Calmest Garters

[Glen]

What are the tamest species of Garters, my daughters are interested in Garters and Ribbons but i dont want to get them something that tries to eat them!

[KITKAT]

In my opinion, some T sirtalis (Eastern Garters) are quite tame... but avoid the "Florida Blue" variant. There are several "morphs" of the eastern garter, as well as some beautiful subspecies.

[adamanteus]

Hi Glen,

Many of the Garters you'll see on this forum are not readily available in the UK. If it is for your children you probably don't want to spend a small fortune on one of the more rarely seen species. Might I suggest Checkered Garters Thamnophis marcianus? They are bred in some numbers in the UK, therefore should be easy enough to acquire. Nice looking, easy to care for. They're not too big either!

James.

[adamanteus]

Glen,

You don't mention the age of your daughters, or what their interest in Garters actually is....If they're quite young and if you're looking for a snake which they can handle frequently, Garters would be a poor choice.

I see from your earlier threads that you've been asking around for baby Garters, and yet you want a snake which is placcid enough for a child to handle. I think a baby Garter would be wholy unsuitable in such an instance. They are too small and fragile to be handled by a young child. Might I suggest a sub-adult Royal Python (Python regius). Or perhaps a Corn Snake (Elaphe guttata) as a first snake, both readily available in the UK.

James.

[abcat1993]

but avoid the "Florida Blue" variant.

Why is that? I was either going to get them or a melanistic eastern as my next garter. (According to Scott Felzer, Florida Blues are the biggest of the garters he sells).

[adamanteus]

Florida Blues are notoriously aggressive.

[Thamnophis]

In my case the Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia are the calmest and the Thamnophis atratus atratus are the most nervous.

[drache]

my Plains Garter (Thamnophis radix) is the mellowest and even seems to enjoy hanging out. She's easy in every way.

[ssssnakeluvr]

my melanistic eastern is absolutely calm..however my florida blue is cranky and will bite me (the melanistic is 41 inches long). plains garters and wandering garters are very calm also.

[Stefan-A]

My male parietalis is the calmest I've ever handled, doesn't protest much. It wasn't like that when I got it, it was pretty easily spooked the first months. But I have never seen it show any signs of aggression. None.

[Cazador]

Some of the T.s. concinnus that I've had have been a bit jumpy, and some have even been a bit aggressive. Others have been just great. The T. ordinoides that I've recently acquired are extremely personable. I've only owned four of them, but they've all been GREAT little snakes. They are inquisitive, friendly, and love to be held. It'll be great once a reliable source has been established. I've had T.s. sirtalis that were also very friendly, but these ordinoides are really special. Anybody want to comment about the T.s. infernalis or T. cyrtopsis ocellatus?

[Gijs & Sabine]

In my case the Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia are the calmest and the Thamnophis atratus atratus are the most nervous.

That's funny, our tetrataenia and atratus behave just the opposite from yours, Fons:p

I agree with drache, the plains garters (radix) are in our opinion really quite and easy to handle. We have one huge female that likes to be hold.

I also agree with ssssnakeluvr, our melanistic easterns are also calm and friendly, except when we feed them, then they'll bite for sure.

And to jump in on cazadors reply, our infernalis group (sub-adult) are nice ones also, they're calm and curious.
But the T.cyrtopsis ocellatus is very shy and gets frightened real easy, so that's most certainly not a garter to start with. By the way they're also difficult eaters.

[mikm]

I would say Radix overall as well ... I have owned several variations of this morph and they all had a very nice temperament. I have also found the Red Spots to be quite variable and the nw BLUES to be sweet as Rick mentioned.

marian

[ssssnakeluvr]

I had a wild caught parietalis....big female about 32 inches long....one of the meanest snakes I ever had...she now resides in Scott Felzer's collection. I have one of her babies, a male with orange sides...he's a bit of a nipper until i pick him up, then he's ok. my high red oregon red spots always strike at me when i feed them, were from a wild caught red spot that Brian Eager has. My wild caught red spots are mellow, have never tried to bite.....

[ssssnakeluvr]

there's a pic of the female parietalis on my home page...the big meanie...

[adamanteus]

Just to bring this thread back to Glens' original question....."Which Garter, available in the UK, would make a good starter snakes for his daughters". I got the impression from Glens' earlier threads that his daughters want to handle the snakes, and that he wants to buy babies. With that in mind I would still question the suitability of any Garter. I think baby Garters are just too fragile for small, inexperienced children to handle. Just my opinion.

[drache]

I totally agree - I'd go with adults, or at least year olds.
Babies need a lot of care too and a lot can go wrong very fast.
The first snake I let my daughter handle, was the biggest one I have and it wasn't a Garter.

[Gyre]

My common garter is fairly calm, though I wouldn't say she 'enjoys' being handled. Not unless there's food in it for her.

Still, my friend's ball python is ten times calmer, even with children, and obviously enjoys being held. I feel the size is good too, not scary for most kids.

Hannah

[adamanteus]

I'm with you there Hannah, I think something like a Royal (Ball) Python (Python regius) is more suitable.

[KITKAT]

Why is that? I was either going to get them or a melanistic eastern as my next garter. (According to Scott Felzer, Florida Blues are the biggest of the garters he sells).

I had a number of Florida Blues before Ohio decided they were native to Ohio.:eek:

They would rather strike and bite than be handled, without exception. My 42 inch Florida blue bit my right hand when I was sexing her. She left an imprint in bloody tooth marks where she bit me, which was in the web of the thumb-forefinger. She got my hand all the way into her mouth, and bit so hard that the tooth marks made a perfect imprint of the inside of the roof of her mouth... you could even see where her eyes were, the rows of teeth, etc.

A herper who was teaching me to probe said, "Are you allright?!?" and I replied... "Not the first time I've been bitten, and won't be the last...:rolleyes:

[adamanteus]

Yeah, they sure can bite!! Did you find that you bled more than you might have expected?

[KITKAT]

Yeah, they sure can bite!! Did you find that you bled more than you might have expected?

No, the bleeding was minor, fortunately.:D

[adamanteus]

Right. It's just that I've always been interested in the anti-coagulant faction in all(?) snake species saliva.

[mikm]

morning James ... yes, IMO there is an excessive amount of bleeding when bitten by a Garter. Never gave any thought to an anti-coagulant factor. Makes sense !!

thanks for sharing,
marian

[adamanteus]

That would be a good subject for a whole new thread! Cazador (toxicologist extraordinaire) must be the one to start that though!! Come on Rick, never mind fishing, get typing!!:D

[Cazador]

I haven't done much reading about garter snake venom, but I think Stefan has an interest in it ;). What do you say, Stefan? Anyone else know about garter venom?

Rick

[adamanteus]

I haven't done much reading about garter snake venom, but I think Stefan has an interest in it ;). What do you say, Stefan? Anyone else know about garter venom?

Rick

I don't think "venom" is the word I would use for it. But there is an anti-coagulent faction in the saliva.

[Stefan-A]

I haven't done much reading about garter snake venom, but I think Stefan has an interest in it ;). What do you say, Stefan? Anyone else know about garter venom?

Rick
Huh, what? :D

Still don't know much about the venom, but apparently it's a true venom with at least some level of neurotoxicity. There might have been a problem translating the text, but the book Strumpfbandnattern even seems to mention an LD50.

[Cazador]

For all,

The LD50 is the Lethal dose at which 50% of organisms exposed to, or injected with, a substance die.

If, for example, ten lab mice (that weigh 250g each) were injected with 100 micrograms of chemical, and half of these mice died within five days, the LD50 would be 400 micrograms of chemical per kilo of mouse tissue or 400 parts per billion.

[adamanteus]

I don't know how the dictionary definition of "venom" would read, but to me for it to be a venom it would require a specialised delivery system (fangs, grooved teeth, sting etc). Also, surely the purpose of a venom is to subdue prey prior to ingesting it. In the case of Garters which just seize and swallow, the "venom" is clearly not serving this purpose.

The anti-coagulant however would ensure the puncture wounds caused by swallowing would remain open to allow in ingress of digestive fluids. So it's an aid to digestion.

I can't comment on the neurotoxins that may be present, I haven't read that. However the book Stumpfbandnattern is in the post on it's way to me even as I type! Problem....Ich sprecken keine Deutch...Obviously!!!:D

[drache]

I just found the reference to the toxin in Strumpfbandnattern. It says though that the Gland, which is behind the last tooth in the upper jaw, actually isn't connected to the tooth. So the toxin isn't injected, it kind of works more like a salivary gland.

[Stefan-A]

It's true, it's not injected, but like many other "nonvenomous" snakes, the garters do have enlarged teeth in the back of their jaw. It's a relatively ineffective method of delivering venom, especially when it's as weak as the garter snakes', but it's an old solution and does seem to be effective enough to help subdue struggling prey, even if it's not enough to kill it. It saves energy anyway.

I'd say it's a true venom in the sense that it is produced the same way as the venom of any other venomous snake and does actually contain at least some of the same ingredients (3FTx, which is a neurotoxin). I might be repeating a lot of the things people over at the venomdoc.com forums have said about "nonvenomous" snakes (colubrids) and their venoms, but they seemed quite convincing. I've also only been "investigating" the properties of the venom for less than a week.

[drache]

The book says that the secretion contains some antibacterial substances and they assume that it helps protect the snakes from disease borne by prey;
apparently there is a lot of variation as to the amount of neurotoxin it can contain

[mikm]

Very kind of you to research and share with us Rhea ...

much thanks :)
marian

[adamanteus]

Many nonvenomous snakes, which feed primarily on amphibians have enlarged rear teeth. Heterodon and Dinodon rufozonatum being obvious examples. Many believe this is for the purpose of "deflating" frogs and toads, which have a tendancy to fill themselves with air to make themselves more difficult to swallow. Or is it me that is full of air?!!:D

[drache]

I just got the book a few days ago and I'm so happy - I can't get over it.
i'd ordered it and some others from amazon.de in November and twice it didn't come.
I had to finally provide an address in Germany. Thankfully I never ask my brother for anything and so it wasn't much of an issue for him to be my relay.
What a cool book! Feel free to ask me to look up stuff in it any time - it'll be fun.
Rhea

[Stefan-A]

Many nonvenomous snakes, which feed primarily on amphibians have enlarged rear teeth. Heterodon and Dinodon rufozonatum being obvious examples. Many believe this is for the purpose of "deflating" frogs and toads, which have a tendancy to fill themselves with air to make themselves more difficult to swallow. Or is it me that is full of air?!!:D
Can't comment on that one either. ;)

[Cazador]

Rhea,

I'm green with envy that you can read that book! This is a good opportunity to remind people that I'm gathering data to show the publishers of Strumpfbandnattern (Springer-Verlag) that there would be a market for an English translation of the book. Please have a look at this poll (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/211-strumpfbandnattern.html) and vote accordingly. Cheers,

Rick

[adamanteus]

Already voted in the poll. But I have a cunning plan....I'm going to get Rhea to gradually translate it from German one page at a time! Shhhh! She'll never know!:D

[drache]

I've done some translation before - it's usually done a page at a time.
If nobody else is working on a translation, I sure wouldn't mind doing it. No better way to really steep in the subject, eh?
Not much cunning needed for that one, James.

[drache]

No, I wouldn't pirate.
However - I wonder what it would take to be official about it. I know somebody in the publishing business over here. I'll ask them what's involved. They're in a different literary field, but I'm sure the procedures are the same.
This is such a cool book, it should be available in more languages.

[Cazador]

Maybe Springer-Verlag would even hire you to do the translation, particularily if you already had most of it done.

[drache]

That sounds appealing.
Maybe I should do some sample pages and contact them.
Getting paid some would sure be nice.

[mikm]

hello Rhea ... WOW ... how great would that be ?? I think you should pursue this. IMO this is an all around "win" situation. The publisher stands to gain monetarily and if you do as well it will be even sweeter, lol ;)

much thanks,
marian

[drache]

In the book thread I seem to recall reading somewhere that possibly Jürgen Chlebowy is already working on a translation. If that's the case I certainly wouldn't want to duplicate the work.

[adamanteus]

Surely you're allowed to quote from a book though...as long as reference is made to the fact? You could just quote one page every day!!!:D

[drache]

you're funny
I'll definitely quote from the book ad nauseum
I just love looking stuff up anyway and get excited about finding answers
then I can't keep my mouth shut
haven't you noticed?
oh, and when i get opinionated I can't keep my mouth shut either

[Cazador]

Rhea,

I think this is the thread you were referring to (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/211-strumpfbandnattern.html#post2123). Jurgen would like an English version, but he said it's out of his hands. What we need to do is to show the "publishers" that there would be a market... that it would be economically worthwhile for them to publish the English translation. The question is: How do we convey that message? I think showing them the response from the poll (http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/general-talk/211-strumpfbandnattern.html) is the way to go, but we need a LOT more participation, first. I've already mentioned this effort on Yahoo's garter snake forum, Kingsnake's garter snake forum, and Fauna Classified's garter snake forum.

Also, I think it would work best if the request for the publishers to release an English translation would precede your offer to do the English translation. Any thoughts?

[drache]

absolutely
why would they want something translated that they don't see a market for?
it's a pretty narrow niche

[Cazador]

Now we, as a community, just have to get more of the ~400 members on this and other forums to participate in the poll. How do we get that to happen? It's in all of our best interest.

Rick