Breeding Mice

[GarterGeek]

I'm breeding pinkies (fuzzies to be more specific) for my snakes and I have a few questions:

1. Is it necessary to leave a couple pinkies for the female to raise in order for her to continue breeding?

Since the mice stink so badly, I have to keep them on my back porch, which means when it gets cold out I have to kill all of them. There isn't enough time for me to let the young ones mature and begin producing. So it would give me more work during the summer and make my job more heart-wrenching at the end of fall. I'm not really sure what I should do.:confused: I would prefer to take and freeze the whole litter but I don't know if this would stop the females from producing or cause them to kill their litters.

2. I have access to Ether, which I've found is a very humane way to put animals down. Would Ether, which evaporates quickly, remain in the lungs of a dead pinky or fuzzy? If it does remain in the lungs, how harmful would it be to a snake?

3. If Ether is not an option, what would be the most humane way of extermination? :( I need fuzzies so freezing is not an option.

Any advice would be appreciated. Thank You!

[guidofatherof5]

Very good question about the ether.
Can't help you but I'm sure you'll get some responses.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Using dry ice in a sealed container to make a carbon dioxide chamber... if you google it things should pop up. I would avoid ether... I am almost sure it would remain inside the dead animal and would probably be harmful to the snakes! Carbon dioxide is a totally normal waste product of an animal though and is harmless to the snakes who eat the mice.
I prefer to get things over with as quickly as possible and I use blunt force trauma, a swift whack to the back of the head or against a hard object is an instant kill. I would rather go that way than choke to death in a gas chamber!

[KITKAT]

I raise mice year round, and used to raise them for Ohio State University for student use. But I used to raise them seasonally as you are thinking of doing.


I'm breeding pinkies (fuzzies to be more specific) for my snakes and I have a few questions:

1. Is it necessary to leave a couple pinkies for the female to raise in order for her to continue breeding?

The females should continue to produce babies even when the entire litter is taken from her, but if this is done repeatedly, long term, she becomes more likely to eat them at birth. I generally harvest half the litter, and leave the rest of the litter for ten days, when I harvest half of what is left... then when the pups are about 20 days old, I harvest the rest. I have a friend who uses the 10 and 20 day old pups, and this gives me a chance to replace a mouse that is not producing, has an illness, or etc, with one of the pups.


Since the mice stink so badly, I have to keep them on my back porch, which means when it gets cold out I have to kill all of them. There isn't enough time for me to let the young ones mature and begin producing. So it would give me more work during the summer and make my job more heart-wrenching at the end of fall. I'm not really sure what I should do.:confused: I would prefer to take and freeze the whole litter but I don't know if this would stop the females from producing or cause them to kill their litters.

The key to odor control with mice is how often you change the substrate, and how many square inches you allow for each adult mouse. I have a 55 gallon tank with ten mice in it, and change it weekly. I use pine shavings that I purchase in bales at the Tractor Supply store. If you do have to leave them outdoors, they are best in a non-humid area that is shaded all the time. You also need to ensure that raccoons and other vermin cannot open the cage. In the fall, why not find a snake owner who has a boid or something like that, and give away the adult mice?


2. I have access to Ether, which I've found is a very humane way to put animals down. Would Ether, which evaporates quickly, remain in the lungs of a dead pinky or fuzzy? If it does remain in the lungs, how harmful would it be to a snake?

3. If Ether is not an option, what would be the most humane way of extermination? :( I need fuzzies so freezing is not an option.

WARNING... SQUEAMISH PEOPLE SHOULD STOP READING HERE.

Humane killing of mice up to the seven day old stage can be done in the freezer. At ten days, you should switch to cervical seperation, if you are not too squeamish to do it. Cervical seperation involves placing the baby mouse on a flat hard surface, place a pencil between the base of the skull and the shoulders, and push the pencil downward against the surface that the mouse is resting on, in a very rapid motion. The skull will seperate from the neck, the mouse will kick a couple of times, and be gone. The mouse will lose conciousness instantly, as long as the motion is quick and sudden.

The other method is a blow to the head, but in mice with a soft skull, this can be messy.

[GarterGeek]

Using dry ice in a sealed container to make a carbon dioxide chamber... if you google it things should pop up. I would avoid ether... I am almost sure it would remain inside the dead animal and would probably be harmful to the snakes! Carbon dioxide is a totally normal waste product of an animal though and is harmless to the snakes who eat the mice.
I prefer to get things over with as quickly as possible and I use blunt force trauma, a swift whack to the back of the head or against a hard object is an instant kill. I would rather go that way than choke to death in a gas chamber!

Thanks You!!! :)
I'm definitely not going to use Carbon Dioxide. Choking is a very nasty sensation. I liked Ether so much because it's an anaesthesia. Using an overdose causes the creature to just fall asleep...permanently. However, I don't want my snakes to fall asleep either.
I'll go for a whack to the head or cervical separation. I'll try both on the first litter to see what works best.

[GarterGeek]

I raise mice year round, and used to raise them for Ohio State University for student use. But I used to raise them seasonally as you are thinking of doing.



The females should continue to produce babies even when the entire litter is taken from her, but if this is done repeatedly, long term, she becomes more likely to eat them at birth. I generally harvest half the litter, and leave the rest of the litter for ten days, when I harvest half of what is left... then when the pups are about 20 days old, I harvest the rest. I have a friend who uses the 10 and 20 day old pups, and this gives me a chance to replace a mouse that is not producing, has an illness, or etc, with one of the pups.


So it would be smart for me to leave a pup or two for her to raise? How likely and commonplace is cannibalism? I don't know how much I really need to worry about it. :(



The key to odor control with mice is how often you change the substrate, and how many square inches you allow for each adult mouse. I have a 55 gallon tank with ten mice in it, and change it weekly. I use pine shavings that I purchase in bales at the Tractor Supply store. If you do have to leave them outdoors, they are best in a non-humid area that is shaded all the time. You also need to ensure that raccoons and other vermin cannot open the cage. In the fall, why not find a snake owner who has a boid or something like that, and give away the adult mice?


I have 4 mice in a medium tupper-ware container. I use newspaper bedding, which I change daily. I don't think it smells that bad, but I still live with my parents who aren't too keen about it. :rolleyes::D

I didn't think about giving away the adult mice! That's a great idea, I may even already know someone who could be interested. :)


WARNING... SQUEAMISH PEOPLE SHOULD STOP READING HERE.

Humane killing of mice up to the seven day old stage can be done in the freezer. At ten days, you should switch to cervical seperation, if you are not too squeamish to do it. Cervical seperation involves placing the baby mouse on a flat hard surface, place a pencil between the base of the skull and the shoulders, and push the pencil downward against the surface that the mouse is resting on, in a very rapid motion. The skull will seperate from the neck, the mouse will kick a couple of times, and be gone. The mouse will lose conciousness instantly, as long as the motion is quick and sudden.

The other method is a blow to the head, but in mice with a soft skull, this can be messy.

Cervical separation it is! I may try a blow just to see how it really works. I don't want to freeze because the fuzzies are larger and have some fur so their suffering would be prolonged somewhat.

Thank you for the great advice! It's such a great help. :D

[KITKAT]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/cervical_seperation.jpg

For humane killing of fuzzy stage baby mice. Once fur starts to grow, pups are starting to self regulate body temperature, and humane killing cannot be done by freezer.

Use of inhalent killing vapors, such as ether, chloroform, etc, are problematic as they may taint the mouse as a safe food source for reptiles.

Use of blunt force trauma on the skull of fuzzy mice is problematic due to the thinness of the skull.

Therefore, if done quickly, this is a humane method. Note that the force must be quick and must bring the pencil all the way down to meet the surface on which the mouse rests.

This manuver can also be done with the thumb (ie: no pencil involved), even on adult mice, but doing so efficiently and quickly takes practice.

[TheArtist]

lovely picture... As for your question on cannibalism, I worked in a petstore and have to say that it seemed very rare. in the whole year I was there I only once found 'baby parts' from a baby that had been consumed (for the most part), once I did find blood in the substrate so maybe twice but not much more than that. When snake people came in for pups we would usually only sell half the litter or make sure to leave the mom with one or two, but I never noticed cannibalism.

The key to making them less smelly is cleaning our the water and food bowls and the substrate often! Then the smell isn't very bad, defiantly bearable.

[GarterGeek]

lovely picture... As for your question on cannibalism, I worked in a petstore and have to say that it seemed very rare. in the whole year I was there I only once found 'baby parts' from a baby that had been consumed (for the most part), once I did find blood in the substrate so maybe twice but not much more than that. When snake people came in for pups we would usually only sell half the litter or make sure to leave the mom with one or two, but I never noticed cannibalism.

The key to making them less smelly is cleaning our the water and food bowls and the substrate often! Then the smell isn't very bad, defiantly bearable.

Thank you! I was really worried about that.:rolleyes:

I've heard that putting small amounts of vinegar in their water is supposed to tone down the smell of their urine...Have you had an experience with that? Is it true?

[TheArtist]

Hm i've never heard of that. If you took one mouse and separated it and gave it a try,I don't see a problem with that (separate just in case the mouse like dies or something from an unseen circumstance). Really never noticed the smell of urine to strong with the mice, only the rabbits.

How deep are the shavings your putting in? You may need to add more to absorb it better. I doubt your over crowding. Since we all know petstore crowding is just awful, i'll share this with you, Our tanks were MAYBE 20 gallon and we would have maybe 40 mice in the tank (with babies). The shavings were kept at about three-four inches thick and I never experienced a horrible odor. W used a metal lid that had holes in it on a glass aquarium.

[GarterGeek]

Hm i've never heard of that. If you took one mouse and separated it and gave it a try,I don't see a problem with that (separate just in case the mouse like dies or something from an unseen circumstance). Really never noticed the smell of urine to strong with the mice, only the rabbits.

How deep are the shavings your putting in? You may need to add more to absorb it better. I doubt your over crowding. Since we all know petstore crowding is just awful, i'll share this with you, Our tanks were MAYBE 20 gallon and we would have maybe 40 mice in the tank (with babies). The shavings were kept at about three-four inches thick and I never experienced a horrible odor. W used a metal lid that had holes in it on a glass aquarium.

Thank you! You've already been very informative and I appreciate it. :)

I've been using the vinegar, I don't know if it's working but I'm too scared to stop just in case it could get worse. :o It hasn't been causing any problems as far as I know.

I'm using shredded newspapers. I change the bedding everyday (unless there are newborns). I don't use a lot of paper and the mice often stack it all on ones side of the box. I keep them in a tupper ware (about 10gal) container with holes drilled all over the sides and lid. I only have four adult mice. I'll try using a thicker layer of newspaper.

I'm supplementing their diet with dog food and sometimes celery or lettuce, could this have a negative effect on the odor?

[TheArtist]

I could see dog food adding to the odor. Just thinking about a nutty-berry-few meats diet and a diet made of horse and cow parts, and having both consuming animals in my home (i don't think that sentence even made sense to me!) I can defiantly tell the difference in diet, but that may just be me. I dislike telling people to buy certain stuff from the petstore because it's so over priced but I've seen pet stores like Petsmart and Petco have sales on mouse food and a bag that could last you about two months selling for 3.95. Looking at it, it is a bit more expensive than probably a bag of dog food, but if you see it on sale, maybe try buying a little bag and see if the smell goes away more? Diet will affect smell, to what extent i'm not 100% sure, but i'd say it defiantly would affect it a bit.

Have you tried adding a little bit of papertowel in there to adsorb it extra? Thickening the substrate and adding a bit of paper towel may also help with the general smell.

If you manage to get everything balanced out right you may only need to change the substrate every two days. And there is no way four adults are over crowding a 10 gallon tank in my opinion, however i'm not a complete mouse expert, just sharing what I learned in my job :)

[KITKAT]

Newspapers are a very poor substrate for mice. The paper has less absorbancy and less oils to control odor, when compared to shavings. Newspaper, unless it is a product called "Yesterday's News" or similar, tends to stick together, which makes it get wet and smelly quickly. (see below)

This increases the odor. Try getting your pine shavings in a bale - a bale costs around $14, but lasts a LONG time unless you are producing lots of mice. If you are giving your mice adequate space per mouse in their enclosure, you can change shavings once a week without the odor being overwhelming.

Also, researchers have found that too much bedding actually increases odor and moisture. Less is more with mice, because the mouse likes to dig around in the bedding, and the action of them doing that will cause evaporation, which dries the bedding and allows it to last longer. Bedding that is too deep cannot be stirred around by the mouse, and you end up with wet, stinky corners in the enclosure.

If you want to feed mouse chow (purina) you will have to special order it, but it is the best food for mice, hands down. I don't use it, because I am going for cheap. Grocery store dog foods that are extremely low in cost and lower in protein, with corn as the first ingredient, is my staple food, with wild bird seed added. My mice also get apple cores and skins, and other garden produce occasionally... but not too much, or stools are loose!

[GarterGeek]

I could see dog food adding to the odor. Just thinking about a nutty-berry-few meats diet and a diet made of horse and cow parts, and having both consuming animals in my home (i don't think that sentence even made sense to me!) I can defiantly tell the difference in diet, but that may just be me. I dislike telling people to buy certain stuff from the petstore because it's so over priced but I've seen pet stores like Petsmart and Petco have sales on mouse food and a bag that could last you about two months selling for 3.95. Looking at it, it is a bit more expensive than probably a bag of dog food, but if you see it on sale, maybe try buying a little bag and see if the smell goes away more? Diet will affect smell, to what extent i'm not 100% sure, but i'd say it defiantly would affect it a bit.

Have you tried adding a little bit of papertowel in there to adsorb it extra? Thickening the substrate and adding a bit of paper towel may also help with the general smell.

If you manage to get everything balanced out right you may only need to change the substrate every two days. And there is no way four adults are over crowding a 10 gallon tank in my opinion, however i'm not a complete mouse expert, just sharing what I learned in my job :)


Based on your advice, I tried adding more bedding and it worked!!:D The smell has lessened by a noticeable amount. Prior, I had been using just enough so that the mice could create a little nest and remain comfortable. You were right, I need a more substrate. Thanks!!!

I'm sorry I wasn't clear. :o I use mouse food for the most part but add just a sprinkle of dog food on top. I want my mice to have a wide variety in their diet (better for the snake :)) so, I add about 4-5 kibbles to their food. What you said makes sense though, and I'll remember it. I'll add smaller amounts of dog food.

[GarterGeek]

Newspapers are a very poor substrate for mice. The paper has less absorbancy and less oils to control odor, when compared to shavings. Newspaper, unless it is a product called "Yesterday's News" or similar, tends to stick together, which makes it get wet and smelly quickly. (see below)

This increases the odor. Try getting your pine shavings in a bale - a bale costs around $14, but lasts a LONG time unless you are producing lots of mice. If you are giving your mice adequate space per mouse in their enclosure, you can change shavings once a week without the odor being overwhelming.

Also, researchers have found that too much bedding actually increases odor and moisture. Less is more with mice, because the mouse likes to dig around in the bedding, and the action of them doing that will cause evaporation, which dries the bedding and allows it to last longer. Bedding that is too deep cannot be stirred around by the mouse, and you end up with wet, stinky corners in the enclosure.

If you want to feed mouse chow (purina) you will have to special order it, but it is the best food for mice, hands down. I don't use it, because I am going for cheap. Grocery store dog foods that are extremely low in cost and lower in protein, with corn as the first ingredient, is my staple food, with wild bird seed added. My mice also get apple cores and skins, and other garden produce occasionally... but not too much, or stools are loose!

Hmmm, I was wondering whether newspapers were the best substrate. I guess you've answered that for me!! I'll stick with newspapers until I expand more. It's cheaper. :rolleyes:

I thought about using wild bird seed but was worried about the bug-killer they put in it. Is this a real concern?

[KITKAT]

I thought about using wild bird seed but was worried about the bug-killer they put in it. Is this a real concern?

Well, so far I have not had a problem. I have two aquaria full of breeding mice. The 55 gal. colony is going great. The 20 high colony keeps getting tumors... but this is a different color strain, and I already know that they are prone to fertility problems, etc... so the tumors showing up does not really surprise me.

So I don't think the tumors are due to chemicals in the food... since the 55 colony does not have these problems and eats the same thing.