Graphic: Is an all rodent diet really ideal?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Here's the story. I woke up yesterday morning to turn the snake lights on. I noticed my male hypo water snake in the pond. Thinking nothing, I left for work. When I returned home... I noticed he was STILL in th pond, in the exact same position. He was curled in a U with his head resting on a rock out of the water. Little did I know... he was dead!!! I never would have though in a million years he would be dead, but he was!!! He looked perfectly alive and alert. Anyways... I got this snake from Scott Felzer at the daytona show last august. Shortly after checking him out in the truck I noticed a part of his abdomen was rather swollen and puffy. Very soft to the touch. I was worried, so i had the vet check him out and the vet said it was just some fatty tissue buildup. I know Scott feeds pretty much all rodents and that this snake was eating them. I switched him onto a diet of fish, with only the occasional rodent... which he grew less and less fond of as he realized how much he likes fish. The puffy spot never really went away, it got a bit smaller because he trimmed down once he started eating fish. But it was still there ever after almost 9 months. He stopped eating 3 weeks ago before I found him dead yesterday. I was too curious to resist opening him up to finally find out for sure what the heck that bulge was.

Indeed, this does appear to be fatty tissue, but there is WAY more of it than any snake should have, especially in the area of the bulge. I was very surprised to see that it extended further than just the bulging spot. It was wrapped and entangled all around the organs and i had to move it aside to see any of them.

In short, I have always worried that an all rodent diet is too fatty and rich for snakes that normally feed almost exclusively on aquatic and invertebrate prey. Now, opening up this snake pretty much confirms it, at least for me. I know that many many of these snakes are seemingly doing fine on an all rodent diet, but i think this here is an example of why rodents are not always the optimal prey item.

Scott, this is in NO way directed at you or criticizing your husbandry. You raise hundreds of snakes each year and produce some of the best animals out there. You do a great job with your snakes and you are a master of breeding thamnophis. I will probably buy from you every single year, for... ever! I have garters/water snakes myself that once ate rodents only and none of them seem to be any worse for wear.

But, this snake is an example of why I strongly feel that a highly varied diet with rodents only as a portion of it is best. I am not saying that the rodents did it for sure either, this could be some kind of tumor, or hormone malfuction that caused him to store too much fat. I just wanted to post this find for all to see, and to be wary that we may be unknowlingly shaving years off our snake's lives with too many fatty rodents.

WARNING the following photos are GRAPHIC.
sorry for the terrible background... and I didn't have any straight pins!! I basically did this underneath the deck of our house, on an old board, with gloves and X-acto knives.

here is the snake. He is actually dead in this picture... stiff as a board. hard to believe isnt it???
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/9374001.jpg

Here is the bottom view. You can see the area that was puffy in the last third of his body.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/9374002.jpg

Here is the view of the whole snake freshly cut open. You can see just how much fatty tissue there is... especially in the area the bulge was located.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/9374003.jpg

Here is the snake after much of the fatty tissue has been cut away to reveal the organs. The organs are stretched out a bit so that they can be seen.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/9374004.jpgand finally, a closeup of the swollen area where the bulk of the tissue was.http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll86/aSnakeLovinBabe/9374006.jpg

[Sid]

Good information, Shannon and thanks for sharing it. I'm sure that wasn't easy for you to do. Sorry about the loss.:(

[GartersRock]

Wow so sorry for your loss... I am interested to hear what others say about this subject.

[guidofatherof5]

Very sorry to here about your loss. I know you are very fond of your water snakes.

[count dewclaw]

Sorry for your loss, Shannon. That is an interesting find. Thanks for sharing, even though it must have been difficult for you.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

it was difficult... but hopefully his death won't be in vain! I hope to be able to use this as my example of why a varied diet is key to a healthy, long lived snake. Luckily, this guy is an expecting father and momma snake is doing very well. It's really a shame, because he was a VERY persistent breeder and could have made many future breedings easy as pie for me!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I also recently lost the other dark male to what appeared to be stroke. You could tell by all his battle scars and the size of his massive head he was an old snake, and one day i saw him racing around the cage. I picked him up and his head was on a tilt, one side of his mouth was limp, and that same side's eye had rolled down into the bottom of his head. He was drooling and twitching his face on the limp side. He appeared to have to feeling or control of that side of his body. He soon convulsed and died right there. I do not beleive these deaths are in any way connected. Just a freak thing.

[adamanteus]

Sorry to hear about your loss, Shannon, but excellent topic. I have long had doubts in my mind about over-use of rodents in the diet of Natricine snakes...... have a read through this thread.
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husbandry/511-rodent-diet.html?highlight=rodent+diet

[drache]

Oh man, Shannon - I'm so sorry you had to loose a snake like that - that sucks
that's a huge amount of fatty tissue, and I did have something like that removed from a garter (Sammy - the double chin)
I think that some snakes will tend toward this condition

[Stefan-A]

Sorry for your loss, Shannon. And good topic indeed.

[gregmonsta]

Sorry to hear that Shannon.

[Zephyr]

My condolences.
There is much work to be done in the field of Natricine snake diets, and this is no doubt a hideously good example of why varied diets are healthier for snakes.
Yet again, my condolences.

[MoJo]

The fat all seems to be collected in one spot - the rest of the snake does not appear to have much fat at all. Humans can get fat growths that are completely harmless. I can't help but wonder if that is what this snake had and the fatty deposits are completely unrelated to it's death.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

[snakeman]

I don't like the idea of grocery store bought fish at all.I would take my chances with goldfish first.Who knows it could be the rodent diet.Just like some people can eat and drink what they want and never get fat.Others get morbidly obese and die.That applys to all living things I would think.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

unless you breed the food yourself, no matter where it comes from you just really don't know what you're getting, be it rodents, fish, or worms. we all take a chance any time we feed something to our snakes of an origin we can't control, whether it's a fish or a rodent. I read a thread a few months ago on cornsnakes.com where a snake ate a f/t mouse and the next morning when it attempted to regurge the mouse, it couldn't because some a*hole had threaded Y shaped wire into the rodent so that when the snake threw up, the Y ends would impale through the snake's neck. When it's available, I use self-caught deep frozen trout. My next choice is blacknose dace in the summer which I also catch and freeze myself... or whole silversides from ocean nutrition or the same fish from the fish market. I rotate each feeding between fish of some sort, rodents, and earthworms. And sometimes frog legs as a treat! All my other snakes are looking robust, thick and healthy, and the young'uns are growing so fast, every time I blink they are bigger!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

The fat all seems to be collected in one spot - the rest of the snake does not appear to have much fat at all. Humans can get fat growths that are completely harmless. I can't help but wonder if that is what this snake had and the fatty deposits are completely unrelated to it's death.

I'm very sorry for your loss.

I still believe the fatty deposits are related, simply because they grew too large for anything to function properly. This was not an older snake, and the fat tissue started halfway down his body and went all the way to the vent. It was all entangled in between all the organs and it was very irregular looking, not nice and neat like the fat stores on a healthy snake would look. I did state however that it's not necessarily the rodent diet that did it, other issues can cause fat deposits. But, seeing as these are a snake that does not feed on rodents normally, diet is high on the list as a suspect. Many people will not feed eastern hognoses rodents, for good reason, and I am sure they are not the only species that would benefit from being kept on a more natural diet. Not every snake is going to be affected the same way, and some won't be affected at all - this appears to be a more extreme case. But, it would be better if no snakes were affected, at all. And this can only be ensured by following a closer-to-natural-diet feeding regimen.

[Stefan-A]

I'd love to be able to replace mice with something lower in fat. I'm still investigating the possibility of using quail and finch chicks instead, but naturally, finding a steady supply isn't easy.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Mice are definitely not a bad thing at all, I just think that exclusively mice are not what a semi aquatic snake should be eating is all. Everyone does it differently, and not everything works for everyone.

My mom came home from a trip to her parents today, with a big bag of fresh caught trout from my uncle!!! Boy am I happy!!! Trout is their favorite :D

[reptile3]

Sorry to hear about your snake Shannon.

[snakeman]

Rat pups are lower in fat.A mouse has a ton of fat.from what i've read.Was that snake cb or ltc?

[TwistidMutations]

sorry to hear that. i have an extra hypo male florida banded if you need/want one its glades herp stock not scotts. sorry again losing animals sucks

[Snake lover 3-25]

so sorry for your loss shannon:(

[lestat]

Yes very sorry for your loss. Thank you for bringing it to our attention about an all rodent diet. In our hurry to get them to take rodents we forget to feed them there more common prey(fish and worms ect) once they have excepted rodents. (Some of us me included). I feed mine only mice and rat pinkies thanks to someones suggestion about impaction from mice with fur. For instance 5 of my Checkereds, 2 Floridor Blues and my Easten (who eats only pinkies and worms) all eat pinkies. So next time i will give them some fish and maybe buy some big worms.

[KITKAT]

I don't like the idea of grocery store bought fish at all.I would take my chances with goldfish first.Who knows it could be the rodent diet.Just like some people can eat and drink what they want and never get fat.Others get morbidly obese and die.That applys to all living things I would think.

Goldfish contain Thiaminase, as do rosey reds and fathead (bait store) minnows.

I use grocery store fish, but I make sure it is wild caught sources, not farmed. I pay more for that, but it is safer. I feed Salmon, and trout. I also feed nightcrawlers (the wild garters on my property eat nightcrawlers and frogs). I do not have a source for frogs, but once in a blue moon I get one and freeze it for 30 days before offering. I have seasonal access to tadpoles that come in with goldfish shipments at a particular pet store, and like the frogs, these are frozen for 30 days.

I once lost a baby flame garter that had eaten a pinkie leg. The "paw" of the pinkie was undigested and blocked the gut, causing sepsis. I do feed the occasional pinkie when food sources are scarce, but prefer to stay away from them for the most part. My African House Snake, on the other hand, loves them! LOL!

I have had my pair of ordinoides for two years now... they are doing great.:cool:

[lampy]

Thats terrible. I wonder if the snake had some kind of defect that made it build up fat in that way, so that whilst the diet may not have helped it may have happened eventually anyway?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I wonder that myself, since the very beginning I did. This could very well be congenital. Who knows?! This thread is not meant to bash rodent only diets, but is simply a heads up that it may not be the best choice for the health of the snakes.

[paramedic6801]

Definately appears to be an obstruction to me.

[jitami]

Shannon, so very sorry for your loss. I, too, thank you for bringing up this topic and sharing the pictures, though. :(

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Definately appears to be an obstruction to me.

The gut was completely empty and unblocked. I cut it open to see. The only mass in there, was fat. Which had been there for the entire time I had the snake. The only way this could have obstructed anything was if the fat mass grew so large it hindered the process of digestion. I have seen blockages opened up in dead snakes before... it looked nothing like that.

[Chad M. Lane]

I've seen this way to often in Varanids. It's not %100 related to an all rodent diet. It's more related to in the conditions in which the animal is kept in.

Just an example. Varanus exanthematicus is fairly prone to obesity in captive not from an all rodent diet, but mostly do to the fact most people don't offer enough rage in temps, and humidity.

If you keep an animal too cool, or just simply not enough space to properly thermoregulate, you are going to have this problem, either it be a varied diet, fish only, or rodent only.

Not all fish are safe for feeding. Here's a list of some that are not, and some that are.

http://http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase


Cheers,
Chad

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I've seen this way to often in Varanids. It's not %100 related to an all rodent diet. It's more related to in the conditions in which the animal is kept in.

Just an example. Varanus exanthematicus is fairly prone to obesity in captive not from an all rodent diet, but mostly do to the fact most people don't offer enough rage in temps, and humidity.

If you keep an animal too cool, or just simply not enough space to properly thermoregulate, you are going to have this problem, either it be a varied diet, fish only, or rodent only.

Not all fish are safe for feeding. Here's a list of some that are not, and some that are.

http://http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Thiaminase


Cheers,
Chad

Thanks Chad!

We are very vocal about the thiaminase issue here at thamnophis!:D It's good to see that people are becoming more and more aware!

[MoJo]

Rat pups are lower in fat.A mouse has a ton of fat.from what i've read.


I always thought that rats were higher in fat content. Here is a link to Rodentpro where they list the nutritional content of different feeder animals. The info listed is from an independent source that I have not checked out. It appears to me that the mice are lower in fat. I am not sure if that is true if you compare the same size rat to the same size mouse.

Higher protein diets may not be good since higher protein diet may be worse in the long term for kidney function. I wonder about the fat and protein proportions of their diet in the wild.

[Scott F]

Shannon,

I had told you that I didn't notice the swelling on the water snake. If I had I would NEVER have sold it. Knowingly selling sickly animals is the kiss of death in our field. I would have had no problem w/ you bringing it back to me and refunding your $ (before or after the show). I did offer to take the snake back once you made me aware of this and you didn't accept my offer. I do feed my collection all rodents and back when I first started, did have some problems w/ obesity (fat rolls which are indicative of obeseness), due to overfeeding. I now back off on quantity and frequency and this has worked out well.

The problem w/ fish and frogs is that they are both loaded with parasites...worms can be lethal too as I have personally had a perfectly healthy snake die the day after feeding worms. I have friends that this has happend too as well. So it comes down to pick your poison, I have been feeding an all rodent diet since I got into garters and their life expectancy still averages around 10 years. Rodents don't have the parasite problem and one can even get lab raised mice, which are guaranteed to be disease/pathogen free.

Lastly, the gravid red water snake you got from me was fed on an all rodent diet (which I told you b4 purchasing her), as as the snakes I am sending you today, which I told you what they were feeding on as well. If the all rodent diet is that much of a concern for you, why would you still want to purchase from me? (Not being contrite w/ this question)

Scott

Here's the story. I woke up yesterday morning to turn the snake lights on. I noticed my male hypo water snake in the pond. Thinking nothing, I left for work. When I returned home... I noticed he was STILL in th pond, in the exact same position. He was curled in a U with his head resting on a rock out of the water. Little did I know... he was dead!!! I never would have though in a million years he would be dead, but he was!!! He looked perfectly alive and alert. Anyways... I got this snake from Scott Felzer at the daytona show last august. Shortly after checking him out in the truck I noticed a part of his abdomen was rather swollen and puffy. Very soft to the touch. I was worried, so i had the vet check him out and the vet said it was just some fatty tissue buildup. I know Scott feeds pretty much all rodents and that this snake was eating them. I switched him onto a diet of fish, with only the occasional rodent... which he grew less and less fond of as he realized how much he likes fish. The puffy spot never really went away, it got a bit smaller because he trimmed down once he started eating fish. But it was still there ever after almost 9 months. He stopped eating 3 weeks ago before I found him dead yesterday. I was too curious to resist opening him up to finally find out for sure what the heck that bulge was.

Indeed, this does appear to be fatty tissue, but there is WAY more of it than any snake should have, especially in the area of the bulge. I was very surprised to see that it extended further than just the bulging spot. It was wrapped and entangled all around the organs and i had to move it aside to see any of them.

In short, I have always worried that an all rodent diet is too fatty and rich for snakes that normally feed almost exclusively on aquatic and invertebrate prey. Now, opening up this snake pretty much confirms it, at least for me. I know that many many of these snakes are seemingly doing fine on an all rodent diet, but i think this here is an example of why rodents are not always the optimal prey item.

Scott, this is in NO way directed at you or criticizing your husbandry. You raise hundreds of snakes each year and produce some of the best animals out there. You do a great job with your snakes and you are a master of breeding thamnophis. I will probably buy from you every single year, for... ever! I have garters/water snakes myself that once ate rodents only and none of them seem to be any worse for wear.

But, this snake is an example of why I strongly feel that a highly varied diet with rodents only as a portion of it is best. I am not saying that the rodents did it for sure either, this could be some kind of tumor, or hormone malfuction that caused him to store too much fat. I just wanted to post this find for all to see, and to be wary that we may be unknowlingly shaving years off our snake's lives with too many fatty rodents.

WARNING the following photos are GRAPHIC.
sorry for the terrible background... and I didn't have any straight pins!! I basically did this underneath the deck of our house, on an old board, with gloves and X-acto knives.

[MasSalvaje]

I don't believe anyone is calling you out on your your husbandry practices Scott, you have been able to do what no one else in the world has been able to do with your breeding and raising of garters.

This is my opinion but this thred has not changed my personal view about feeding an all rodent diet to my Garters. I do every once in awhile throw in a piece of trout or amphib but those times are few and far between. I have a WC female T. e. vagrans that will only accept mice and not for lack of trying, I have tried to give her other things but with no success.

One specimen is a very poor sample pool (I realize this was not intended to be any sort of scientific study and I am really sorry about your personal loss Shannon), and the fact of the matter remains that no matter how hard we try we will never %100 percent copy the diet of a wild garter. How many of us feed our garters slugs? Leeches? Snails? Grubs? (All of which I have seen eaten or the regurge remains of wild specimens) I have even seen a wild garter go after a baby bird that fell from its nest.

It would be interesting to see an official scientific experiment done on the matter with a control (varied diet), and then specimens that eat solely one food source, one of worms, one of fish, one of amphibs, and one of rodents. That is just me thinking aloud though.

-Thomas

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hmmm, Scott I sent you an email, but I think this thread sure has attracted a lot more attention than I thought it would and maybe I should further clarify a few things!

First and very foremost, I want everyone to know that I am NOT accusing Scott of selling me a sick snake, or making the snake sick, or anything at all like that. I was merely mentioning that he is where I got it is all. I was originally not even going to mention that much because I was afraid I would accidentally make him look bad or something. Scott did offer to take the snake back, he had no idea about any bulgy thing, and I politely declined because he gave me the snake for a very, very good price ($25) and my vet said that all the snake needed was a little less food, but otherwise it was a healthy animal. My vet was not worried, I was not worried, so I only informed Scott of it, basically for the hell of it. I was not looking to return the snake.

Second, I need to address the issue that I think I may accidentally mislead everyone to think that I am totally AGAINST feeding a rodent diet in my over-zealousness (you gotta remember guys, I had just got done cutting up my pet snake and washing his blood off a board when I wrote this, I was kinda freaked). In fact, I am not at all against people who feed their garters an all rodent diet. It works for a LOT of people. What I simply mean is that for me, and my husbandry methods, personally I would rather feed a varied diet, I feel safer that way. And that works equally well for me as a rodent only diet does for many others. By posting this thread, I was basically posting an experience I had, and questioning, asking "hey guys, look at this, I think this COULD be related to eating rodents, but I am not totally sure because it could be other things too." It was more of a, post what I found, and see what others speculate kind of thing. It was not meant to attack rodent-only feeders. It was not meant to convince rodent-only feeders to feed their snake something else. It was just a little background information on the snake, an observation of what was found, and my own personal speculation as to what may have gone wrong. I do include rodents as a good portion of my garter and water snake's diet. Just not the whole portion. I am not trying to exactly mimic their wild diet, just kind of stick somewhat close to it.

In fact when babies are born here, I will not sell them/ send them off to their new homes until they are accepting pinky parts unscented. Once they are accepting those, I know they are confident enough and strong enough feeders to be on their own. Rodents are still a valueable food source for our garters and should not be excluded, in my opinion. I am sure many of you have seen me, at one time or another, tell a person that refuses to feed rodents to their snake that they should strongly reconsider, because in my eyes feeding a mouse or a fish, or a worm is the same, it's still killing a living breathing creature. Because rodents are furry, does not make them superior and somehow exempt from being eaten.

Basically, what it boils down to, is how I like to keep my snakes. I like to keep my garters in large showy enclosures, with lots of plants and climby things, with basking lights, because those are things they have access to in the wild and it comforts me to give it to them, and since I am an artist and a bit OCD, I feel like I have to. If my snakeroom doesnt look pretty I am not happy. I know that if I kept them in racks that they would do just fine, but I personally like spending time building setups (wait until you see my recent snakeroom pics) and being a spectator in my snakeroom.

The same thing applies with the food I feed them. I have so much remorse, for not knowing any better when I was younger, and feeding my old garters goldfish, you would never believe it. I am so scared, to do wrong by my snakes again that I feel safer going with a varied diet. They get rodents, they get worms, they get safe fish that has been frozen in the chest freezer for at least 30 days, and they get frog legs when they have them at the fish market which are also frozen. I spent a whole day last year going around the neighborhood (I live in a rural area) asking nearby residents if they use any chemicals and/or pesticides. Surprisingly, everyone said no... but then again nobody even really cares about their lawn any further than mowing it anyways. So the nightcrawlers in my yard are a safe and valuable (and free) food source.

So, if I accidentally offended anyone, or seemed to jump to conclusions when really, I was just speculating as to what this could be and why it might not be good, I apologize. I never meant for this thread to become such hot stuff. I knew going into this that I was going to have people who both agreed, and disagreed, because the same things won't work for different people.

Scott, I choose to buy from you because I know how good of a job you do with your animals. They are healthy, and perfect, and I was able to see that in person at Daytona, and continue to see it every time you send me something new. I aspire to reach your level of respect, reputation, and good customer service. Just because I don't want to feed my animals rodents only, does not give me the right to boycott you or criticize you, or put you down for doing so when you get the same good results with your feeding as I do with mine. I know when I buy from you, I am consistenly getting a top notch animal and that you are never going to screw me over or rip me off. You run a top notch business and you truly care about your snakes and your customers and that is something that is really hard to find these days. I am willing to pay the extra $$$ for your stock because I am 100% confident that it's a worthy investment. Many people in this hobby make it seem like it's a competition. Like this guy at the hamburg show, he told me he was not going to let you get at his hypo's because you will turn around and sell them for 75839 dollars and this and that, and I don't really understand that mindset. I am in this hobby because I love snakes and I want to share that love with others, and I don't think he was too happy when I bought that snake and told him that I would have no problem sending you some hypo checkereds when some were born. And since it's codom, and this is a male, and it eats like a horse, that will probably be next season. I am into garter snakes to branch out and make friends and exchange all kinds of snakes with all kinds of people, not to try and compete with other breeders and make them my enemy, and block them from getting something they don't have yet!

I know this post was incredibly long winded but I hope it clears things up some!!!:o

[MasSalvaje]

Excellent post Shannon! I think everyone here would agree.

-Thomas

[Jeff B]

"It would be interesting to see an official scientific experiment done on the matter with a control (varied diet), and then specimens that eat solely one food source, one of worms, one of fish, one of amphibs, and one of rodents. That is just me thinking aloud though."

-Thomas


Thomas,
These studies have actually been done numerous times for garters by both scientists (published data) and hobbiest, and these studies have been done inumerous times by scientists and hobbiest with many other snake species.
In general the scientific and hobbiest concensus is that a mammal, like a rodent is by far the most nutritionally complete and parasite/pathogen free food item to offer a snake in captivity (scientifically supported fact). If you feed anything other than a whole prey animal, be it fish or rodent, you HAVE to vitamin and mineral suppliment, and the regulation of amounts and ratios can be a very tricky, dicey guess at best, because fat soluble vitamins can easily build up to toxic, leathal levels if over dosed.
Obiesity can be part genetic (efficiency of metabolism and fat storage), and part quantity of caloric consumption/metabolism (scientific fact). So, definately consideration of caloric intake is especially important for captive animals that have restricted amounts of exercise or daily calorie burning activities.
My personal OPPINION would be that the water snake more likely had a genetic defect that caused its sudden death, which a small percentage of all animals will have and can be a lethal ticking time bomb, thats just part of the deal when raising numberous animals, it happens, rather than it was a diet related cause of death. However it's hard to prove or disprove either way, as that wasn't an official autopsy?
Jeff

[prattypus]

Alright I'm gonna make a call. CSI Las Vegas is on the way.

[Stefan-A]

Thomas,
These studies have actually been done numerous times for garters by both scientists (published data) and hobbiest, and these studies have been done inumerous times by scientists and hobbiest with many other snake species.
You wouldn't happen to have any links or titles? Preferably to something peer-reviewed.

[Scott F]

Jeff, appreciate your input, think we're on the same page as far as rodents go. Shannon, thankyou for responding back so quickly. We can all agree that a snake's diet is all about an individual's choice. We all have comfort levels w/ various food items that we feed our collections with. Knowing the pros and cons of various food items is helpful for everyone as it allows them to make an eduacted choice as to which food source they choose to work with.

How's the albino dekay doing?

Scott


Hmmm, Scott I sent you an email, but I think this thread sure has attracted a lot more attention than I thought it would and maybe I should further clarify a few things!

First and very foremost, I want everyone to know that I am NOT accusing Scott of selling me a sick snake, or making the snake sick, or anything at all like that. I was merely mentioning that he is where I got it is all. I was originally not even going to mention that much because I was afraid I would accidentally make him look bad or something. Scott did offer to take the snake back, he had no idea about any bulgy thing, and I politely declined because he gave me the snake for a very, very good price ($25) and my vet said that all the snake needed was a little less food, but otherwise it was a healthy animal. My vet was not worried, I was not worried, so I only informed Scott of it, basically for the hell of it. I was not looking to return the snake.

Second, I need to address the issue that I think I may accidentally mislead everyone to think that I am totally AGAINST feeding a rodent diet in my over-zealousness (you gotta remember guys, I had just got done cutting up my pet snake and washing his blood off a board when I wrote this, I was kinda freaked). In fact, I am not at all against people who feed their garters an all rodent diet. It works for a LOT of people. What I simply mean is that for me, and my husbandry methods, personally I would rather feed a varied diet, I feel safer that way. And that works equally well for me as a rodent only diet does for many others. By posting this thread, I was basically posting an experience I had, and questioning, asking "hey guys, look at this, I think this COULD be related to eating rodents, but I am not totally sure because it could be other things too." It was more of a, post what I found, and see what others speculate kind of thing. It was not meant to attack rodent-only feeders. It was not meant to convince rodent-only feeders to feed their snake something else. It was just a little background information on the snake, an observation of what was found, and my own personal speculation as to what may have gone wrong. I do include rodents as a good portion of my garter and water snake's diet. Just not the whole portion. I am not trying to exactly mimic their wild diet, just kind of stick somewhat close to it.

In fact when babies are born here, I will not sell them/ send them off to their new homes until they are accepting pinky parts unscented. Once they are accepting those, I know they are confident enough and strong enough feeders to be on their own. Rodents are still a valueable food source for our garters and should not be excluded, in my opinion. I am sure many of you have seen me, at one time or another, tell a person that refuses to feed rodents to their snake that they should strongly reconsider, because in my eyes feeding a mouse or a fish, or a worm is the same, it's still killing a living breathing creature. Because rodents are furry, does not make them superior and somehow exempt from being eaten.

Basically, what it boils down to, is how I like to keep my snakes. I like to keep my garters in large showy enclosures, with lots of plants and climby things, with basking lights, because those are things they have access to in the wild and it comforts me to give it to them, and since I am an artist and a bit OCD, I feel like I have to. If my snakeroom doesnt look pretty I am not happy. I know that if I kept them in racks that they would do just fine, but I personally like spending time building setups (wait until you see my recent snakeroom pics) and being a spectator in my snakeroom.

The same thing applies with the food I feed them. I have so much remorse, for not knowing any better when I was younger, and feeding my old garters goldfish, you would never believe it. I am so scared, to do wrong by my snakes again that I feel safer going with a varied diet. They get rodents, they get worms, they get safe fish that has been frozen in the chest freezer for at least 30 days, and they get frog legs when they have them at the fish market which are also frozen. I spent a whole day last year going around the neighborhood (I live in a rural area) asking nearby residents if they use any chemicals and/or pesticides. Surprisingly, everyone said no... but then again nobody even really cares about their lawn any further than mowing it anyways. So the nightcrawlers in my yard are a safe and valuable (and free) food source.

So, if I accidentally offended anyone, or seemed to jump to conclusions when really, I was just speculating as to what this could be and why it might not be good, I apologize. I never meant for this thread to become such hot stuff. I knew going into this that I was going to have people who both agreed, and disagreed, because the same things won't work for different people.

Scott, I choose to buy from you because I know how good of a job you do with your animals. They are healthy, and perfect, and I was able to see that in person at Daytona, and continue to see it every time you send me something new. I aspire to reach your level of respect, reputation, and good customer service. Just because I don't want to feed my animals rodents only, does not give me the right to boycott you or criticize you, or put you down for doing so when you get the same good results with your feeding as I do with mine. I know when I buy from you, I am consistenly getting a top notch animal and that you are never going to screw me over or rip me off. You run a top notch business and you truly care about your snakes and your customers and that is something that is really hard to find these days. I am willing to pay the extra $$$ for your stock because I am 100% confident that it's a worthy investment. Many people in this hobby make it seem like it's a competition. Like this guy at the hamburg show, he told me he was not going to let you get at his hypo's because you will turn around and sell them for 75839 dollars and this and that, and I don't really understand that mindset. I am in this hobby because I love snakes and I want to share that love with others, and I don't think he was too happy when I bought that snake and told him that I would have no problem sending you some hypo checkereds when some were born. And since it's codom, and this is a male, and it eats like a horse, that will probably be next season. I am into garter snakes to branch out and make friends and exchange all kinds of snakes with all kinds of people, not to try and compete with other breeders and make them my enemy, and block them from getting something they don't have yet!

I know this post was incredibly long winded but I hope it clears things up some!!!:o
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[anji1971]

Wow, so sorry to hear about your snake, Shannon.:(
A very informative thread, however. Glad you took the time to share the full experience with us, even though it was painful for you.

[charles parenteau]

Sorry for your lost !!!I swich to trout mixture and earth worm instead of rodent.tanks for information!