Flame genetics

[Zephyr]

I think they're more complex than was previously thought.
For example, Tina's babies were the product of a "True" flame crossed with a North-eastern morph eastern garter snake. The babies are obviously a mix of pure flames and partial flames. This leads me to think that the two of these genetic traits are the same, but their intensity is dictated by genetics. However, their concentration between the lateral scales and on the scales themselves may be a different gene.
I have seen this North-eastern morph in 3 colors; red (flame), orange (???), and yellow (???). The last of which may only be slightly noticeable on most snakes. So, hypothetically, crossing a "true" flame with one of these orange or yellow animals should provide a yellow (or orange) colored snake, such as Don's orange eastern.
Is there anyone out there currently breeding for these yellow/orange flames?
Any other comments on the statements above?

[charles parenteau]

Here in Quebec!!We found orange-high red -yellow garter in the same population -
First high red specimen are born as orange and become apple red as adult
3rd summer..
When you see an adult orange flame 50/100 chance that is born as regular yellow and become more and more orange as they grow..each shed bring more orange or red...

THe intensify of the erythristic pigment undergoes a significant ontogenic increase over at least the first 2 years of life*DRPhil Blais comment virium issue volume 9 number 6*

few years ago I kept a very high yellow wc female cross with an unknown male ...from one of my best flame spot ...50/100 of her babies with amall amont of orange.cross 2 yellow specimen from this location I think you will have few babies with orange...
Crossing flame from one location with a garter from other spot ...that make a difference , the gene are weakened...by experience that make poor flame with only red or orange pigment between scales...

My friend cross high yellow specimen with some garter with poor red or orange ... high yellow garter x poor red makes high orange specimen or at least make the red more apple red !what happen in wild population and what happen with specimen in captive breeding are not the same...
I think most of Quebec garter snake population haves genes for red pigment.

GEne are stronger inner polpulation.the true* apple red flame as you know are very very rare in wild...I caught specimen with small amount of red in each spot but flame population consist mainly of orange .
Since my last 15 years in search for flame I caught only 4 with full face red or orange..
As far as I remember,this garter snake is the most beautiful male I ever caught ...hes is orange or red I dont know ..at this location were i found him most flame are orange red or red orange???I think yellow+red =orange...Im still looking for high red in this spot!

I didnt answer your question,but this is something i still try to understand!
I will post more pictures on other post.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-20090138.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-20090147.jpg

[Zephyr]

Great description! :D
However, the thing I'm wondering is if the color between the scales is on the same gene as color on the scales.

[Jeff B]

The flame morph is likely a polygenetic trait, which means that the phenotype (apperance) is an assemblance of multiple or many genes to create the flame look. This explains the high variability in offsping siblings, as variable amounts of the group of genes are passed on to each individual snake. As opposed to the single point, single gene (on/off switch) genes such as the recessive genes like albino and anerythristic that we are all familiar with and how it takes one copy of the gene from both parents (two copies of the gene in the offspring) to switch it "on", and either it has it or it doesn't. The fact that a flame can be bred to a normal and produce roughly half of the offspring with some degree of flame characteristic, says the the flame genes as a group have a dominant effect or are dominant in relation to the wild type color on the sides.
Hope this "sheds" some light and makes sense.
Jeff

[charles parenteau]

I agree,a lot of sense...tanks alot.Honestly I learn something I have experience with garter snake but genetic is another thing.:)
I have many flame from different location .next year most of them will be adult...I want to bred garter from the same location together ,that why Im going to each spot to complete my pairs...

At one location 1/3 of garter snake are very red or orange.Me and my friend have lots of futur breeding pair and we expect more from them than any other flame from anywhere else...He told me that inside this population the red pigment is very strong and most snake have the gene ...I dont want to brake the chain within this population.each year we will return our extra babie at this spot.

By experience my friend told me that we should have freak such as crimson garter .
You never know what to expect from 2 wild flame garter that why I love them so much.
Hopefully we will take regular flame to a step further!only because of the good genetic!!!
By the way this is a crimson garter snake on the top.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/blaisflameetcdusanctuaire.jpg

[Jeff B]

Those crimson flames from your locality are absolutely fantastic looking!!!
They look to have the red pigment more evenly dispersed more like a typical "erythristic", rather than just primarily on the sides like the "flames" in typically circulating in the USA . Also it is a more "crimson" red than the "orangish red" of the typical USA circulating flame. That should make for an excellent cross, hopefully strong and robust with good consistant bright red color all over body hopefully.
While good intentioned, be very cautious of what babies you release back into the wild, especially if they have blood from other locality mixed in, or where housed in captivity with other localities (could pick up other normal flora baceria that is harmless to one population, but lethal to another, ect, ect. pathogenic possiblities) it could have a negative or very harmful impact to your local wild population.
What a super great project.
I would be very interested to aquire any results that you wish or need to part with, if possible.

[Zephyr]

Also... I think the color on the scales is controlled and variable to a different set of genes. Last year I found an erythristic snake who lacked red between its scales, yet on its scales it was completely red.

[charles parenteau]

I realease babies at two locations ...both will be destroy in few years!if we are lucky...all my garter snake came from Motreal area before we divide de land they were a single population ...now we found garter snake in isolated population all around Montreal,Laval,Laprairie QC...

I don't release animal from Drummondville at laprairie for example.
Most of my spot are small enough,take 2-3 hours per location to make a complete tour.The final countdown is coming soon anyway :(..

I don't sell garter snake ..so I have lot of extra babies not as beautiful as you see on the market but very nice indeed.What can I do???

I try to be good but but your absolutely right about negative impact ,will see in futur.I begin to distress about one location in particularly a golf course is coming someday I never know to expect when Im going there.

[Zephyr]

I see your point, Charles.
I guess rally up the nicest looking snakes when go to the locations that will soon be gone. ):
Also, do you have any pics of your high yellows/oranges?

[charles parenteau]

this is a photo of their mother ...I will take pictures in few minutes!I release her at same spot with all her babies ,I keep 2 babies from her...
total mess in the cage after eating frogs!at this location many 3 strippes oranges.http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin20080081.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-juin20080089.jpg

[Zephyr]

Brilliant! Just like Don's orange female!

Okay, I'm ready to try this; any one out there got a spare flame male who will be ready to mate next spring?

[charles parenteau]

Cant take a good picture of my little female and her sister gonna shed soon so ugly right now!I took 31 bad pictures in a row before mistaken something on my friend camra something happen I no image at all !!not to bad with my 10 thumbs!(:
gonna show you pictures from feb and one take few weeks ago also bad...
more orange coming.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fevrier090138.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fevrier090122.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fevrier090135.jpg

[charles parenteau]

Two sister born mid agust of summer 2008...her mom is from the same ditch were i caught the beautiful male on first picture...on road 235 in Monteregie Qc.

these are male from Laval Qc.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-20090150.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-2009o153.jpg

[drache]

those orange yellow ones are lovely
it's such as warm sunny colour
like a sunset glow

[charles parenteau]

These are the most beautiful male caught by me and my partner...the one with full face is from St-hyacinthe Qc the 2 red from Lapraire QC the female is from Laprairie. I take wc male from this year to my friend ,In april to breed my female but I didnt see any copulation.
She big by now i cross my finger. Now I see my male is more orange than red. need few garter to see difference between them ..

When flame garter start over 15 years ago .the male that Phil Blais start with were not as nice as they are.NOw I need 2 wc female ,I will try to pick up the same as last year as soon as the temperature is good im going right there!

2 location 30km from each other or so.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-20090127.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-20090133.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-2009o134.jpg

[Zephyr]

How beautiful!
You're definitely the flame master. :P

[Jeff B]

You know Charles, I see where you are coming from now, unfortunately habitat distruction is the biggest threat to populations of wildlife. What we do as hobbiest and the collecting we do for captive breeding has infinitesimal impact compared to the destruction from developement of land, which really can't be stopped without controlling the human population and that is a whole "nother' topic. I have seen some of the best wildlife habitate in my area destroyed to make golf courses, and residential, the residential is in some way needed.
With that is mind I hope you will be able to relocate populations nearby, seems like as worthy an endeavor as any.
Unfortunately captive breeding is in fact the only hope for the survival of some species or subspecies at this point.
Best of luck my friend.

[guidofatherof5]

Awesome looking snakes.

[charles parenteau]

here in quebec the law say 10 thamnophis sirtalis sirtalis in allowed.from wild .

[snakeman]

I am posting some pics to get this thread back on track.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/rsz_dsc01912.jpg

[snakeman]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/rsz_dsc01926.jpg

[ssssnakeluvr]

Sweet looking snakes!!!!!

[snakeman]

Thanks!I can't take pics indoors worth a crap.They always come out really off color.The natural light makes them look like they do in person.

[snakeman]

That is a sweet snake!I am trying to get the canadian blood back in my flame line.I mated my male het albino with the canadian orange I got from Don..She laid jelly beans this year though.

Two sister born mid agust of summer 2008...her mom is from the same ditch were i caught the beautiful male on first picture...on road 235 in Monteregie Qc.

these are male from Laval Qc.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-20090150.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-2009o153.jpg

[Zephyr]

Any one else notice how the red doesn't seem to extend onto the dorsal scales on the Canadian flames?

[charles parenteau]

Tom I agree its so hard to do good picture inside that show the real color or the garter...I do bad pictures outside too !
Those garter with vertebral strippes are from the wild some pictures date from over 10 years from now.my scan dont work at all i have few more.

Its raining from over 7 days now ..Im off job for few weeks so i herping time is begining for Charlo!:) And i broke my friend camera,Im so happy
In one small picture you see a girlfriend with my living melanistic ,huge!

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/divers.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/3strippes98.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fo235008.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fo235007.jpg

[charles parenteau]

female and male from the same ditch !next to 235 rd between Drummondville and Montreal.at this location I miss few 3 full strippes orange-red .
Its hard to hunt at this spot many way to escape before a can reach the snake.the landscape play in snake favor...
THis female on the bleu carpet died because of an abcess ,This was the only wild garter ive seen with an abcess! it burst, she hit the point of no return so we killed her...
the little male have the 1/4 of his vertebral strippe with red.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/FORTE235008.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/mai-20090147.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fo2350039.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/fo2350048.jpg

[MoJo]

I grew up in Montreal, not far from downtown and I never saw any snakes! Boy I wish when I lived there I was into snakes. Finding those beauties in the wild would be such a thrill!

[charles parenteau]

all around Montreal and some small fragment of population in the city.

[drache]

the ones with the more red or orange dorsal stripes are so cool looking
my flame has a touch of it at the neck, but some of yours have wonderful deep tones

[charles parenteau]

Im going herping It 11 celcius ,very windy anf its been raining for 8 days in a row i take aguess a least gonna send you pictures of the location.

[charles parenteau]

A pictures of my little wc female ,caught as a baby in september 2007.
More apple red . I love her yellow green vertebral strippe.
photo of her in dec 2007 more orange when young.
with my new camera ,im not a better photoghraphe because of that!
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/1dec07013.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/wc3shedold0020.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/P1000037.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/P1000135.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/P1000136.jpg

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow beautiful!

[kjell]

nice flames photos, i noticed also that my flame grew more red in the passed year.

[charles parenteau]

The female above shed this morning.The vertebral strippe is getting green.
I definitely match her with a male with also the vertebral strippe green.
They both shed this morning will take pictures outdoor if its stop raining!
KJell show us pictures of your flame if you want we love pictures!

[charles parenteau]

I went to and old spot earlier this week ! Didn't go there for a while because construction is begin ,there is no more water in the small creek ,drain because they dig ditch.Steet are cover with gravel...
NO chance to find garter there i though ,No more basking area for gravid female ,din't see any frog or toad...But I took a walk next to the only untouch area ,big like tenis court and i found something !!!
Under a debris I found a little female born last year ,with bleu eyes and very muddy ,I saw a bit of orange .I bring her home ,to see what she look like after shedding.I was bright...
her vertebral strippe is sharp and high green ,its a normal orange flame,but the back ground is also green ,the checkered board is reddish.MY battery died in my camera,will take more pictures as soon as possible.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/P1000805.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/P1000806.jpg
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/P1000807.jpg

[drache]

that is some amazing colour
what a great find

[charles parenteau]

Usually the one with green vertebral strippes have brown or black back ground.As adult its a beautiful contrast ,green and orange.This is the second time I caught an orange eastern with this amount of green .
This pictures show another one like her ,pictures over 10 years ago.
I know pictures are bad but look the difference between both garter.2 pictures below.at right in the branche black spot on green back ground ,green head.I just expect something like that as adult.

http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/blaisflameetcdusanctuaire.jpg