Newborn feeding strategy

[guidofatherof5]

I thought I share a new perspective I have on feeding newborns. First, these observations are for my radixes, only.
In the past, I would remove newborns from their enclosures putting them in a small container with their food. This seemed to work well but some snakes struggle to start eating.
I’ve been thinking for quite some time that this way of feeding put a lot of stress on the newborn snake.
With this latest group of radixes I have employed a different strategy.
Now, I leave the snake in its new home and allow them to even eat inside their hide. It appears to be working very well. I have more newborns eating now and in a shorter amount of time than ever before. I have even started feeding them 3 times a day. Those that are full won’t eat and it gives the shyer, less aggressive snakes more of a chance to eat without that constant harassment. I always observe my newborns while they eat and have seen much more interest in food from the non-eaters and the slower eaters. Just thought I would pass these observations along.

[adamanteus]

I always feedind neonates in their enclosure, I have found that lifting them in and out can stress them and stop them eating.
I split new groups of neonates into smaller, more manageable groups, then simply feed them in situ, under close supervision, only lifting them out to clean the enclosure. This way I rarely have a non-feeder.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I feed my neonates with my own technique I call speed feeding. When they are first born, I feed them by offering food in the enclosure. I never take them out. Once they are steadily eating without any hesitation, I switch to the speed feed method. I cut up the food into pieces so that one piece will perfectly fill a little snake tummy. I quickly stick the food item in front of a baby and allow him to grab it and start eating. Once he's got a good grip, I still have a hold of the food item with the tongs and simply quickly pick up my hand and transfer the little snake, still hanging onto his food into the "swallowing" bucket. You have to do it quickly and confidently, and 99% of the time, in their eating frenzy they don't even notice. I very rapidly keep stuffing more faces and transferring them into the swallowing bucket. As soon as any in that bucket finish, I grab them and put them in the "finished" bucket. My finished bucket ued to have some water in it to rinse them off, but i don't do that anymore because being wet allows baby garter snakes to climb plastic and glass like geckos.

Doing it this way, I can get a large number of baby snakes fed VERY quickly and without a single fight, because the swallowing ones are separate from the ones who have yet to eat, or whom have finished their piece. This allows me to keep babies in larger groups, and everyone gets a fair share.

In the end, i find that this technique has an added benefit, the babies are exposed to more drama at feeding time, and become accustomed to sudden movements and are not nearly as likely to drop their food and freak out as the ones I would feed on dishes in the cages. It also helps me get them accepting varieties of food, once they learn that the tongs present the food, garters will often try things they would not try off of a dish. My adults would probably curiously bite at brocolli if I offered it to them from my tongs!!

I plan to film me doing this this coming season!!!:D (the speed feeding, not the offering of brocolli!!)

[Snake lover 3-25]

thanks for the ideas guys! i'm sure all of these will be helpful:)

[Jeff B]

Shannon, that actually sounds like an excellent, organized and well thought out and orchestrated technique. Of course, I keep mine in seperate deli cups and hand feed with tongs, once they are trained and have a rapid feeding response to the lid being opened, I can usually go from cup to cup, only spending about 10-20 seconds or less on each snake including writing on the lab tape on the lid the date and what they ate in short-hand, that is my speed version, but your system sounds like an excellent way to keep track of who is eating and who is not when housing multiple youngsters togather, of course Steves method might also actually keep them more comfortable (less stress) and feeding well too, however I am an anal records keeping scientist, so I couldn't do that without being able to know excatly who ate when and documenting it, (God I'm a freak, when you actually think about it, but I can't help it, I have been programmed to do a job for the government, like an unbiased robot :D) To each their own, whatever works for YOU is always the best way for YOU (us all)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon, that actually sounds like an excellent, organized and well thought out and orchestrated technique. Of course, I keep mine in seperate deli cups and hand feed with tongs, once they are trained and have a rapid feeding response to the lid being opened, I can usually go from cup to cup, only spending about 10-20 seconds or less on each snake including writing on the lab tape on the lid the date and what they ate in short-hand, that is my speed version, but your system sounds like an excellent way to keep track of who is eating and who is not when housing multiple youngsters togather, of course Steves method might also actually keep them more comfortable (less stress) and feeding well too, however I am an anal records keeping scientist, so I couldn't do that without being able to know excatly who ate when and documenting it, (God I'm a freak, when you actually think about it, but I can't help it, I have been programmed to do a job for the government, like an unbiased robot :D) To each their own, whatever works for YOU is always the best way for YOU (us all)

Thanks jeff! I will say that the nice thing about doing it that way is the fact that since they are exposed to so much going on at such an early age, as they grow up it consistently produces GOOD, strong, feeding responses with zero hesitation and plenty of confidence. if there is one thing that bothers me, it's when a garter snake is really shy and reluctant at feeding time. I like my snakes to feel confident when taking a meal. My baby snakes are some of the most confident little buggers around! (maybe its why Radish STILL occasionally grabs a finger and dangles from it relentlessly trying to eat it in mid-air, even if there's no food smell on it!)

[k2l3d4]

Got a question.... on the chance that my lady is pregnant.... what do you feed baby checkered? When I got both of my snakes they were already big enought for pinkie mice and feeder fish. Little dude is picky and will not take the food if it is moving.... he won't even huunt the fish out of the water bowl... so for him I just place the pinkie on the plate and when I get them fish I will put one or two of them on the plate for a treat for him... now Hudina is my huntress.

[guidofatherof5]

The babies shouldn't be a problem feeding. I work with only radixes so I can't speak for newborn checkereds but cut-up worms, guppies, salmon, pinky tails and feet should work fine. I try to find what they like and offer change once they have a good start. In my opinion getting their digestive and other systems working is very important. I feel the longer they go without eating the less likely they are to start.
Babies are so cool, I wish you great success.

[k2l3d4]

thanks... i think that i will have to work with fish first...... I have tried worms with the female checkered and she gave me the worst look of disgust.... (and you want me to eat what?) I swear that I could have heard her say that.

Has anyone heard of scenting pinkies with tuna fish water? (the water from the can of tuna) For some reason Hudina and Little Dude love it and I was wondering if they are just weird, or if anyone else has ever done anything like that.

[Stefan-A]

Has anyone heard of scenting pinkies with tuna fish water?
I've heard about it. There's a lot of salt in it so I wouldn't use more than is absolutely necessary.

[adamanteus]

It smells of fish so the Garters will go for it, but ditto what Stefan said. Better to use a small piece of fresh, 'safe' fish for scenting.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I wouldn't use anything that's got salt in it... as Stefan said. If you checkered is pregnant, the good news is that checkereds are one of the easiest garters to get feeding, and they often will take pinky parts unscented without any scenting needed. As babies, for first meals I always offer cut up worms. Then then next meal I offer cut up fish. Then I start mixing the two and mixing in pinky parts. Eventually they will eat anything you throw at them!!!

[k2l3d4]

what kind of fish? I buy the live feeder fish and hudina and little dude will eat those. Neither one of my snakes take to worms.

[drache]

cut up pieces of trout or salmon work pretty well, and also the fish gel mix referred to in this thread http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/enclosures/3208-trout-mixture.html

[guidofatherof5]

I tried another new strategy with one of my slow eating groups. This is my group of 18 born to my girl Spot. They are 15 days old. The first thing I did was turn the heat up on them. I'm hoping a little more heat will stimulate more activity. I then collected a large group of earthworms(small pale colored worms). I put the worm in a small bowl with some of the dirt from where they were collected.
I put the bowl in the enclosure and made sure there was easy access, making the bowl level with the substrate.
Now comes the most important part. Patients! I spent at least an hour watching this group. What I observed was this. The aggressive eaters were first to hit the bowl and start seaching for food. This digging/searching seemed to cause a great interest from the others, who gathered around to watch or search on their own. This is a much different behavior from before when I only placed cut-up worms inside for them. The aggressive eaters didn't have to search. The food was right there. The difference seems to be the amount of digging in the dirt that occurs.
I saw aggressive snake find a worm, grab it and pull out of the bowl. Only to be met by a smaller snake who had been watching the proceedure. The smaller one grabbed the worm and the fight was on. Instead of breaking the fight up I let it happen, only watching to make sure no one gets bit.
I think this natural approach, letting them search and find their own food in dirt. Letting their aggressive/competitive eating habits happen. Letting them eat at their own speed(not mine) is a more relaxed, more natural time for them. Hence, less stress.
I'm finding more of my slow eaters participating or at least showing interest. The slow eaters won't go in for a meal but don't seem to have a problem stealing one from someone else. There seem to be more of a balance in the enclosure. I don't know if it's just the make-up of the group or it this is a good proceedure. I don't have anymore babies due for a while but I plan on introducing this as a feeding strategy with all my baby groups.
I think there are many great strategies for feeding and I just wanted to share what I observed with this one.

[drache]

it sounds good
how did fights resolve?

[guidofatherof5]

it sounds good
how did fights resolve?


The worm broke or one of them would let go.
I also noticed that the fights over the worm stimulated a lot of interest and some feeding responces with the others.

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow very neat again!!! great thinking steve!!

[DrKate]

Steve, I hope this isn't a totally brainless question, but... The worms must have dirt stuck all over them when the snakes swallow them; are you OK with that? I mean, "in the wild" worms are pretty much going to be covered in dirt, so it seems like the snakes should be able to deal. BUT, we worry so much about accidental swallowing of other substrates, it feels wrong to say it's OK to let them eat dirt. :)

I'm about to adopt a couple of three-week-old Puget Sound problem feeders (have neither shed nor eaten since birth) and have been digging through this forum looking for ideas on getting them started. I can get nice fat earthworms from my back yard so this seems like a good method to put on the list of things to try.

-Kate

[guidofatherof5]

Steve, I hope this isn't a totally brainless question, but... The worms must have dirt stuck all over them when the snakes swallow them; are you OK with that? I mean, "in the wild" worms are pretty much going to be covered in dirt, so it seems like the snakes should be able to deal. BUT, we worry so much about accidental swallowing of other substrates, it feels wrong to say it's OK to let them eat dirt. :)

I'm about to adopt a couple of three-week-old Puget Sound problem feeders (have neither shed nor eaten since birth) and have been digging through this forum looking for ideas on getting them started. I can get nice fat earthworms from my back yard so this seems like a good method to put on the list of things to try.

-Kate

Remember, my experience is with radix. I'm sure someone on the forum has had first hand experience with baby pugets.

I don't think the dirt is a problem, if you know the area you collect your worms from is safe.
Guppies in a shallow bowl, very little water. This causes the fish to slash around and can be a real magnet to the hungry little scrubs.
Sometimes you'll run across a shy eater. In that case, vacate the room and leave them alone. Even a couple of hours if possible(this takes great self-control)

If the substrate is an issue, cover the substrate with paper towels or a hand towel. Anything so that you feel safe in them not eating it.

On a side note. I've seen newborns that are very wary about grabbing large worms. Make sure you put plenty of small even tiny worms in your mix.
Hope this helps.

[BChambers]

I just recently got my first litter out of my female codom hypo checkered, and like my other checkereds, most of the babies (90%) started off fine on unscented pinky parts. I think most terrestrial garters (Checkereds, wandering, radix, etc) aren't missing out nutritionally on an all-rodent diet. I'm very interested in trying the "trout gelatin" on blacknecks, however.

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome to the forum.

[BChambers]

Welcome to the forum.

Thanks Guido! I'm glad I found this forum-I've been breeding garters since the 90's-in fact, I and my partner (Gary Lorio) were the first in the U.S. to obtain some of the first "Flames" from Phil Blais of Quebec (he used to bring some of his neos to the Syracuse, NY expo, and stayed with us). I was not previously aware that this online community existed.

[drache]

welcome to the forum
glad you found us

[DrKate]

I'm happy to report that my baby Pugets seem set to have overcome whatever their early eating issues were. I offered them each a half-inch guppy yesterday as a "test," which they both readily inhaled. Then they each got another half-inch guppy and a small worm (maybe 2mm diameter, less than 2 inches long) today. That meal made a visible bump in their bellies, but they were nosing around afterward like they would have eaten more.

So, question for anyone out there with newborn experience... How much do you feed a baby garter snake? I didn't want to overstuff them tonight, since they haven't eaten much yet in their lives and I figure their guts should get a little time to adjust. But after they get going, should I really just offer food every day and let them decide whether or not they're hungry? I don't want to end up with morbidly obese babies. :eek: Can anyone give me some kind of ballpark, volume-wise, for what a baby garter "should" be eating? Thanks!

-Kate

[Stefan-A]

So, question for anyone out there with newborn experience... How much do you feed a baby garter snake? I didn't want to overstuff them tonight, since they haven't eaten much yet in their lives and I figure their guts should get a little time to adjust. But after they get going, should I really just offer food every day and let them decide whether or not they're hungry? I don't want to end up with morbidly obese babies. :eek: Can anyone give me some kind of ballpark, volume-wise, for what a baby garter "should" be eating? Thanks!
I doubt that babies can get obese. I've let mine eat as much fish (sometimes mouse pieces or a fish/mouse mix) as they can eat 2-3 times a week for the first month and I just started them on a diet of one pinky twice a week. I kept their mother on the same diet when she was young and it worked just fine. Until she was about 50cm long, the only thing that changed was the size of the pinkies, from tiny half-gram newborns to week-old ones of 2-3 grams.

[Didymus20X6]

Sorry guys, but every time I hear "pinkies", I can't help but think, "POIT! NARF! ZORT!"

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry guys, but every time I hear "pinkies", I can't help but think, "POIT! NARF! ZORT!"

I'm lost. Could you explain? I feel l am missing out on something:D

[Didymus20X6]

THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_and_the_Brain)should explain it.

[guidofatherof5]

THIS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinky_and_the_Brain)should explain it.

Yes, now I'm in the groove.