Feeding Frogs?

[Ibkukin]

I have been feeding my garter snake small frogs which I catch outside. I have tons of them outside and they are always readily available certain times of the year. He seems to like them very much and I never have trouble getting him to eat. As a matter of fact he will immdediately eat as many as I put in there every day. He is about 13" long.

I have two questions.

1. Are frogs good for him to eat?

2. How many should I give him and how often?

Thanks!

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome to the forum. Glad you joined.
Frogs are good but be aware they do tend to carry parasites. Switching him over to a more safe food(nightcrawlers, salmon,tilapia, guppies, f/t(frozen/thawed) pinkies) gives a much less chance he'll have a heavy parasite load.
Finding a good Herp. Vet in your area is a good thing to know whether you use them right away or not. Getting a fecal sample in for a parisite screen will give you peace of mind after you switch him over on food. Giving a variety in a diet is great. Many, if not all foods have pros and cons. Giving variety balances that all out.

If possible post a photo so he can be identified.
I feed my babies 2 or 3 times a week. Adults get once a week and as a treat twice a week sometimes. Garters will eat everyday but since captive snakes don't get the same amount of exercise it can lead to obesity. I hope this has been helpful and once again, welcome.

[drache]

I wonder about frogs . . .
my thinking is that whatever people can catch in their yards probably has less of a parasite load than anything that's been cycled through the pet industry - not sure why exactly I have that belief

[Ibkukin]

It seems to me that if frogs are something they eat in nature then they should be fine in captivity. Frogs are a good source of lean protien as well as calcium since they have bones. I have read somewhere that if snakes are only fed meat without bones they can get calcium deficiency. I guess I am applying to the snake how I eat. "Fresh and local". Please correct me if I am wrong in my thinking.

[gregmonsta]

As far as I have read the biggest parasite problem with feeding frogs and toads is lungworm.

[Sid]

I wonder about frogs . . .
my thinking is that whatever people can catch in their yards probably has less of a parasite load than anything that's been cycled through the pet industry - not sure why exactly I have that belief
Rhea,
I lost two gravid female garters feeding solely frogs from my yard before knowing of the parasite problem.

I don't think an occasional frog will hurt, but I wouldn't let them be a primary diet.

[drache]

Rhea,
I lost two gravid female garters feeding solely frogs from my yard before knowing of the parasite problem.

I don't think an occasional frog will hurt, but I wouldn't let them be a primary diet.
that's good to know
not that I even have the opportunity
that had to hurt though . . .

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I myself wonder about the frog thing, and would love to see a bit more factual stuff rather than just everyone repeating that frogs are parasite laden creatures to be avoided at all costs. Is that an actual fact and is there documented proof somewhere that frogs are parasite laden and the risk of spread is super dangerous to our snakes? Or do we just repeat what we heard through the grapevine, that may or not be an assumption that some random herp keeper decided in their mind and started telling people, over and over? I myself have long avoided frogs unless I NEED them for the parasite reason, but not without questioning it heavily. I have used both frogs and salamanders to start finicky eaters, both wild caught snakes and captive bred, both large and small. None of them are dead or sickened of parasites, and I am not talking 1 or 2 snakes here, I am talking many. Frogs are very sensitive creatures themselves, and an overload of parasites or even the slightest change in their environment can kill them rather quickly. I would feed a frog I found in the back yard before I would use one that was ordered from a mass supplier as a feeder, that not only is WC but extremely stressed and sickened. I received feeder frogs with a snake purchase and I didn't want to use them because they looked very worn out, and I set these little tree frogs up and fed them well only to watch all 6 die within two weeks despite my valiant efforts.

The problem with worrying about parasites is that they are simply everywhere, all of the time. Snakes can even get parasites from frozen thawed captive bred rodents. A parasite can make its way into your snake simply by you going out into the yard and bringing eggs in on your shirt or hands and then allowing the snake to contact them. The problem with parasites is that their methods of spreading are invisible to the naked eye, and that not only makes them very efficient at what they do, but very scary and I think sometimes parasite risks give us keepers a little more paranoia than they are really worth. I have backed down on my parasite paranoia a little in realizing that it's a little too much worry. I realize now that there is a risk of parasite infestation every time my snake eats anything, from ANYwhere. The best I can do is feed the healthiest food items I can acquire, and know the signs and be on the lookout for changes in my snakes, and recieve proper treatment when necessary. That is a far more efective method of parasite control than speculating what *may or may not* be lurking in a food item.

One thing about parasites that kind of skeeves me is that 1 in every 3 americans is living without a clue that they are hosting some sort of gastrointestinal parasite. I shudder to think what may be living inside of me. Remember, parasites are built to live unnoticed and in harmony with their host, and only if the host falls sickly or ill, or if the parasite is purposely malicious to benefit it's own reproductive cycle, will the host sicken or die because of them. The usual cause of a parasite related death is that the parasite ends up in a host that it's not supposed to, and it does all the wrong things because it's in the wrong body.

[Stefan-A]

Can't say much about frogs, but every single wildcaught vertebrate I've ever dissected, has had plenty of intestinal parasites.

If the parasite risk/problem isn't convincing enough, how about the fact that amphibians aren't exactly doing great?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

The question is, are the parasites found inside those WC vertebrates in fact spreadable to our snakes? That's not a poke in the ribs to Stefan that's just a serious question I have that I am having trouble finding answers to... worldwide, you are totally right, they're not doing well on a global basis. BUT, in my backyard, with all this rain I can't even take a walk outside without accidentally smooshing a baby toad or frog... so if I need to use a few to get a picky eater off the ground, I do! I don't use them as a steady diet though as there is really no reason to. Garters are easy to switch onto other already dead preys and I don't enjoy decimating wild populations of frogs for my convenience.

I forgot to say to the OP that overall, I would recommend switching to a more reliable, non- wild caught food source. By taking so many you are unknowingly taking the frogs that could have fed a hungry wild garter for a day. Even if there's an abundance, It's still one less frog that is removed from the population, and good hobbyists generally try to avoid doing that unless they have a snake that will starve without a frog to eat. Even then, we generally use frogs/salamanders and quickly switch over via scenting. I would only use them while it's absolutely necessary and then make the switch.

[Stefan-A]

The question is, are the parasites found inside those WC vertebrates in fact spreadable to our snakes? That's not a poke in the ribs to Stefan that's just a serious question I have that I am having trouble finding answers to...
Duly noted.

The answer is "Yes." Many of them are spreadable. We can get many of them if we eat uncooked or undercooked fish. The fact that both amphibians and reptiles are "cold blooded", already takes down one barrier (temperature) that could perhaps otherwise prevent some parasites from transfering from prey to predator.


worldwide, you are totally right, they're not doing well on a global basis. BUT, in my backyard, with all this rain I can't even take a walk outside without accidentally smooshing a baby toad or frog... so if I need to use a few to get a picky eater off the ground, I do!Local abundance says nothing about the overall situation. Remember that kid who fed T. brachystomas to his ringnecks? He used that argument.


I don't use them as a steady diet though as there is really no reason to. Garters are easy to switch onto other already dead preys and I don't enjoy decimating wild populations of frogs for my convenience. Good.

Just to be clear, I'm not being short here to be rude, it's just that it's 2:39 AM. ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Local abundance says nothing about the overall situation. Remember that kid who fed T. brachystomas to his ringnecks? He used that argument.

;)

If the species of frog in my yard were an endangered species like t. brachystoma I would see it comparable... but considering the frogs in my yard are not endangered, and are not illegal to take, and I need a few every now and then, I feel no shame. As far as the world's amphibian population goes, I can't really do much for them except continue to advise people that on no circumstances should they be releasing amphibians into the wild. People are always wanting to buy bullfrog tadpoles at my store and then say they just want to turn them loose when the change into a frog. Makes me sick every time. Then they get offended when I tell them it's not okay to do that.

[DrKate]

my thinking is that whatever people can catch in their yards probably has less of a parasite load than anything that's been cycled through the pet industry
Yes and no... Diseases do spread better in dense, stressed-out populations such as feeder breeding colonies, and some parasites can thrive under those conditions. BUT... Many parasite species require more than one host species to complete their life cycle - for example, a vertebrate and an invertebrate host - so wild-caught prey that have been living outdoors in a natural environment really do have more of those kind of parasites.

There is also the fact that parasites usually adapt to particular host species. In their normal host, they don't to much harm and are pretty much just along for the ride. But if they get into an *abnormal* host, they can cause severe illness. So a perfectly healthy wild-caught frog could be carrying a parasite that would make your snake very sick (this scenario is most likely for the lungworms already mentioned). Unfortunately, dissecting a specimen and seeing how many parasites you can find doesn't tell you much about whether any of those could in fact spread to your snakes (unless you can identify the parasites and know their biology). If the parasites in your local frogs can't spread to snakes, then eating a parasite-laden frog is just that much more nutrition for the snake. :)

So my guess is, there are risks to each kind of food source. I wish I could offer more specific information than that. :o I don't know enough about the parasites of snakes (or frogs/fish/mice/earthworms) to know which parasites and therefore which food sources are most worrisome. And of course, in the case of the wild-caught foods, risks change depending on where you are, what species exactly you're feeding, what time of year it is...

I don't want to make any promises I can't keep, but I may be able to ask some bona fide parasitologists what they think about what prey items are "cleaner" in terms of parasites that would harm snakes. If I get anything useful I'll post back here, since so many of us are using wild-caught prey of one kind or another (even earthworms are part of the life cycle of some parasites).

[Stefan-A]

If the species of frog in my yard were an endangered species like t. brachystoma I would see it comparable... but considering the frogs in my yard are not endangered, and are not illegal to take, and I need a few every now and then, I feel no shame.
Legislation always lags behind and the current status says nothing about population trends.

[Stefan-A]

Unfortunately, dissecting a specimen and seeing how many parasites you can find doesn't tell you much about whether any of those could in fact spread to your snakes (unless you can identify the parasites and know their biology).
So true. However, my point was first and foremost to address the question whether or not they are parasite-laden. :)



I don't want to make any promises I can't keep, but I may be able to ask some bona fide parasitologists what they think about what prey items are "cleaner" in terms of parasites that would harm snakes. If I get anything useful I'll post back here, since so many of us are using wild-caught prey of one kind or another (even earthworms are part of the life cycle of some parasites).
That would be greatly appreciated.

[celticguitar]

That is a very good question. I think collecting frogs from an area where this an abundance of frog won't destroy the population if you are the only one doing it. There is a local woodland pond where they are so many Green and leapord frogs you almost step on them walking along the edge of the pond. I see atl east 4-5 garter snakes with a casual look. I read that frogs are a good marker as to the cleanlyness of a pond as far as pesticides and this pond has a ton. I saw in a 2 foot area near the shore at least a hundred newly morphed frogs and toads (spade foots!) etc. So there is plenty to eat. As far as parasite load goes? I guess if it's a clean area the load would less? but not nil and I think all live stuff even pet store unless it's frozen dead mice are going to have bacteria and probably parasites because do you think they really care?. If you have a good healthy specimen of snake with a nice clean healthy enviroment I don't think they would overwhelmed but the occasional frog. My garters are wild caught and they look healthy clean and active they came form this pond area I spoke of but I feed them worms and guppies although one ate a frog on the way home because I did have a seperate container for the snake and frog ooops:)
Dwight

[Stefan-A]

That is a very good question. I think collecting frogs from an area where this an abundance of frog won't destroy the population if you are the only one doing it.
It would depend on the total amount removed from the area.

[celticguitar]

It would depend on the total amount removed from the area.
True but if you are only taking one or 2 I doubt that's much of an impact. I am not advocating it the place I go to is probably over populated as it is and there would a natural die off to keep things in check but then again you are interfering with natural selection and taking away the fit that survive. My green frog came from there and he will probably return in the fall so he can breed next year he's just a summer observation pet for my son and I He's 5 1/2 and I am introducing him to nature up close and personal.
Dwight

[Stefan-A]

True but if you are only taking one or 2 I doubt that's much of an impact.
But why take them at all, when there are better and safer options?


I am not advocating it the place I go to is probably over populated as it is and there would a natural die off to keep things in check but then again you are interfering with natural selection and taking away the fit that survive.
Every population is at its maximum size, overpopulation tends to occur after some dramatic change, as when a species spreads to a new area or a year when reproduction has been exceptionally successful. Or when the size of the population is considered big enough that it becomes a nuisance to us. It's not possible to interfere with natural selection, either. It occurs regardless. It's not like a fragile ecosystem, it's more like math. ;)

I'm trying to keep this short, so I apologise for the lack of illustrating examples. :)


My green frog came from there and he will probably return in the fall so he can breed next year he's just a summer observation pet for my son and I He's 5 1/2 and I am introducing him to nature up close and personal.
Dwight
Of course it's your choice and he'll probably learn a lot, but I can't see anything good coming from keeping summer observation pets, as far as the animal itself is concerned.

Don't worry, I'm just thinking out loud. :)

[GradStudentLeper]

As far as feeding frogs is concerned...

Yes. They are good for garter snakes to eat. They are what they feed on in the wild primarily (depending on species and population of course. I work with cyrtopsis in my lab, frog specialists). They provide complete low fat nutrition.

As to the issue of parasites, everything has parasites. You have parasites, I have parasites (90% of us have pinworm, it is often why little spaces inside your nether regions itch, there is a roundworm squirming around where it does not want to be), snakes have parasites, feeder mice have parasites. You get the point. The issue is not whether or not a given prey item has parasites that can be transmitted to the snake. They do. This issue is two fold:

1) Does the snake have defenses against the parasites?

Much like giving native americans small pox blankets, a pathogen a snake has not co-evolved with (If there is a creationist here... I am evolutionary biologist. Bite me) can cause a lot more harm to it than one which it has. There is a cost to an animal to defend against every possible predator. There is not much of one to being flexible with prey choice. As a result parasites are more likely to be able to jump species than their host is likely to be able to put up a strong defense.

Of course what I mean to say here is that by switching to something the snake would not normally eat in the wild (like feeding T. atratus mice) you actually cause more problems than you would be feeding the snake frogs.

2)Does the snake have the resources it needs to deal with the parasites or live with them?

These snakes survive in the wild with the parasite loads of their prey. This must be true, or there would be no snakes. An animal that dies from parasites has other problems like osmotic stress or poor nutrition. IE there just was not enough food to go around that year. This can also happen to breeding females, because they are capital breeders. Unlike a human who is pregant and has odd cravigs for dill pickle icecream, a female garter snake dumps her fat reserves into reproduction. If she has a heavy parasite load and then a bad prey year happens, she dies.

Unless you are doing something wrong, this should NEVER happen in captivity. In fact, you should by all rights have snakes that are so fat and happy you need to worry about obesity more than parasites.

Now this is not to say freaky things cant happen. But they should be rare, rare things, and typically result from other husbandry problems. After all, under far more stressful conditions than exist in your hopefully naturalistic palaudarium (I cant stand seeing semi-aquatic snakes in terrestrial setups) these snakes can thrive and reach very high densities.

Long story short. Go ahead, feed frogs to your snakes. If you are worried about parasites, collect egg masses and raise tadpoles, or hell do what I will be doing for my lab animals and breed your own.

As for whether you should use the frogs in your yard, that is another matter. It depends on where you live and what species they are. Do you happen to know what kind of frogs?

[celticguitar]

But why take them at all, when there are better and safer options?




Of course it's your choice and he'll probably learn a lot, but I can't see anything good coming from keeping summer observation pets, as far as the animal itself is concerned.

Don't worry, I'm just thinking out loud. :)
Me too!
Other than becoming lazy and getting a good free feed on gut fed crickets, a safe place to hang, getting bigger stronger etc. but no real benifit for him. but my son gets to see feed see him up close without getting bit by deer ticks and get's to learn how to handle creatures gently and have greater respect for nature and not be scared of it. I have him set up on the deck in the back yard so he is still kind of outside in the elements. I am just rambling now and getting away from the topic of post Yes there are better things to feed your critters :)

[GradStudentLeper]

Every population is at its maximum size, overpopulation tends to occur after some dramatic change, as when a species spreads to a new area or a year when reproduction has been exceptionally successful. Or when the size of the population is considered big enough that it becomes a nuisance to us. It's not possible to interfere with natural selection, either. It occurs regardless. It's not like a fragile ecosystem, it's more like math.

Frogs, like everything else, produce more offspring than can ever possibly survive to reproduce. To illustrate this, post metamorphosis, you can go by a pond with a healthy frog population and not be able to avoid stepping on little frogs. You dont see nearly that many adults, because of the juvenile mortality rate on metamorphs (it is even worse for tadpoles). As a matter of fact, the vast majority of those individuals that you see hopping around, will probably die from predation, many of them from, well the very snakes you are feeding them to (this holds in the US, and in finland with Natrix natix if you have them there)

Taking a few metamorphs from these populations wont harm a damn thing provided the population is healthy. If they are green frogs (Lithobates clamitans) I can guarantee the population is healthy, they are not in decline.

[DrKate]

As a matter of fact, the vast majority of those individuals that you see hopping around, will probably die from predation
[...]
Taking a few metamorphs from these populations wont harm a damn thing
Except of course the predator population...

[GradStudentLeper]

Except of course the predator population...

Not really. There are good and bad years for every organism. Plus you relieve intraspecific competition and decrease the overall mortality rate. The only way a single person can start hurting a population of frogs or their metamorphs through collection is essentially to collect them commercially(IE, use a sein or drift fence to sample the entire water way), collect whole egg masses (instead of parts) or to start taking breeding adults. Alternatively he could poison the waterway or introduce a non-native frog. Oh and Chitrid.

Taking a few once or twice a week to feed to snakes during the summer months will not even be detectable by the math you use to calculate age specific mortality. Unless we are talking about a threatened species with unstable populations like... virtually all of the frogs native your home state.

[DrKate]

Just making the point that everything is connected. If you're making a well-educated choice to make an impact that you believe is sustainable through those good and bad years, that's totally fine by me. But I do think suggesting that celticguitar's and Ibkukin's impacts can be written off as completely harmless (and by implication not worth educating themselves about) is irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong, I think assuming that the impact of collecting wild frogs is overwhelmingly greater than other available foods (e.g. store-bought fish from potentially unsustainable fisheries), and AGAIN by implication not worth educating oneself about, is also irresponsible.

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.

[GradStudentLeper]

Just making the point that everything is connected. If you're making a well-educated choice to make an impact that you believe is sustainable through those good and bad years, that's totally fine by me. But I do think suggesting that celticguitar's and Ibkukin's impacts can be written off as completely harmless (and by implication not worth educating themselves about) is irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong, I think assuming that the impact of collecting wild frogs is overwhelmingly greater than other available foods (e.g. store-bought fish from potentially unsustainable fisheries), and AGAIN by implication not worth educating oneself about, is also irresponsible.

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.

Oh of course, I am not saying that such concerns should be written off, which is why I have been specifying healthy populations of non-declining frogs. If the frogs in your yard are yellow legged frogs, dont touch those... On the other hand if they are green frogs or bullfrogs, you cant hurt the populations of those species if you try.

[celticguitar]

Just making the point that everything is connected. If you're making a well-educated choice to make an impact that you believe is sustainable through those good and bad years, that's totally fine by me. But I do think suggesting that celticguitar's and Ibkukin's impacts can be written off as completely harmless (and by implication not worth educating themselves about) is irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong, I think assuming that the impact of collecting wild frogs is overwhelmingly greater than other available foods (e.g. store-bought fish from potentially unsustainable fisheries), and AGAIN by implication not worth educating oneself about, is also irresponsible.

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.
Then I guess none of us should be collecting snakes from the wild population by definition of your statement and from what I read is what alot of us do.:eek: You could look at it like my snakes came from that area and I collected a few frogs from that area wouldn't I just be removing the frogs that my guys would eat anyway? I feed my guys worms so other than the little green frog that I have it's a non issue for me. I also forgot to mention I raised a bunch of tadpoles this spring to let my son watch them morph and released them back. I have a little understanding of sustainable populations and the need not to remove the most fit specimens to maintain good gene pools to maintain populations. I am not advocating commercial harvesting and while I am not at this area 24 /7 I truly believe I am one of a very few if any who visit this spot who would could possibly be interested in collecting frogs to feed snakes which I am not. So for the most part I am only talking about my small part of the universe and people have to be intelligent about what goes on in their little microcosoms they vist. If they see very few frogs then the should leave them alone as the area is not healthy but if they are tripping over them well what's couple of frogs between friends:)
Dwight

[GradStudentLeper]

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.

I thought of this again, and I could not help but say this:

I am the local university amphibian biologist... in addition to my rather extensive home collection of snakes and frogs, I am a Ph.D student who does his work with predation strategies in aquatic snakes, and the evolution of predator recognition and defensive strategies in frogs, the later focuses on behavioral defenses and adaptive shifts in population structure.

[DrKate]

Then I guess none of us should be collecting snakes from the wild population by definition of your statement and from what I read is what alot of us do.
Well, yes and no... What I'd hope is that you've educated yourself about the populations of snakes you collect from, and are only taking a sustainable number. Sure, for the vast majority of people, taking one or two (or ten) garter snakes in a year is going to be a pretty negligible impact. Then again, as pretty as they are, I'm not out chasing my local San Francisco garters. :)


You could look at it like my snakes came from that area and I collected a few frogs from that area wouldn't I just be removing the frogs that my guys would eat anyway?
Good point. ;)

[DrKate]

I am the local university amphibian biologist...
I did think of that, actually. ;) All of your comments have included "if the local population is healthy" which is a fine caveat to make. My point in suggesting a local biologist as a resource is that they would be able to say whether the population in question is, in fact, healthy enough to tolerate the amount of collecting the person anticipates doing. As of yet I don't think we know either a location or a frog species in Ibkukin's case...

Oh, and best of luck with the rest of your training!

[Stefan-A]

Interesting discussion, I hope it stays that way.


My point in suggesting a local biologist as a resource is that they would be able to say whether the population in question is, in fact, healthy enough to tolerate the amount of collecting the person anticipates doing.
Just to continue on that note, my biggest concern is going to be the overall situation, until the IUCN gets around to doing a Red List of North American amphibians.

[Stefan-A]

Frogs, like everything else, produce more offspring than can ever possibly survive to reproduce.
I'm very much familiar with the strategy, thank you.


As a matter of fact, the vast majority of those individuals that you see hopping around, will probably die from predation, many of them from, well the very snakes you are feeding them to (this holds in the US, and in finland with Natrix natix if you have them there)Yes, that's something I am considering here. In fact, it's something I'm sort of counting on.


Taking a few metamorphs from these populations wont harm a damn thing provided the population is healthy. If they are green frogs (Lithobates clamitans) I can guarantee the population is healthy, they are not in decline.Only a few from a healthy population, I'm not going to argue with that. But why make the assumption that the population is healthy and that only a few are being harvested?

[celticguitar]

I have to admit this was a great discussion with everybody remaning civil with each which is not always the case on alot of forums. This type of discussion will always give us pause to consider the impact of our hobby on nauture and to do what we can to educate and make others responsible for what they do. Enjoy! Good luck with your graduate work!
a little segue My oldest brother has his Phd in biology specializing in mosses and lichens. I use to go with him when he was collecting specimens for his doctorate work and setting up humidity temp. monitors that enabled him to build a tank to grow his moss that were the subject of his thesis. This particular moss was only thought to grow in Germany at the time and he discovered it growing in a bird sanctury here in Rhode Island. I learned alot about ecosystems and how variences affect them. I was 8 or 9 or so at the time and he even taught me the latin names of the mosses and lichens (none of which I remember now). He also taught me about forgs turtles and such some of which I remember. He is the source of some of my info. Thanks again for being a friendly bunch
Dwight

[Stefan-A]

I have to admit this was a great discussion with everybody remaning civil with each which is not always the case on alot of forums.
I want to emphasize this part especially. This is a forum where we're sort of used to discussions staying civil, even when we strongly disagree with each other or when we get frustrated with others.

[adamanteus]

Absolutely! That's one of the things I enjoy so much about this forum... You can open a topic which you know is going to cause heated debate, but without the fear that the discussion will deteriorate into abuse and name calling.

[gregmonsta]

:rolleyes: There's no place like home :D .... the funny thing is .... when you post something sensible on a full on posting war on another forum it gets completely ignored.

This forum is full of good humour and community spirit :D and I'm proud to be a member.

[DrKate]

This forum is full of good humour and community spirit http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/../images/smilies/biggrin.gif and I'm proud to be a member.
YAY Team Thamnophis!! :D (Only partially sarcastic, I promise! I too am impressed with the community feel.)

Hey Ibkukin, are you still following the thread, or have we gotten way too off track? Notwithstanding Stefan's point about the overall sad state of amphibian populations worldwide, I think knowing your location and what kind of frogs you've got would be necessary for anyone to really tell you if your local frogs are OK to feed your snakes both from a nutritional point of view (e.g. frogs and not toads, and not known to be toxic or anything) AND from an ecological point of view (healthy numbers in your area). If you don't know the kind of frog/toad, you could post a pic and your location and probably someone could make a pretty good guess.

[Zephyr]

Personally I don't see any problems with taking a few frogs/toads. I'm sure a wholesale collector could do a lot worse than a hobbyist.
And, if you're really paranoid about taking stuff, go for tadpoles; if they're as abundant in your area as they are here, I'm sure it won't hurt the ecosystem significantly.
**Also, on the parasite side of the issue; If you found the frogs/tadpoles out and about, chances are they don't have "lethal" parasites. A sick frog, toad, or tadpole in the wild has a notable appearance; dead.

[celticguitar]

YAY Team Thamnophis!! :D (Only partially sar If you don't know the kind of frog/toad, you could post a pic and your location and probably someone could make a pretty good guess.



I think we lost Ibukin in the discusion. I agree with your above statement the species of frog would be important to know and the number available to collect from.
segue my little guys are still doing great on worms! They are cheap and easily obtaianed and easy to use
Dwight

[GradStudentLeper]

But why make the assumption that the population is healthy and that only a few are being harvested?

This requires a person being intelligent and familiar with local conservation issues. I would not for example recommend collecting mountain yellow legged frogs to feed to your pet T. atratus.

Amphibian declines are caused by three things

1) Chitrid Fungus. Many north american species are resistant to this, either because the climate is not suitable for the fungus, or because the anti-fungal compounds in the frog's skin confer protection.

2)Invasive predators/competitors. Bullfrogs feed on and replace native frogs when introduced...

3) Habitat destruction. Need I say more?

Most of the species a person will encounter in their yard though are resistant to the later, because their habitat requirements are very broad. For example: Southern Leopard Frogs can be found anywhere from swamps to residential drainage canals. So long as there is water and vegetation, these frogs do fine and reproduce in large numbers.

One just needs to pay attention, and learn about the prey animals they catch.

[Stefan-A]

This requires a person being intelligent and familiar with local conservation issues. I would not for example recommend collecting mountain yellow legged frogs to feed to your pet T. atratus.
The problem is that not everybody is familiar with conservation issues and I don't see the point in assuming that people are.


Amphibian declines are caused by three things

1) Chitrid Fungus. Many north american species are resistant to this, either because the climate is not suitable for the fungus, or because the anti-fungal compounds in the frog's skin confer protection.

2)Invasive predators/competitors. Bullfrogs feed on and replace native frogs when introduced...

3) Habitat destruction. Need I say more?
Going by the IUCN red list of amphibians in Europe, the biggest threats here are habitat loss/degradation, pollution and climate change and in third place... harvesting (hunting/gathering). Invasive alien species, a category that includes chytridiomycosis and the American bullfrog, were deemed a smaller threat than all of these. Of course, this is just our situation, yours is still to be determined, it seems. However, judging only by what I've seen, harvesting is far more widespread and intensive over there, especially compared to Northern Europe, where it's practically unheard of.


Most of the species a person will encounter in their yard though are resistant to the later, because their habitat requirements are very broad. For example: Southern Leopard Frogs can be found anywhere from swamps to residential drainage canals. So long as there is water and vegetation, these frogs do fine and reproduce in large numbers.
Yeah, most species a person will encounter in their yard, already belong to a population subjected to habitat destruction or, at the very least, degradation. It's a basic problem with land development. However, that they manage to survive and presumably breed in drainage canals and ditches doesn't mean it's a healthy population or that it's safe to collect any. That they have to, is to me an indicator that it probably isn't.


One just needs to pay attention, and learn about the prey animals they catch.
And when in doubt, leave them as they are.

[Melmo]

Bullfrogs are such a big problem in the US. Living in a place where they are invasive, which is in a lot of places, I wouldn't be afraid to take smaller individuals or tadpoles to feed to captive garters. In fact, I know people who eat invasive Bullfrogs, to protect native population.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

It's been a while...

I have 2 Coast Garters (I still call the Humboldt County populations Coasts, since this locality has anomalies that produced a lonely 3rd cladistic branch in the recentT. elegans study, where most terrestris were absorbed by the "Mountain" clade). I also have 1 infernalis and "Lefty", the one-eyed atratatus hydrophilus. All have fed on frogs that were derived from a single mating of 2 W/C Pacific Chorus Frogs; these were raised from egg to small adult in a small backyard pond (Our neighborhood is a cacophony of P. regilla in winter and spring). I also feed W/C CA Slender Salamanders to my Ring-neck and Sharp-tail; these come from the compost bin in my backyard.

There is always a feeling of reservation when I feed my W/C snakes W/C or W/C-bred prey. No, I do not really know the specific trends of all the surrounding populations; yes, they appear healthy... I do however believe that some of my own snake research may have to discontinue in the future due to the current plight of amphibians worldwide. In our county, they are plentiful; but for how long? Chytrid is getting close, as it has been found in the Trinity Alps east of us and is entering multiple watersheds. It's not an if, but a when. Please remember, an apparently healthy population of frogs could be wiped out in a very short time with the fungus. Perhaps the time has come to get the arks started, or just leave them alone; any numbers on their side may offer an edge.

I work in invasive weed management in Redwood National Park, and the problem with exotic invasives is relentless. I see, no matter how good our intentions may be, we are too late in addressing some of the invasions. Sudden oak death, Port Orford Cedar disease, Chytrid, New Zealand Mud Snails, Bullfrogs, Scotch Broom, Himalaya Berry, English Ivy, you name it! The neverending tug of war in funding projects that address these concerns often leads to bare containment... I mean like forget even trying to eradicate any one of these completely; the vectors are almost impossible to control (#1 vector: people, the most invasive species of them all! Try telling your average American what to do... Ha! ha! ha! Not funny! I mean, really, do we honestly think we can get every hiker or fisherman to sterilize his or her boots after every outing? How would that get policed?)

In the case of my Coasts and CA Red-sided, I have already fed some pinkies to the Coasts, and hope to turn these on to the infernalis. As for my atratus, Lefty gets trout filet and yes, the occasional frog... As for the parasites, that is a risk I have chosen to take in dealing with wild-caughts.
I will soon be co-authoring some scientific text for the herp journals regarding the dietary preferences of some of the W/C snakes I keep. Some of the info has never been documented before. None of the discoveries made would have occurred without taking that risk. Please believe me when I say I do actually love frogs as much as snakes....well... okay....

As for bullfrogs, if it's west of the Rockies, kill 'em, eat 'em, feed 'em, or donate them to science.

Also, I expect to see an increase in Pacific Chorus Frogs where their populations overlap with other species affected by chytrid. These frogs are immune. I saw possible evidence of this in the Anza Borrego Desert State Park, where CA Chorus Frog tadpoles and metamorphs outnumbered Red-spotted Toad tadpoles about 99 to 1. I found no live toad metamorphs, only pools full of dead ones. This sighting was reported to Roland Knapp, who works with Mtn Yellow-legs in the Sierras; he wrote he would relay it to the USGS (pics may be seen on the main index of HumboldtHerps.com if you scroll down a bit.).

Will ramble again with you all soon. Hope to send the forum some new garter pics soon.

Steve