Eyes don't seem right.

[gregmonsta]

Xerxes appears to have a problem. Before the last shed (1week ago) he appeared to have a general cloudyness in one of his eyes (which looked like some dimpling or result from some burrowing activity. He has since shed, both eyecaps were present in the shed and now I have this problem - both eyes don't seem 100%. The eye with the previous problem still looks the same and the other eye looks terrible. In some ways it looks as if it's a retained eyecap but then again I'm not sure.
I decided to soak it and investigate using tweezers today. I can grab the surface of the eyecap, it appears looser than it should be but is firmly connected. I could try some prolonged soaking but every shed has always produced two intact eyecaps ... could he have possibly made two at any given time?

[adamanteus]

Unless you're very certain that it's a retained eyecap I would hold off with the tweezers. Because of the nature of a snakes' eye, with the permanent brille on it's surface (transparent, fused eye-lid, if you like), any infection on the surface of the eye is trapped behind this brille. Attempting to remove the brille, believing it to be part of an incomplete slough, could be very damaging.

[gregmonsta]

Should I try some some regular dabbing with iodine based disinfectant? I think it could be an eye infection because it doesn't seem right ... I've managed retained eyecaps before and they are definately 'easy' to deal with.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like the eye needs a scope put to it. Probably the most difficult and scary time for me is when I have to work with a retained eye cap or anytime I'm working with their eyes.

[gregmonsta]

It's a bit nerve-wracking for sure ... don't want to stress the little blighter out :(

[gregmonsta]

Ok ... after some research I'm going for small dabs of anti-inflammatory cream and I'll track down a triple antibiotic cream (like neosporin) asap. Definately an infection with the fluid buil up behind the brille.

[drache]

sounds scary
good luck getting that under control
here's what i've been able to find about a condition called subspectacular abscess:
"Infection under the spectacle, involving the subspectacular space, is a common problem. Infection is thought to occur either from a penetration wound, or from the mouth via the nasolacrimal ducts, or from systemic infection and hematogenous (bloodborne - r.) spread. It can also be associated with conjunctivitis. Although with a primary infection only one eye is affected, with septicemic spread the infection could be unilateral or bilateral.
The spectacle appears cloudy or white (leukoria) and may sometimes, but not always, be distorted. In cases of unilateral involvement, whether the infection s local or secondary is important. White blood cell counts and sometimes blood cultures are necessary for differentiation. If the infection is secondary to septicemia, then locating the site of origin of the primary infection and undertaking treatment of this at the same time as dealing with the subspectacular abscess is important.
Treatment and obtaining material for cytology or culture requires a small wedge resection of the spectacle (spectaculotomy) and removal of the material. This should be performed under anesthesia for greatest control and comfort to the reptile. On opening the subspectacular space a swab should be taken of any material and submitted for culture and sensitivity; a stained smear may be useful in confirming a bacterial infection. The subspectacular space should then be flushed out with balanced salt solution or another suitable solution and an ophthalmic antibiotic solution such as ciprofloxacin or gentamicin. Depending on the culture and sensitivity results. systemic antibiotic treatment may also be necessary."
this is from the Mader tome - hope it helps

[anji1971]

Hope you can get on top of that infection, Greg. Sounds serious.
Best wishes!

[gregmonsta]

conjunctivitis - I'd been wondering about this - like I said it did look as if he'd damaged one of his eyes (possibly scratched the brille on one of the objects in the tank). I'll keep working on the cream and do some research. So far silver sulfadiazine cream looks like a good option - apparently on a par with gentamicin. I'll track some down.

[guidofatherof5]

conjunctivitis - I'd been wondering about this - like I said it did look as if he'd damaged one of his eyes (possibly scratched the brille on one of the objects in the tank). I'll keep working on the cream and do some research. So far silver sulfadiazine cream looks like a good option - apparently on a par with gentamicin. I'll track some down.

I can't say I'm an expert at its use but I don't think I've ever read anything about it being used for an eye infection. I'm not saying it couldn't be used for it but I would find out for sure before using it in that way.

Did a quick google for using silver sulf. for eye infections. Saw it both ways. Yes and no. Nothing about reptiles though. Purdue University did a study for its use on horses.
Other studies about the hazards of its overall use. I'd check with a good Herp. Vet.

[drache]

Greg
i do think you need to take him to the vet
earlier in Mader it also says: "The spectacle is a physical barrier and as such it is also impervious to most topical medicaments, making treatment of the underlying cornea or globe difficult if not impossible without s subspectale injection or application."

[gregmonsta]

Will do, I'm going to try and find one asap. There's none in Perth so I'm going to get a list of numbers and try them all tomorrow. Hoping to get him in on Tuesday. :( ... Damn concinnus ... nothing but bother ...

[drache]

remember to bring notes
my current neighbourhood vet doesn't have a huge amount of experience with herps
she's good though and happy to learn when she hasn't treated something before
so she appreciates my getting info from other sources (Sean, Mader, the doc in Pennsylvania)

[gregmonsta]

I've found one that is a specialist and has a good reputation Romain Pizzi - Specialist Veterinary Surgeon (http://romainpizzi.com/) ... he's even been on animal planet!!! I'll take along as much as I can find tho, no worries about that ;)

[drache]

wow - he's near you?
good for you and your critters

[gregmonsta]

Yup ... about 30mins drive away ... I also spoke to another vet today who said it's a similar process used with birds - a small inscision and a dropper rinse with povodine iodine as a cureall and then sterile conditions for a week to allow healing. Possible to DIY with confidence ... but I'll be going to the vet!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like a good plan of attack. Keep us informed.

[gregmonsta]

Xerxes is booked in for tomorrow. Crossing fingers for the little guy.

[Snaky]

You really have not had luck with the concinnus:(
Hope he gets all better again! Fingers crossed.

[gregmonsta]

That herp vet is great!!! Really friendly and knowledgeable (no notes required for this guy). He gave Xerxes a thorough check - No indication of septicemia (which is indicated by small red dots - ie mini haemorrages in mouth or skin) says that the damage that he caused to his 'good' eye was the probable cause. Xerxes is starting a new shed cycle of his own accord to probably solve the problem himself. Been given a gentle liquid antibiotic to help him along (along with syringe and appropriate tubing) and should be right as rain before long. Romain said he's seen this problem at more advanced stages and even then opening the eye and flushing it is still the last resort.

So :D ... onward with the recovery :D

[count dewclaw]

Great to hear Xerxes is on the mend. Glad the situation isn't as dire as it sounded. Keep us posted on the recovery.

[drache]

congrats, Greg - that's fantastic
not just about Xerxes being okay either
it's really cool you found such a great vet

[gregmonsta]

Definately and I hope his experience gets passed on to the other vets too ;). He's only been up here for a year ... :rolleyes: maybe I should set him up with some locals and make him grow roots :D

[drache]

definitely
loosing my vet to Pennsylvania has been one of the greater bummers of my life

[gregmonsta]

I can understand that ... I'd be stressed to the max if I hadn't found this one .... follow him!!! Or better yet :) move to Scotland and meet this guy :D. Fingers crossed you find another good vet soon. I'm glad I didn't resort to my cat's local practice ... when I phoned them about doing a necropsy on Xena nobody ever got back to me!!! Not even to say 'Sorry, we don't do that for snakes'.

[anji1971]

Sounds like an all around good day, Greg!
Congrats on finding a great vet, and best wishes for the snakey!:)

[adamanteus]

Great news, Greg. Sounds as though all will be well now.

[Sid]

Glad to hear the great news, Gregg.

[Snake lover 3-25]

glad to hear it!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Just the kind of good news I needed to hear. So glad Xerxes is on her way to better health. Nice you found someone who cared. Glad you put in the effort to find that Vet.

[gregmonsta]

Had to be done ;) especially with a problem I'd not seen before. The antibiotic is called Baytril and is said to have a wide toxicity margin for reptiles.

[guidofatherof5]

Found this link about Baytril. For those who are interested.
Mechanism of Action (http://www.baytril.com/8/Mechanism_of_Action.htm)

[gregmonsta]

Ineresting stuff :D ... just administered .... can I just say that getting musk royally applicated to your forearm during tube insertion is not fun!!! ... and this will happen every two days for the next two weeks :rolleyes:.

Incidentally, on the vets advice, the antibiotic is syringed into the holding chamber of the tube and then I deliver it along with a salmon paste pushing it down with a syringe (the paste is a back up as Romain said that Xerxes would likely go off feed during treatment). Eliminate air bubbles where possible.

[drache]

gosh Greg - you get to have all the fun
yes - doing treatments is generally a pain
just as long as you get it knocked out though - you'll be happy when it's over

[adamanteus]

Can you get Terri to take some pictures, Greg? I want to see you getting musked!:D

[gregmonsta]

Can you get Terri to take some pictures, Greg? I want to see you getting musked!:D

But these are my special snake bonding sessions :rolleyes: ... a private affair to be sure ... :D I'll see what can be arranged ... my arm smells a lot better now ... we'll see what Saturday holds for me. :rolleyes:

[Sid]

Good luck with the treatments. I don't envy you at all.

[gregmonsta]

He seems to be getting along. Just shed today, again both eyecaps present in shed. Both eyes are still not 100% but both look 'clearer'. I'll wait until the antibiotics course is finished and then will consult Romain again. :) sorry James ... no musking pics yet :)

[adamanteus]

:) sorry James ... no musking pics yet :)

Obviously you're not handling him roughly enough!:D

[Snake lover 3-25]

good luck greg!

[gregmonsta]

Well, the antibiotic course finished last Friday and I hade a phone consultation today. Xerxes still has the fluid build up but the fluid is clear. The vet believes that Xerxes must have a blockage of his tear ducts. He says I should wait to see if he returns to feed normally and, if he does, wait until the next shed before deciding further action. This would mean opening and flushing of the eyes although he thinks that as long as there're no signs of any infection, stomatitis or septicemia it's best to let him solve the problem as tearducts can easily be cleared in larger snakes and the procedure involved may proove too difficult with a snake of his size (chances of succes therefore relatively low).
Keeping fingers crossed for the wee man.

[drache]

fingers crossed over here

[gregmonsta]

Thankyou :) ... I want him back to normal asap.

[Snaky]

Fingers crossed here to. Hope it will develop well.

[Snake lover 3-25]

fingers crossed here too!

[k2l3d4]

hope that all goes well.

[gregmonsta]

I have some pictures now of both eyes.

First two - fluid build up behind slightly distended brille.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/1111.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/13.JPG

Second damaged brille also with distention and fluid build up

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/11111.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/112.JPG

[Snake lover 3-25]

ooo man.... if meadow ever looked like that i'd freak!!! glad you took him to the vet!!

[drache]

that is so scary looking
I am really glad you've got a great vet

[guidofatherof5]

Greg,

Is Xerxes still eating? Is the eye problem the only trouble seen? Hoping for the best.

[gregmonsta]

He hasn't resumed eating since the treatment but then he's only missed one feed so far. His mouth was clear of signs of infection but then the Baytril would have kept a lot of infection at bay. I've to give him until next week to see if he'll eat or if he'll trigger another shed cycle to clear the problem.

[gregmonsta]

He ate he ate he ate!!!! :D belly full of salmon :D

[guidofatherof5]

Great news, Greg.
If it were me I'd be excited too. Maybe this is a sign, along the road to recovery.
He's still on our prayer list.
That's great!

[drache]

congrats Greg - that's really exciting
a good sign for recovery

[gregmonsta]

He seems a little more active today too :) long may it continue.

[gregmonsta]

His eyes are still the same but he's been acting every bit his normal self now :) wish I could say the same for J who seems obsessed with finding a girlfriend ... again.

[Snaky]

That looks indeed not so good. Luckily he is still eating good :)

[gregmonsta]

Good news :D .... he shed his skin yesterday .... :D and he's completely back to normal :D!!!!!!

Happy :)

[guidofatherof5]

That's great news.
Well, that's one out of the way, "Come on Sky"

[drache]

congrats Xerxes - all shiny and new and able to see something

[gregmonsta]

Here we go ....

Picture of the shed to show the damage

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/da_shed.JPG

Nice shiny eyes

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/cleareyesclearskys.JPG

He's just gorgeous actually

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/da_boy.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/healthy_lad.JPG

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/curlywurly.JPG

He's the longest of the males .... I'm going to try and measure them all some time soon.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/long_xerx.JPG

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking eyes. I bet she's not the only one who feels better.:rolleyes:

[prattypus]

Congrats- That guy has some length on him. THe background of the pic with the shed looks snakeskin like- Again, I am happy to hear that he's 100%!!!

[Snake lover 3-25]

very cool!!! congrats on the great recovery!!