Miscarriage ?

[Masticophis]

Hi, new to the forum and also to garter keeping.

Just wondering if anyone has experienced a miscarriage from their garters ?

I have recently swapped a sand snake for an adult pair of albino garters, just after I got them I found some recently expelled blood in the tub. It wasn't feces as it seemed to be pure blood, but fairly congealed. The female had put her nose into it but otherwise both snakes seemed fine. Since then neither has been interested in food, though the male has mated her so that explains his nonfeeding.

I've read that live bearers can get upset and miscarry easily, I was just wondering if this is likely to be what happened. I've not kept live bearers before so not come across it.

Thanks

Mike

[gregmonsta]

Hi Mike, welcome to the forum. I'm sure you'll get some good advice from some of the more experienced keepers here. Did the female look/seem gravid? Was she heavier towards the tail end when you got her? So far the blood could have been a result of mating if you are not sure she definately was pregnant.

[drache]

welcome to the forum, Mike
hm
you're pretty positive that it was blood?
and no visible injury?
I'm not super experienced with reproduction either, but it would seem to me that if it was a miscarriage there'd be more than one and it would not look like congealed blood, so I would venture to guess that it's something else

[Masticophis]

I'm not sure if she was actually mated but they are a proven pair and were kept together. I couldn't say if she was larger at the tail or not as i hadn't taken that much notice of her.

I'm very sure it was blood, red in colour, not a bloody stool either as no feces in it at all. it was however fairly sticky and thick. Only marks of blood on her were a tiny bit on her nose, looks like she had nudged it with her nose. Not something she'd be likely to do with feces.

apart from that they are both fine, not losing any weight at all, he was trying to mate with her a few days later, I've recently seen them locked up as well.

as for miscarriage i think it was an early one if anything, hence only looking like blood.

Mike

[adamanteus]

Hi Mike, and welcome to the forum. Great to welcome a fellow Englishman.:)
I guess the first question is 'How much blood'? That might help to indicate if this was indeed a miscarriage. I must be honest though.... I've never seen miscarriage in a snake, although I dare say it can happen.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

wow, I have never seen that before... did the congealed blood have any shape to it? Like jellybeans? or was it just a mass of blood? Generally, when a female live bearing snake "miscarries", she drops what are commonly called slugs, or jelly beans. I have seen them come in yellow, orange, and blood red and nasty... just a thought!! A miscarriage that a female oviviparous snake like a garter would have, should be different than a true-birth-giving viviparous animal like a cat or a dog (or people), since a female garter snake is actually just long term incubating eggs inside of her body until it's time for the babies to "hatch", the difference being that these eggs lack a hard outer shell because they are not laid until the moment of hatching, but there's no connection between mom and the babies. In a viviparous creature such as a dog, or a person, however, the entire uterine lining is shed because that, along with the amniotic sac, is what is holding the offspring. That's why it comes out looking like a bloody mess, which would be a totally different ordeal than what this snake would expierience. So, theorhetically, I think if your snake did lose the clutch, she should simply have dropped some slimy jellybeans and carry on. I don't think that a bunch of blood is a normal ordeal for a female snake losing her clutch... unless it's accopanied by some little slugs. Sometimes, for one reason or another, they can retain these jellies inside of them and become eggbound, and I imagine that could cause some blood to come out. I would gently palpate the underside of her lower half and see if you can feel anything. Other possibilities include parasite infestation, internal blockage/infection.. or internal injury of some sort. Just throwing some ideas out there! I know when one of my balls had an internal blockage, blood and nothing else was coming out!!!:(

[Masticophis]

It was roughly the size of a large poo.

Hmm how to describe it ? basically just red and thick. I could part it easily, so wasn't flesh, couldn't see any eggs inside it. Like if you have a tooth out and the blood starts to set in your gum, very sticky.

It may have been something else but really I'd have expected to see her in pain or something if she was ill. What makes me think maybe miscarriage was the fact that there was no feces at all in it and that she had investigated it with her nose. Had I thought she was ill then she'd have gone to vets, but would like to know what it was.

My 'Whats wrong with my snake' book by 'John Rossi' says... 'In smaller species of live-bearing snakes, stress, especially in the form of handling, may cause spontaneous abortions'. As she had just been moved from her previous owner to me, with associated tub changes then this may have been a trigger.

She is absolutely fine at the moment, I've just moved my red coachwhip to a new viv with a female so have cleaned the old viv and put the garters in there. Male is hiding like normal but she is busy wandering around.

I'll try to get a few pics of them sometime. They are the parents to garterprincess's albinos.

Mike

[adamanteus]

Beats me, Mike. But worth keeping a very close eye on. As Shannon said, I would expect to see something more substantial if she aborted.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If you think she seems fine, that's very good! Just keep a close eye on both of them. She may have investigated it because blood often elicits a feeding response... especially with my garters!!! I just would think that if she were aborting, you should be seeing the infertile eggs, maybe they are still to come?! I am wondering if maybe there weren't a few, and he or she ate them... I would not put that past a garter! Just keep a close watch, make sure she is pooping normally, eating like normal, etc. Eggbinding, if it were such, can overcome them very quickly. A seemingly totally healthy snake can suddenly fall ill and drop dead in less than 24 hours from eggbinding! I watched my poor spookey go through it a few years ago :( Just watch for a sudden occurrence of restlessness followed by lethargy, unusual limpness when being handled, etc. Hopefully, it was nothing detrimental!

[Sputnik]

Hello and a warm welcome to you, Mike. :)

Have a look at the gallery on this page, scroll about three quarters down (ID 85):

EGSA.de - European Garter Snake Association (http://www.egsa.de)

It didn't look like that by any chance?

[Masticophis]

Hello and a warm welcome to you, Mike. :)

Have a look at the gallery on this page, scroll about three quarters down (ID 85):

EGSA.de - European Garter Snake Association (http://www.egsa.de)

It didn't look like that by any chance?

No sorry not at all, just sticky blood, look at pic 77 that is similar, though obviously out of the snake and no eggs or anything in with the blood.

I'm not worried about the snake at all, this is all over a month ago so i'm happy she is fine, just was wondering what it may have been.

Currently have both watching me from different corners of their new viv.

Mike

[Sid]

Sorry that I ccan't add anything helpful for you, Mike, but I do want to welcome you to a great forum.