Genetics

[poissonguppy]

So I was reading the really long discussion when Tina accidentally bred two garters.

I'm a little new so I'm not really understanding. Where's the dividing line between "okay" breedings and "not okay" breedings? Aren't a lot of hybrid garters the result of mixing together breeds? You don't find a lot of the morphs in the wild.

Thanks for the help.

[prattypus]

Not a breeder or a Jurassic Park genetist, and please correct me if I am wrong, but the morphs are various traits within a species or subspecies- like hair color, eye color, and all that jazz in humans.

So an albino plains bred with a normal plains isn't a hybrid. But a red sided that intergrades with a puget sound IS a hybrid.

[poissonguppy]

Ok, so I get that hybrids and morphs aren't synonymous. My bad...


But a red sided that intergrades with a puget sound IS a hybrid.

But would that be "okay" to do, or would that be messing too much with the gene pool?

[Stefan-A]

I'm a little new so I'm not really understanding. Where's the dividing line between "okay" breedings and "not okay" breedings?
That dividing line is between the ears of each person. There are people who'll breed anything with anything, there are people who won't breed snakes unless they belong to the same population and then there's every type in between. I, personally, am sort of a purist when it comes to these things and I prefer (although I don't require) that snakes come from the same population.



Aren't a lot of hybrid garters the result of mixing together breeds? When it comes to garters, there are no breeds. The relevant terms are species, subspecies, localities and morphs (shout if you can think of another).

Mixing species results in a hybrid.

Mixing subspecies results in an intergrade, which is an intraspecific ("within the species") hybrid, although the term "intergrade" should in my opinion only be applied to a mix that has occurred in the wild (as opposed to captivity) in an area where this frequently happens. That means, in an area where two subspecies naturally meet. Not captivity, where they've been placed together. That's because "intergrade" has a slightly different connotation, because it describes a phenomenon that occurs where two closely related taxa meet. With captive animals , I'd personally prefer that people would call them hybrids, because that's what they are, regardless of whether or not they also occur under some circumstances in the wild. Not confusing enough? :D

Localities are what they sound like. Representatives from a certain geographical area, which could be as large as a country or as small as a village.

Morphs are different varieties within a taxon or a population. A "Nebraska albino Thamnophis radix" is an example of most of these things combined. Currently T. radix doesn't have any subspecies, but it is a distinct species, that shouldn't be mixed with T. sirtalis, for example. It is also a locality, in that it originates from Nebraska. The morph is "albino". In this particular case, the locality is of special importance, because the Nebraska albino is not "compatible" with the Iowa albino morph of the same species, because the mutation that causes albinism in them occur in different genes, so mixing them won't produce more albinos.


You don't find a lot of the morphs in the wild.
That's sort of true. Many morphs don't do well in the wild, but morphs can also simply be slightly lighter or darker than usual, or they can be melanistic. It's not always a detriment. But the important thing to understand, is that they all CAN occur in the wild, no matter how improbable it seems. That an anerythristic and an amelanistic garter would meet in the wild and produce offspring, is very unlikely, but there is no natural law that would actually prevent it.

Anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[prattypus]

See, that's a heckuva lot more educated than my stab at it- Nicely stated Stefan

[poissonguppy]

I, personally, am sort of a purist when it comes to these things and I prefer (although I don't require) that snakes come from the same population.

What do you mean same population?

Haha, a little overload of info/vocabulary. But, I think I'm understanding a little bit of it. I'm not very strong in the basic genetics, so maybe I need a little more explanation... Sorry. :o

Like in dogs, a golden retriever and a rottweiler are the same species, but different breeds. So in the equivalent of garters, a T. radix and a T. sirtalis are the same species but different subspecies?

Do albino garters occur naturally in the wild? And how do you know which garters bred would produce albino's or not? (I'm just using albino as an example...)


In this particular case, the locality is of special importance, because the Nebraska albino is not "compatible" with the Iowa albino morph of the same species, because the mutation that causes albinism in them occur in different genes, so mixing them won't produce more albinos.


How do you know that they aren't compatible?

[Stefan-A]

What do you mean same population?
A biological population, i.e. a collection of organisms within a specific geographical area.


Haha, a little overload of info/vocabulary. But, I think I'm understanding a little bit of it. I'm not very strong in the basic genetics, so maybe I need a little more explanation... Sorry. :o No need to apologize, we've all been there and we've never actually left. ;)


Like in dogs, a golden retriever and a rottweiler are the same species, but different breeds. So in the equivalent of garters, a T. radix and a T. sirtalis are the same species but different subspecies?"Morph" is the closest equivalent there is to a dog breed, but it's not quite the same. I'd have to do a taxonomy thread to explain it thoroughly (it has crossed my mind a few times), but Thamnophis is the genus and includes several species. Each species consists of smaller units, subspecies. The point of this system is to illustrate how animals are related to each other.


Do albino garters occur naturally in the wild?Occasionally. What you do, is you catch them, breed them with a normal-coloured garter and then you breed the offspring (which in this case would be all normal-coloured) back to either the albino parent or each other to make that albino trait visible.


And how do you know which garters bred would produce albino's or not? (I'm just using albino as an example...) How do you know that they aren't compatible?You breed two albino garters and they only produce normal-coloured offspring. If it was the same gene, some would be normal-coloured and some would be albinos.

[poissonguppy]

Thanks everyone! You cleared up a lot for me.

I think I understand a little more about species and the like.

Stefan, if you do end up writing a thread about it, I'd read it!

[prattypus]

I'll ask this now, since I've wondered about it, but never wanted to start a thread about it. How big of a concern is inbreeding? If you breed the offspring back to their parents, or other siblings- how high is the risk of birth defects, and the like?

[Stefan-A]

I'd better let the actual breeders answer that question. :D

It varies, though. You can do it for a few generations without any issues, but eventually, it's going to start reducing the viability of the offspring and cause abnormally high rates of defects and stillborn, reduced life expectancy, weaker immune systems, smaller and weaker offspring and various hereditary problems. Dog breeds have their typical health problems and so will different morphs have, eventually. But this is just a general answer.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'll ask this now, since I've wondered about it, but never wanted to start a thread about it. How big of a concern is inbreeding? If you breed the offspring back to their parents, or other siblings- how high is the risk of birth defects, and the like?

Basically,

all genetic mutation color morphs, such as albinos, anerythristics, axanthics, hypo's, erythristics and all those others came, at some point, from the wild. The original snakes that are found are collected and kept, and then bred to make more of the color morph. I myself own three color morph animals collected directly from the wild, one of which is my Albino Dekay's Brown snake, which as of now is the only albino specimen in captivity (to our knowledge) and the other two are my Hypo eastern and a female flame eastern, both of which I caught myself. I haven't found any albino's yet... but with my luck... I'll keep my fingers crossed!

[zooplan]

You breed two albino garters and they only produce normal-coloured offspring. If it was the same gene, some would be normal-coloured and some would be albinos.

This is wrong:
If you breed two albinos of the same gene together= all offspring will be albino.

[Stefan-A]

This is wrong:
If you breed two albinos of the same gene together= all offspring will be albino.
Thank you for the correction. I thought about checking that before posting it, but I was far too lazy, so I got it confused with what happens when you breed hets. Thanks again.

[poissonguppy]

This is wrong:
If you breed two albinos of the same gene together= all offspring will be albino.

But, if you bred two garters that have the recessive trait for albinism, then their babies would be both normal and albino... right? I'm thinking punnett square, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Quibble]

But, if you bred two garters that have the recessive trait for albinism, then their babies would be both normal and albino... right? I'm thinking punnett square, but maybe I'm wrong.

I believe if they both had one recessive gene, then there's a 1/4 chance for albinos, 3/4 chance for normal but only 1/4 chance they will be normal and not carry the recessive trait.

correct? ish?

[Stefan-A]

Correct, I think. Two hets should produce those ratios.

[k2l3d4]

Okkkk.... you all are really confusing me with all of the technical terms that comes with the breeding of snakes..... but in all of this I have a question... I was on another snake forum and had asked a question when I found out that my Albino Checkered was in all actuality a male snake instead of a female like i thought.. obviously I found out because he was breeding with the normal colored Checkered female that I have.. when I asked what colors I could expect any babies to be from them I was told that the most likely would be green like the mother, but such breeding of an Albino and a Green checkered was "looked down on" by breeders because the babies would be "mutts" .... I was quite disheartened by such a response and would like your guys's opinion on such a thing.

Kady

[Stefan-A]

Okkkk.... you all are really confusing me with all of the technical terms that comes with the breeding of snakes..... but in all of this I have a question... I was on another snake forum and had asked a question when I found out that my Albino Checkered was in all actuality a male snake instead of a female like i thought.. obviously I found out because he was breeding with the normal colored Checkered female that I have.. when I asked what colors I could expect any babies to be from them I was told that the most likely would be green like the mother, but such breeding of an Albino and a Green checkered was "looked down on" by breeders because the babies would be "mutts" .... I was quite disheartened by such a response and would like your guys's opinion on such a thing.

Kady
Well, it seems to me at least that the person who said that doesn't know what the hell he/she is talking about. (could you PM me the link, I'm always curious about what advice people give regarding garters on other forums) The only "mutts" one could get from a mating of two snakes, are hybrids and that requires that the snakes are of different species or subspecies. You do have two individuals of the same species and subspecies, it seems. The only difference is that at least one of them carries the gene for albinism. Those offspring should all be normal looking (unless the mother is heterozygous for albinism), but they should all be heterozygous for albinism. So your two snakes don't produce more albinos, big deal. Their offspring will.

Zygosity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zygosity#Heterozygous)
Punnett square - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square)

[zooplan]

To say it the easy way:
All offspring will be heterozygous!
And your breed will enlarge the genpool of
´marcianus´ ablino strain.

[k2l3d4]

Garter and Water Snakes - www.ReptileForums.com (http://www.reptileforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=54) here is the link into the other site that I was at that really does not give a whole lot on garters.....

One guy tells me this on his post:
tricksterpup (http://www.reptileforums.com/forums/member.php?u=14352) http://www.reptileforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 563


I always recommend keeping your snakes in separate containers. Its safer that way. Snakes do not need to be kept together and they do not get lonely.

If money is the problem, just go out to wallmart and buy a Sterlilte clip on top 15 qt tub. This would be perfect for your pet until you pick up a new setup. They run any where from $3-4.


Here is an example on how I keep one of mine.
they are clear enough for you to see your snake and for them to see you. Trust me, this come comes right out when I am around and comes straight to the front.. thinks its feeding time.

http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j82/iguanajim/Gartersnake/GEDC0644.jpg
__________________


I love the fact that this person tells me that they do not get lonely...... I find my lady and gentleman in the same cubby even though I have two there on the warm side... not like they are going for warmth.

The other person that was talking to me: Aeries (http://www.reptileforums.com/forums/member.php?u=31373) http://www.reptileforums.com/forums/images/statusicon/user_online.gif
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 175


see how the tails are wrapping? Looks like they've already bred. This can be really detrimental to a snake that's too young. I don't know too much about garter's in particular, but they do give live birth.

I am not sure if that is true, but I do not see them being able to get pregnant before their bodies are able to handle it.
The other part about the "mutts" was an older post that is no longer on the site.

[k2l3d4]

Oh yeah... and where would the heater be on a plastic tub?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm not sure about all that but the people over there sure don't have a clue about garter snakes! :rolleyes:

[k2l3d4]

I'm not sure about all that but the people over there sure don't have a clue about garter snakes! :rolleyes:

Yeah.. .I found you guys on this site and have never returned to the other site;) I love it hear... you all have answered my questions, and I never feel like an idiot for asking you all.... Thank you for making a newbie feel welcome and included.... Now what am I going to do if Hudina is pregnant? whoops:eek:

[Stefan-A]

I don't see anything terribly wrong there, to be honest. Garters really don't get lonely and don't need to be kept together. It's of course convenient that they can be kept together more readily than most other snakes, but it's not necessary for their sake. There are a couple of situations where separating the snakes is better.

However, it seems to me that the person who wrote that part was taking something that's true for most snakes and applying it to one group that it isn't entirely true for.

That thing about being too young to breed, may well be true. The larger the individual, the safer it should be for it to give birth or lay eggs. I've also read a few times that breeding them too young will stunt their growth.

[k2l3d4]

I did not know that there growth could be stunted by giving birth too young... that sounds so odd. And as far as keeping the snakes seperate.... I have a hard time on that one, mainly due to the thought that I see them go their seperate ways for all day, but come evening both of my snakes can be found together, just about every night. and it is not out of neccessity, since the tank is warm enough and has ample hiding spots. I personally do not think that the snakes are solitary animals as I have always been told growing up, and it is not only my garters that i have seen like this, but my boyfriends ball pythons act like this every now and then, too.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't see anything terribly wrong there, to be honest. Garters really don't get lonely and don't need to be kept together. It's of course convenient that they can be kept together more readily than most other snakes, but it's not necessary for their sake. There are a couple of situations where separating the snakes is better.

However, it seems to me that the person who wrote that part was taking something that's true for most snakes and applying it to one group that it isn't entirely true for.

That thing about being too young to breed, may well be true. The larger the individual, the safer it should be for it to give birth or lay eggs. I've also read a few times that breeding them too young will stunt their growth.

well, there's nothing wrong there, but you can still just tell that they are not entirely sure of what they are talking about and it just annoys me when people who own one garter snake are instantly an expert, kind of like that guy i talked to at the show (see shunned at the show thread) :o

as for the growth stunting... I heard that too, and I do believe there is a such thing as being too young/small to breed even if their body physically makes eggs. A female bred too small has a huge, huge risk of eggbinding. As for the growth stunting, when I was stupid, and kept my corns together and they bred and she was still too young in my opinion... for a while after laying her eggs she was considerably smaller than the male. But now a year has gone by, I fed her well to make up for that and she has surpassed the male in size and weight and is now large enough to comfortably carry a clutch. And indeed... she is gravid this year!:D So, maybe sometimes it will stunt their growth but luckily at least in this case, that did not happen :eek:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I did not know that there growth could be stunted by giving birth too young... that sounds so odd. And as far as keeping the snakes seperate.... I have a hard time on that one, mainly due to the thought that I see them go their seperate ways for all day, but come evening both of my snakes can be found together, just about every night. and it is not out of neccessity, since the tank is warm enough and has ample hiding spots. I personally do not think that the snakes are solitary animals as I have always been told growing up, and it is not only my garters that i have seen like this, but my boyfriends ball pythons act like this every now and then, too.
well, most snakes, including ball pythons are solitary animals and should have their own space. But I strongly feel that garters are semi-social in nature just by observing them in their vivs and in the wild. Like you, my garters have plenty of options as far as hiding places and places to hang out, even multiple of the same hide items in some cages (like cardboard tubes). And since much of my snakeroom is simply a constantly maintained temperature of around 80 during the day, one cardboard tube is no warmer than the other, and yet two or three snakes will still choose the same tube even if there are two side by side. And it's the same deal when I am observing them in the wild, you flip over a large piece of debris, and 3 or 4 garters are huddled all together under it. If you are walking along the edge of tall grass at daybreak, all the sudden you often come across a "pile" of garter snakes all sunning in the low grass... there is plenty of grass, yet they still choose to stick together!

[Stefan-A]

well, there's nothing wrong there, but you can still just tell that they are not entirely sure of what they are talking about and it just annoys me when people who own one garter snake are instantly an expert, kind of like that guy i talked to at the show (see shunned at the show thread) :o
I have slightly mixed feelings about that. That's something that works both ways. Some people with one snake behave like "instant experts", but I have also met a lot of people who seem to believe that a large collection makes them experts on everything. I've had a lot of questionable claims come from people who have kept snakes for several decades and have collections of several dozen snakes, but who have never actually kept garters. I've even heard some pretty astonishing nonsense come from people who have kept these animals for a long time. On the other hand, I've seen very young people with an impressive amount of knowledge about garters. I don't know if anybody's really noticed, but I try to show it when I'm unsure.

I think it's important to not be fooled into believing what people say just because they happen to have a high profile in some circles (moderator on a forum or high post count, lots of subscriptions on YT, face on TV etc) or because he's likable. The claims that people make should be judged on their own merits, regardless of the source.


as for the growth stunting... I heard that too, and I do believe there is a such thing as being too young/small to breed even if their body physically makes eggs. A female bred too small has a huge, huge risk of eggbinding. As for the growth stunting, when I was stupid, and kept my corns together and they bred and she was still too young in my opinion... for a while after laying her eggs she was considerably smaller than the male. But now a year has gone by, I fed her well to make up for that and she has surpassed the male in size and weight and is now large enough to comfortably carry a clutch. And indeed... she is gravid this year!:D So, maybe sometimes it will stunt their growth but luckily at least in this case, that did not happen :eek:It's great to hear this type of personal experiences. I feel I learn a lot more from them, than from simple claims that it's either true or false.

[k2l3d4]

well, most snakes, including ball pythons are solitary animals and should have their own space. But I strongly feel that garters are semi-social in nature just by observing them in their vivs and in the wild. Like you, my garters have plenty of options as far as hiding places and places to hang out, even multiple of the same hide items in some cages (like cardboard tubes). And since much of my snakeroom is simply a constantly maintained temperature of around 80 during the day, one cardboard tube is no warmer than the other, and yet two or three snakes will still choose the same tube even if there are two side by side. And it's the same deal when I am observing them in the wild, you flip over a large piece of debris, and 3 or 4 garters are huddled all together under it. If you are walking along the edge of tall grass at daybreak, all the sudden you often come across a "pile" of garter snakes all sunning in the low grass... there is plenty of grass, yet they still choose to stick together!

And the biggest question that I would have then is.... if they are solitary animals, then why are they so often together?

[Stefan-A]

And the biggest question that I would have then is.... if they are solitary animals, then why are they so often together?
Because they benefit from it in some way, but it may also be coincidental.

It may improve their chances of survival if they are exposed to a predator compared to a situation where they can be picked off one at a time, for example. Or it may be a case of males deliberately seeking the company of a female, even outside of mating season.

Or it may be a question of something like them having similar needs at the moment, when it comes to temperature, for example. Especially in captivity, where you have a very limited number of hides, limited space and a clearly defined area intended for basking. My own snakes, however, are rarely found together. The ones that ever were found in the same spot fairly consistently, were a parietalis couple. The others seem to ignore each other completely.

The question is, why would they enjoy each other's company? They don't interact in any way, except during mating season and then they do definitely seek each other out for that one obvious reason.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I believe that possibly, garters may be exhibiting the "safety in numbers" technique that many prey animals, like minnows, tend to use to reduce the chance that one may be eaten by hanging around others, hoping that they get eaten instead! I dunno, it's just a guess! i know they don't enjoy one another, that's definitely not why they do it. But it must benefit them somehow and this theory is my strongest suspicion! Who knows?! They don't feel joy. I jokingly say they cuddle at times, but I hate to break it to everyone, snakes don't cuddle. They don't love us, or each other, even if they are brother and sister and have been together forever. They could not care less about each other. They simply know that food comes from us, and choosing the same hide, especially with a hide-loving snake like a ball python, often means that this is the best choice to their liking, and they are both competing for the best spot.