been feeding goldfish from your local stores for 13 years, and presumably your snakes don't regularly die of the characteristic symptoms of thiamine deficiency. So whatever their combination of diet and environment, this particular supply of fish is probably not lethally high in thiaminase, right?

Yeah, it would probably be better if you start trying to get your snakes onto different prey - if only because you're not going to know if Petco happens to change suppliers or something, until you start to notice problems. I've heard (and experienced) that cutting pinkies in half, or at least splitting them open to expose the guts, may help tempt the snakes. And you can also try strips of "safe" fish like trout or silversides (possibly available at Petco) to get them started on pre-killed prey. If they just won't give up live fish, I do know that you can get feeder guppies from some aquarium stores in the SF Bay Area if you ever get down this way (I haven't made any calls further east than Pinole, so I don't know about Sacramento itself).

Good luck!

[prattypus]

Yeah... The experts at the big box pet stores tend to be teenagers on summer jobs with little or no pet experience beyond the electronic Tamagochi. I am not one by any stretch either, but I don't dole out the info.

[drache]

welcome to the forum
thiaminase can be a problem - or not, apparently
my personal policy has been to avoid it as I usually have access to safer foods

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

whether or not it's causing harm to your snake is unknown- 13 years is a long time. How big is your garter snake? at 13 years, he/she must be rather big! I noticed when I used to feed goldfish that my garters did not ever grow as fast, or as large as the ones I keep now.

But as always, since I am well aware of the thiaminase issue, have witnessed it's killings first hand, and have had people come rushing into my store with a seizuring, prematurely dieing young snake, I will steer far, far away from any fish known to contain thiaminase. I am fully convinced that NONE of the garter snakes I owned a few years ago are still alive because they were fed goldfish. They all showed the "symptoms" before they passed. Odd body movements, shudders, seizures even...It's just not worth the trouble. I also don't like how if I look hard enough I can find flatworms embedded in the skin and flesh of the feeders at my store. They stick out like little pimples and when cut out they can be up to 1/2 inch long. Does anyone know if these are transmissible to snakes, like, if they are burrowed in the fish in hopes of being eaten, or are they already at the end of their life cycle when they are burrowed in a fish as a cyst? They freak me the heck out.

I switched to frozen thawed silversides as the primary fish source for my snakes, along with cuts of trout and salmon, and have not looked back. My question about the frozen thawed aspect of thiaminase is - if my silversides didn't have it in them when they were alive, surely I don't see it spontaneously appearing when they are frozen and stored, since it's already documented of being present in many fish species that are alive and well? I can see how maybe freezing might make it more potent if it was already present in that particular species though.

[snakeman]

I would'nt be surprised if a lot of the seizures are coming from additives that the employees are putting in the water to help the fish survive longer.I remember back in the day , Robert Rice had almost his whole collection wiped out from some bait store minnows he bought.They put some additive that contained some copper compound or something.It killed them fast too.I wish I knew how to get in contact to find out what it was exactly.I don't think he keeps garters anymore.

[guidofatherof5]

Shannon,

I don't think thiaminase will appear in fish if it's not there to begin with. It's not the freezing process that creates it.

I miss feeding my radixes live fish but the enjoyment of watching they hunt isn't worth their death.

While I was out Herping yesterday I came across a field mouse. I was able to catch it and kill it. The whole time I thought my Speckle or JW (my two biggest girl) would love to have a full grown mouse. On the way home I knew I was going to freeze it for a couple of months just to make sure parasites weren't an issue. At one point it hit me, I had no idea what this rodent had be eating or what other problems could occur with feeding it to my snakes. Out the window it went. Better safe than sorry. I have a very difficult time losing any of mine. I don't want it to happen because of something I did or didn't do. Safe foods all the way here at the T.r adix Ranch

[Stefan-A]

While I was out Herping yesterday I came across a field mouse. I was able to catch it and kill it. The whole time I thought my Speckle or JW (my two biggest girl) would love to have a full grown mouse. On the way home I knew I was going to freeze it for a couple of months just to make sure parasites weren't an issue. At one point it hit me, I had no idea what this rodent had be eating or what other problems could occur with feeding it to my snakes. Out the window it went. Better safe than sorry. I have a very difficult time losing any of mine. I don't want it to happen because of something I did or didn't do. Safe foods all the way here at the T.r adix Ranch
Yeah, that's a major reason why I don't want to use wild rodents. They will chew and swallow just about anything.

[DrKate]

They put some additive that contained some copper compound or something.
I'm pretty sure what you're talking about is copper sulfate. It's a *very* common anti-protozoal (e.g. kills "Ich") treatment for fish, available over the counter and commonly used in overcrowded/stressed situations to prevent disease in the fish. I have no personal knowledge of its effects on snakes, but I'm sure that's the compound you're thinking of.

AND...


My question about the frozen thawed aspect of thiaminase is - if my silversides didn't have it in them when they were alive, surely I don't see it spontaneously appearing when they are frozen and stored
You are exactly right. I'm sorry I wasn't clearer about that. Different species (and populations) of fish naturally contain different levels of thiaminase. Some fish contain enough to be a problem even when very fresh (e.g. live). When *any* fish is dead and stored for some time, whatever thiaminase is present has time to break down the thiamine in the tissue of that fish. (Poor storage, e.g. too high a temperature, is also an exacerbating factor.) The stored fish become deficient in thiamine and lead to nutritional deficiency in the predator.

So it's not that thiaminase spontaneously appears, or even becomes more potent, in stored fish. It just has more time to do its job. And the more thiaminase that's there to start with, the more thiamine will be broken down during storage. The fish we talk about as "safe" are the ones that have extremely low levels of (or maybe no?) thiaminase, so not much (or no) thiamine is lost during storage. There are other fish (like herring for marine mammals) that have low enough levels to be safe when fed fresh/live, but cause problems if stored a long time. And then there are those species - like goldfish apparently, given the range of personal experiences here - that just vary so widely we can't really trust them.

If we knew exactly what it was about diet/environment that caused a particular population to have high or low levels of thiaminase, then presumably we could just raise low-thiaminase feeder goldfish. But without doing biochemical testing on each batch :rolleyes: I don't know that there's currently a way to be sure that any particular batch happens to be safe.

Whew! Sorry for the long-winded reply. There just seemed to be some lingering confusion that I thought I could help clear up...

[MasSalvaje]

Excellent topic and discussion, thanks to all that are involved.

One question, I know I have seen a link posted on this site for a list of "safe" fish, does anyone have that link? Is it complete/the best one to use?

-Thomas

[ssssnakeluvr]

here's the link....

Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes, Second Revised Edition, 1982 (http://books.nap.edu/books/030903325X/html/64.html#page_top)
Nutrient Requirements of Mink and Foxes, Second Revised Edition, 1982 (http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1114&page=65)

how are the babies doing?? the female I got is getting huge!!!!

[bkhuff1s]

I would scent the pinky w/ the fish

Step 1. Drain all but a tiny bit of water from the fish bag
Step 2. Place the thawed pinking into the corner of the bag (remaining water and all the fish should be there
Step 3. Swish around (I usually do it about ten times)
Step 4. Dump all of the contents into the snake enclosure or feeding tub
Step 5. Watch as the snakes goes into "OH MY GOD FISH" mode

[Millinex]

I would scent the pinky w/ the fish

Step 1. Drain all but a tiny bit of water from the fish bag
Step 2. Place the thawed pinking into the corner of the bag (remaining water and all the fish should be there
Step 3. Swish around (I usually do it about ten times)
Step 4. Dump all of the contents into the snake enclosure or feeding tub
Step 5. Watch as the snakes goes into "OH MY GOD FISH" mode

I've also found taking a single fish and using it to rub down the mouse excessively works very well, incase you didn't want to buy a bag of fish ;)

[bkhuff1s]

That's true I used guppies, so a bag of goldfish would probably be excessive. A bag of guppies, being 10, was only a dollar.

[Millinex]

In my stores minnows (guppies some call them) are the same price as goldfish, goldfish are such garbage feeders though ;*O

[jitami]

Welcome :)

I'm also in Sacramento and also have two wild caught adult garters just like yours. They're Thamnophis elegans elegans. In my experience, and everything I've read, they're pretty easy to switch to rodents. Just scent it heavily with fish the first couple of times or put it in the bowl with one or two live fish. When I switched my male I scented the pinky mouse with a frozen minnow the first couple of times and now he prefers mice to anything else. The female that showed up in my driveway last summer was even easier. I 'brained' a frozen thawed pinky(stuck the knife through it's skull until some fluid ran out) and she took to the pinkies right away. They both like the occasional live fish, but really prefer frozen thawed mice over frozen thawed fish fillets(tilapia/trout/salmon) and neither likes worms. What you're doing obviously works for your snake, but I'd try to move away from the goldfish if you can.

I'd love to see/hear more about your snake, too :) I have pics of my guys here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/4091-tamis-kids.html

[DrKate]

In my stores minnows (guppies some call them) ...
Sorry, my inner biologist is refusing to let me just let this go... Guppies and minnows are really completely different things. Minnows and goldfish are both in the Cyprinid family (along with carp and barbs). Some minnow species can have high levels of thiaminase just like goldfish ("rosy red minnows" are often mentioned on this forum as an example). Some minnows may be safe to feed, I'm not sure, you'd have to check that list linked to a few posts back.

Guppies on the other hand are in the Poecilid family and do not have high levels of (or perhaps any) thiaminase. In most pet stores you're more likely to find fancy guppies, meant to be kept as pets (and selling for $2 each). But some stores sell plain guppies (usually less than an inch long) as feeder fish. I've found that at least in my area, a tank of "feeder guppies" often actually contains a mix of guppies and a related species, the Endler's livebearer. Doesn't matter from the snakes' point of view, both are safe to feed - and equally yummy, judging by my boys' reaction to them. :eek:

Anyway, I'm sorry Millinex, I don't mean to be rude in the least, but since the distinction is actually important when it comes to feeding snakes, I thought it was worth correcting the mistake.

[Millinex]

Sorry, my inner biologist is refusing to let me just let this go... Guppies and minnows are really completely different things. Minnows and goldfish are both in the Cyprinid family (along with carp and barbs). Some minnow species can have high levels of thiaminase just like goldfish ("rosy red minnows" are often mentioned on this forum as an example). Some minnows may be safe to feed, I'm not sure, you'd have to check that list linked to a few posts back.

Guppies on the other hand are in the Poecilid family and do not have high levels of (or perhaps any) thiaminase. In most pet stores you're more likely to find fancy guppies, meant to be kept as pets (and selling for $2 each). But some stores sell plain guppies (usually less than an inch long) as feeder fish. I've found that at least in my area, a tank of "feeder guppies" often actually contains a mix of guppies and a related species, the Endler's livebearer. Doesn't matter from the snakes' point of view, both are safe to feed - and equally yummy, judging by my boys' reaction to them. :eek:

Anyway, I'm sorry Millinex, I don't mean to be rude in the least, but since the distinction is actually important when it comes to feeding snakes, I thought it was worth correcting the mistake.

It's not a problem I'm just speaking from experience from a lot of people I see come in the stores. I know full well the differences between the 2, however there are a huge populous who frankly, has no idea the difference. My father called the minnows guppies for years until I got around to correcting him.

[DrKate]

It's not a problem I'm just speaking from experience from a lot of people I see come in the stores.
Oh, right on... I read your original post as you saying they were the same thing, but people used two different names. Sorry! Well anyway, the clarification is there in case anyone who *is* one of those confused people comes along and happens to read it. :)

[KITKAT]

http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Thiamin,

YouTube - Thiamin deficiency (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFGpH2cZ8uU)

[tspuckler]

You might want to get a positive ID on what type of garter you have. I don't think there are any ribbon snakes native to California. The website California Reptiles and Amphibians (http://www.californiaherps.com/) may help you determine what you have (it has range maps and photos).

I've had a very easy time converting fish-eating snakes to rodents using the methods others have descibed in this post.

Though I've often wondered about wild snake species that are primarily fish-eaters. I know that they have access to frogs, toads and other prey items - but it seems to me there are some types of wild snakes that mostly (and perhaps exclusively) eat fish, and this would imply their wild diet is not nutritionally deficient.

This is a great topic of discussion and I think it shows that there are still unanswered questions about both wild and captive snakes.

Santa Cruz Garter that I found in April:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii204/tspuckler/cruz2.jpg

[jitami]

You might want to get a positive ID on what type of garter you have. I don't think there are any ribbon snakes native to California.

Tim, did I miss something? He described his snake as "It is Black with White/Yellow stripes on the side with a Greyish/Green? belly." He also said it was caught in/near Sacramento. I'm certainly not an expert, but given location and description it points to T.e.elegans. Note your atratus doesn't have side stripes. His could possibly be fitchi, but he'd likely be seeing (and describing?) some red. Of course, I'd love to see a picture. Hope the original poster checks back in with us.

[tspuckler]

I was encouraging him to get a positive ID on the snake he has. There are more than one type of garter (and no ribbon) snake that live in the Sacramento area.

I was not implying that he has a Santa Cruz Garter - their range is south of Sacramento. I was just showing off a garter I caught earlier this year.

Tim

[jitami]

I'm sorry, Tim. I didn't even notice the 'Garter/Ribbon' in the title. I kept wondering why you were referring to ribbons... sorry... yes, I am blonde in case you're wondering. You're right, though, no ribbons in CA and I'm assuming he has the same kind of garter as I do, which is why I pointed him towards my pictures. Figured if he doesn't have pics he could at least compare them to my e. elegans. The CA herps page is awesome as well.

[tspuckler]

No big deal Tami,

I misread (or seem to not see) elements in posts more than I'd like. I checked out your photos - Sly and Ella are two sharp looking elegans!

Tim

[jitami]

No big deal Tami,

I misread (or seem to not see) elements in posts more than I'd like. I checked out your photos - Sly and Ella are two sharp looking elegans!

Tim

Thanks Tim :)

[Odie]

Just got done looking this up with the vet Thiaminase is a problem in (some species of) fish that have not been fresh frozen or are slowly thawed :D Trout & largemouth bass do not Thiaminase :cool:

[mustang]

b1 wont hurt

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

but it probably won't help if there's already thiaminase present :(

[mustang]

the vet said it wont hurt and iv been feeding mine live fish from petco...itsx too small for pinky parts

[tspuckler]

I think what Shannon is saying is that the enzyme thiaminase effectively destroys vitamin B1. So you can add B1, but it's pretty much a waste of time to do so if the fish you are feeding the snake contains thaiminase.

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but thiaminase can be denatured by heating the fish to 80 degrees C in water for 5 minutes.

Tim

[mustang]

whats that in Farnhitte

[drache]

about 176 Fahrenheit

[DrKate]

I think what Shannon is saying is that the enzyme thiaminase effectively destroys vitamin B1. So you can add B1, but it's pretty much a waste of time to do so if the fish you are feeding the snake contains thaiminase.
This is true only to a point. Injecting (frozen/thawed) sub-par feeder fish with liquid multi-B-vitamin before feeding is actually a common thing to do in zoos and other aquaculture situations, according to a vet acquaintance of mine. (Remember, the thiaminase issue affects all piscivorous species including marine mammals, birds, and other fish, not just our snakes.)

You gotta think back to high school biology. :eek: A single enzyme molecule can only work so fast. So you can effectively overwhelm all the thiaminase in a fish by flooding the fish with more B1 than the thiaminase can destroy between the time of the injection and when the enzyme itself is broken down in the gut of the predator. If you put in enough, right before feeding, then there's plenty left for the predator to absorb.

The trick is knowing how much is enough. If you add too little, the fish will still be deficient in thiamine (though less so than without the supplement). If you add too much, the B vitamins can themselves be dangerous. Ideally, I'd suggest that anyone who's interested in taking this route should consult an exotics vet who's interested in nutrition, to establish a safe level of B-vitamin supplement. It's probably easier for most folks to just avoid the thiaminase-containing fish, though. :)

[drache]

from what I understand this only works with thiamine deficient fish (pretty much anything frozen), but not when feeding a prey item that has thiaminase, because the thiaminase doesn't so much destroy the thiamine, as that it blocks it's absorption, and when the absorption is blocked, it doesn't matter how much extra you throw at it

[mustang]

A)parents dont want fish in microwave
B) i got a checkered garter it aiint exotic and i got a good vet

[adamanteus]

The solution is simplicity itself... use trout or salmon, both safe, both readily available from supermarkets, both affordable and both 'socially acceptable' in the average fridge! Why complicate matters with difficult or 'problem' fish?

[mustang]

good idea..is frozen halibut,king salmon ok?

[adamanteus]

I don't know. I keep it simple with salmon and trout.

[mustang]

ok...ill try

[DrKate]

...thiaminase doesn't so much destroy the thiamine, as that it blocks it's absorption, and when the absorption is blocked, it doesn't matter how much extra you throw at it
I've seen that elsewhere too, but never with an actual reference for the information. So, I tried looking it up. Here's the most directly relevant thing I could find on the mechanism of thiaminase:

Nutritional Biochemistry of the Vitamins
David A. Bender
2003
"There are two classes of thiaminase. Thiaminase I catalyzes a base-exchange reaction [...chemistry stuff we don't care about...]. Thiaminase I is relatively widespread in a variety of microorganisms, plants, and fish. In addition to depleting thiamin, the products of base exchange by thiaminase I are structural analogs of the vitamin and may have antagonistic effects (Edwin and Jackman, 1970). [...] Thiaminase II catalyzes a simple hydrolysis [...]. It is relatively rare and is restricted to a small number of microorganisms."

That bold part there may be the source of the idea thrown around among hobbyists that thiaminase "blocks absorption or something." Quite simply, it doesn't - it just breaks down thiamine. BUT, those breakdown products may compete with any surviving thiamine for absorption into and use by the body, which would make the deficiency appear even more severe.

But again, if the supplement level is high enough then this competition should be overcome, too. For example:

Experimental thiamine deficiency in captive harp seals, Phoca groenlandica, induced by eating herring, Clupea harengus, and smelts, Osmerus mordax. Geraci, JR
Can. J. Zool. Vol. 50, no. 2, pp. 179-195. 1972.
Freshwater smelts, and Atlantic herring, both shown to contain thiaminase, were fed to harp seals under a variety of experimental conditions. When thiamine was not administered, the seals developed thiamine deficiency which, in some cases, was fatal. [...medical stuff we don't care about...] Thiamine administered either i. m. or orally, during the course of deficiency, effected prompt recovery. Thereafter, seals maintained on herring required 25-33 mg thiamine/kg of ingesta, if the vitamin was consumed in the diet; if administered 2 hr before feeding, 35 mg/day was sufficient for normal maintenance.

So, it is possible to feed extra thiamine along with thiaminase-containing food and have the seals be OK, but you need more than if you give the thiamine supplement on an empty stomach (no thiaminase present in the gut).

But I fully admit that none of that really matters all that much (except on the general principle of limiting the spread of misinformation) because we already know that even one species of fish can have widely varying amounts of thiaminase, so we could never really determine the "right" amount to supplement. AND, non-thiaminase-containing fish should be readily available to pretty much everyone, at least at the fishmonger if not as live feeders.

But, it provided me a fun sciencey afternoon digging around in the library's scientific databases... :D

[drache]

thanks - that was informative
and it's good to know that if one is for some reason stuck with thiaminase containing fish, there is something one can do to prevent disease

[mustang]

Somebody did theyre homework..could yall do mine

[mustang]

"their" oopse sorry possesive

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I see absolutely no reason or excuse to ever use a thiaminase containing fish when there are already other things available that are totally safe without any additives! My elephant trunk snake will only eat live fish so far. These are a difficult species. All we sell is goldfish and rosies. I don't want to have to feed him these at all... So I special ordered him some feeder mollies through our store... (I had no idea we could do that!) 20 cents a piece! for feeder fish! bah.... but I'll go to any length to make his diet the healthiest possible!!! One day I WILL successfully sneak a f/t silverside in and he WILL eat it!!! or else!:cool:

[DrKate]

One day I WILL successfully sneak a f/t silverside in and he WILL eat it!!! or else!:cool:
Hey speaking of silversides... :rolleyes: I almost bought a package of the SF Bay frozen silversides today, but it was one solid "fish cube" - the fish were all frozen in a solid block of water/juices. Do you just sort of hack pieces off that block, or do you have a trick for extracting individual fish to thaw? I'd have to cut the fish up anyway, so maybe it doesn't matter...

[bsol]

Identification?
It was sold as a minnow, so before I go chucking this in my enclosure i want to know if this little guy and his buddies are going to end up as a meal or as a scent applicator!!!
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/98frontier/IMG_2482.jpg?t=1247180930

[drache]

I see absolutely no reason or excuse to ever use a thiaminase containing fish when there are already other things available that are totally safe without any additives!
I don't really either, but if I had a snake that only eats live fish, and I was on the brink of death with the flu and had to depend on others to buy feeders from a petshop for me . . . it's happened - thankfully I've not stayed ill long enough to make supplementation an issue

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't really either, but if I had a snake that only eats live fish, and I was on the brink of death with the flu and had to depend on others to buy feeders from a petshop for me . . . it's happened - thankfully I've not stayed ill long enough to make supplementation an issue

same here! (elephant trunk snake)

but now thankfully I have a source of live not-goldfish!

[jamromhem]

Identification?
It was sold as a minnow, so before I go chucking this in my enclosure i want to know if this little guy and his buddies are going to end up as a meal or as a scent applicator!!!
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/98frontier/IMG_2482.jpg?t=1247180930
I have the same fish that I picked up with the same information. They were sold as minnows.. I have fed them to mine for about a week now with no problems (other than her sitting in her hollow being a lazy priss) She comes out only after I wake her up by throwing a fish on top of her.

I am thinking about scenting a pinkie with it to try to convince her to eat a pinkie day after tomorrow.. She ate today already so tomorrow she will be fine.

Short term I see no problems with them..

I think their common name is "shiner" which does contain that nasty T word (or has been found to). Short term I don't think there is a problem with this fish, but for the price of a 1lb of salmon depending on the size of your snake it could last a long time and reduce the concern, then you just have to get some calcium in the diet some where.

So what you showed is very similar to a goldfish, but for 24 for around 3 dollars, not a bad buy for a temporary feed.

[DrKate]

Identification?
Well... You haven't gotten anyone jumping forward with a positive ID, here... I guess the best I can say is it's not a guppy. :o It does resemble a rosy red: Robyn's Rosy Red Page (http://www.fishpondinfo.com/rosies.htm). Same general body shape, same fin count & placement. Maybe an aquarists' forum would give you a better ID? :rolleyes: (Incidentally, toward the bottom of that page I linked to, the author mentions people sending them pictures for ID... I can't vouch for their qualifications or anything, but you could try sending your pic there.)

The plain or golden white cloud minnows I've seen in fish stores also look similar, I think they're sometimes sold as feeders too.

I've seen everything from "rosy reds have as much thiaminase as goldfish" to "rosy reds are fine" (on someone's garter care sheet no less!). But never any actual scientific sources for the claims, of course. Much less info in general about white clouds, but they're cyprinids too so the safest guess is that they also have the potential to contain thiaminase.

[bsol]

Better to be safe than sorry!!!

[Millinex]

I know these are a problem in snakes, however I would like to raise the question of is this a known problem in lizards as well? My bait shop sells shiners and they would be great for my nile monitor to vary his diet, but they contain thiaminase. Not sure if niles being such scavengers care or not, or if it will make a huge difference with the staple being mice.

[DrKate]

I know these are a problem in snakes, however I would like to raise the question of is this a known problem in lizards as well?
Hey Mike, I was just looking back at this thread to get some info and I noticed that nobody answered your question.

My understanding is that thiaminase (or more importantly, thiamine-deficient food) is a problem for any species. There must be variation in how sensitive various predator species are, though, because in nature somebody has to prey on all those minnows and anchovies and whatnot.

At any rate, the short answer is I don't know - I haven't seen anything one way or the other about lizards, and it's always possible that they're really sensitive and would have a problem after just one thiamine-deficient meal. I suspect that the occasional live shiner for variety and behavioral enrichment won't harm your lizard, as long as the rest of his diet is nutritionally complete. (If you're dusting any of his prey with vitamin powder then you're very likely OK because that contains thiamine!) But I really can't say for sure.

[Millinex]

Hey Mike, I was just looking back at this thread to get some info and I noticed that nobody answered your question.

My understanding is that thiaminase (or more importantly, thiamine-deficient food) is a problem for any species. There must be variation in how sensitive various predator species are, though, because in nature somebody has to prey on all those minnows and anchovies and whatnot.

At any rate, the short answer is I don't know - I haven't seen anything one way or the other about lizards, and it's always possible that they're really sensitive and would have a problem after just one thiamine-deficient meal. I suspect that the occasional live shiner for variety and behavioral enrichment won't harm your lizard, as long as the rest of his diet is nutritionally complete. (If you're dusting any of his prey with vitamin powder then you're very likely OK because that contains thiamine!) But I really can't say for sure.

Yes I did indeed research into this pretty well. It affects fish and lizards both. A few now and then do not harm the lizard and he will be fine, as long as it isn't staple. I just managed to buy a fishing rod and liscence and catch a few worms. Fillet of bluegill/bass is so much better and easy to get.

[Snakey Lakey]

This is a very interesting discussion. I try to feed my Wandering Garter snake as varied a diet as I can, but I still worry about thiaminase and thiamine deficency.

Sometimes I feed thawed cut up bits of frozen Bluegill. The Bluegill has been in the freezer so long that it is rather freezer-burned, almost like freeze-dried. When reconstituted with water, is this safe to feed? Or should I just throw the Bluegill out.

Surprisingly, I have found that my snake prefers rat pinkies, that are less than 1 day old, over mouse pinkies, even fish scented mouse pinkies.

Sometimes I feed a few (not many, and not often) bites of Tuna that cling to the can when we make Tuna-salad, is that ok?

Three times I have fed about a half-dozen bites of canned cat food cut in half, after our cat has lapped up the liquid and rejected the solids. Is this safe?

In the past this snake has also eaten bits of beef, beef-heart, chicken, frozen-thawed jack-rabbit, and partially canibalized mouse fuzzies.

The stores that sell goldfish and rosy reds are well over one-hundred miles away, so I do not feed those very often, and worry the whole time about thiaminase. Maybe stores should consider selling bluegill, crappie, pumpkinseed, or other sunfish fry as safer feeders.

I saw on the list that Anchovies contain thiaminease; but what about the canned variety from the grocery store? Presumably, they were cooked during the canning process. One can of Anchovies and one can of Sardines have been sitting in the refridgerator since before my father passed on, three years ago (no one else in the family eats them). Could I offer them to my garter, or should I just throw them out?

[guidofatherof5]

Most processed, in this case canned food are high in sodium and other things. They are also cooked. Garters need raw food. The benefits they may offer, lets say a cat are not designed for Garters. They may eat it but that doesn't mean it's good for them. Look at some of the junk we eat and know it's bad for us(hotdogs, bacon, etc.)
I think I would steer away from those items and stick with many of the other natural food you are offering.
The nice thing about the bullgill you are offering is any parasites should be dead. I'm not sure what affect freezer burn may have on the nutritional value of the fish. I might have to check on that one.

[DrKate]

The Bluegill has been in the freezer so long that it is rather freezer-burned, almost like freeze-dried.
It shouldn't be unsafe in any immediate sense, but sub-optimal freezing does degrade the nutritional content of the fish. Vitamin E is the thing that you'd be most worried about there. It would be easy to just puncture a vitamin E capsule and drip some on the food before you feed it, but I've got no idea what an adequate/safe supplement level is. There's also a general vitamin powder available that you could dust the food with, that might do the trick.


Sometimes I feed a few (not many, and not often) bites of Tuna that cling to the can when we make Tuna-salad, is that ok?
Canned tuna is processed with a lot of salt, which the snake wouldn't normally get. I honestly don't know if it has the right kind of thirst response to deal with that safely. Unless you think the snake *really* likes it as a treat, it would be better to avoid altogether.


Three times I have fed about a half-dozen bites of canned cat food cut in half
Your call. There's a well-known garter hobbyist/expert that advocates feeding cat food as a staple diet. Pretty much everyone else thinks it's a terrible idea: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/5508-cat-food.html#post110759


In the past this snake has also eaten bits of beef, beef-heart, chicken, frozen-thawed jack-rabbit, and partially canibalized mouse fuzzies.
Those are probably all fine as part of a varied diet. I think the consensus is that garters are pretty opportunistic in the wild. BUT you should remember that any meat (strips of meat, without the bones and guts of whole prey) is going to be very deficient in calcium, including fish. So if most of your meals are bluegill fillet or strips of butchered meat, you should dip the items in calcium powder every couple of meals.


I saw on the list that Anchovies contain thiaminease; but what about the canned variety from the grocery store?
It's true that the canning process would inactivate thiaminase in anchovies and sardines, but again the salt (and oil) is not going to be good for the snake. Make some pizza, or throw 'em out - sorry! :)

[KITKAT]

This is a very interesting discussion. I try to feed my Wandering Garter snake as varied a diet as I can, but I still worry about thiaminase and thiamine deficency.

Sometimes I feed thawed cut up bits of frozen Bluegill. The Bluegill has been in the freezer so long that it is rather freezer-burned, almost like freeze-dried. When reconstituted with water, is this safe to feed? Or should I just throw the Bluegill out.

Frozen fish is safe and nutritious for six months. Bluegill is free of thiamin. Therefore, fish caught in August/September could be fed until February/March. With a little planning, you can cover almost the entire year. Depending on when you provide brumation for your snakes, you could begin again with fresh Bluegill early in the spring.


Sometimes I feed a few (not many, and not often) bites of Tuna that cling to the can when we make Tuna-salad, is that ok?

Tuna has a problem that is different from thiaminase, but similar. Tuna is known to be deficient in vitamin E. Further, Tuna is packed in salty water or oil. I would not feed canned tuna to my snakes. However, if Tuna is known to be free of thiaminase, and if you have access to affordable sushi, you might feed raw tuna once in a great while. (Raw salmon is free of thiaminase, and is the staple fish that I use for feeding).


Three times I have fed about a half-dozen bites of canned cat food cut in half, after our cat has lapped up the liquid and rejected the solids. Is this safe?

I have fed cat food to a baby that refused to eat, but I would strongly advise against it on a normal basis.


In the past this snake has also eaten bits of beef, beef-heart, chicken, frozen-thawed jack-rabbit, and partially canibalized mouse fuzzies.

raw meats and mouse parts are typical diets for garters.


The stores that sell goldfish and rosy reds are well over one-hundred miles away, so I do not feed those very often, and worry the whole time about thiaminase. Maybe stores should consider selling bluegill, crappie, pumpkinseed, or other sunfish fry as safer feeders.

All of these species are thiaminase safe, but the fry will have spines in their dorsal fins, which would be dangerous for the garter to ingest. strips of bluegill would be safe, but not available as a live food, of course.


I saw on the list that Anchovies contain thiaminease; but what about the canned variety from the grocery store? Presumably, they were cooked during the canning process. One can of Anchovies and one can of Sardines have been sitting in the refridgerator since before my father passed on, three years ago (no one else in the family eats them). Could I offer them to my garter, or should I just throw them out?

Canned anchovies/sardines contain oil and are smoked. They are not safe for your garter due to the flavorings that are added during processing.

To keep your bluegill from freezer burn, freeze each fish in a ziplock bag that contains water. The water will encase the fish, and prevent dehydration from the freezer - this will make them last the six months you need to have a supply most of the year.

[Frédérick]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but thiaminase can be denatured by heating the fish to 80 degrees C in water for 5 minutes.

Tim

That's very interesting, if someone was in a bad situation with feeder availability for some time, this should be regarded, as well as B1 supplementation (say moderate amounts but frequent, over a period of months?) i guess this way the thiaminase present in the garter would eventually ''fade out'', which can take a good while and the snake would have some B1 to absorb over time, given the heating trick does a very good job at denaturing the enzyme in the subsequent feeders...food for thought!

[Jimyd]

Hey again, was busy with college and stuff and the thread took awhile to get approved.

I'll try to get some pics when I can.

Best bet for me would be to feed him pinky mice since there is not really any local petstores I know of that sell un-thiaminase fish. Petco and Petsmart are really my only options.

Although the snake(don't know if male/female) does not really go for things already dead.

@Previouscoments: Yeah Petstore employees really don't know anything, unless it is about a dog or a cat.

But my original question still stands, would I start to see any thiaminase related health developments after all these years. BTW this snake was an addition to two wild caught alligator lizards with one caught up by stampede lake and the caught by my dad near a water treatment plant for the county way back when,[they lasted for 7-10(i'll have to find my old photo pics that have the exact dates on them) years] which has outlasted both of them.

How long should I expect one of these snakes to live for assuming no problems arise?

Also when I caught the snake it was already about 1 foot long exactly and my lizards were already between 2-3 years old at the time when snake was added(thats adding in estimated time based on their size from approximate wild birth, lizards were probably one years each when I put them in a tank with the second one caught about half a year older than the first).

Sorry for the little tangent there, but maybe this snake somehow has a higher tolerance to the thiamine defficiency because of its history of being a wild caught snake?

Would love to hear more of your guys/gals theory on it. I'll try to have pics next time I post. BTW there is no red in the snake, just what i said before. No blues either.

[jitami]

Hi, I'm also in the Sacramento area and you're right, it's nearly impossible to find appropriate live fish for your garter here. However, you should be able to switch it over to either frozen thawed mice or frozen thawed fish rather easily. Petco has both mice and silversides or you could go to the grocery store and get a salmon or trout fillet and slice it into appropriate sized strips. Just put a couple of the live fish that he's used to in a small bowl of water with the dead(frozen thawed) prey item and he's very likely to hit the dead prey item and swallow it. Usually you only need to do this a couple of times and they'll readily accept your prefered food.

Sorry if this has all been mentioned... didn't read through the entire thread again.