Legitimate release/repopulation programs

[mtolypetsupply]

Is anyone a part of anything like this?

If so, please share:

how you got into it
what agencies you worked with
what protocols you had for acquiring/breeding/keeping/releasing
volunteer or paid
established program or were you a pioneer

and anything else you can share

[adamanteus]

Can I just point out that the indiscriminate release of captive Garters (or any fauna) is not only illegal, it is harmful to the local eco-system and may well be detremental to any existing local Garter population.
I strongly advise that no one enter into any kind of well meaning but ill-advised 're-population programme'. It won't work. At best the animals you release will die. At worst half the local fauna will die. If there are few (or no) Garters local to you, there will be a very good reason for that. You can't just flood an area with snakes and expect a population to develop.

I'm sure that's not what you were advocating, Stephi. I just wanted to 'put that out there'.

[Stefan-A]

Habitat loss is the #1 threat to reptiles and amphibians. If you want to help them, protecting the habitat is the one thing you need to focus on.

[gregmonsta]

I don't think you'll find any programs close to what you're looking for. Even in the case of the giant garter snake the focus has been on habitat conservation above all. It's been discussed with tetratania as well ... you just don't know that it wouldn't have a detrimental effect.

[mtolypetsupply]

I find it very interesting that everyone who said there aren't any programs like that in the USA all live across the pond....

In our area, we have had coyote reintroduction programs, raccoon capture/vaccinate/release programs, fish reintroduction/stocking, not to mention the other programs across the country, such as the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone. Bison were endangered, and are now so plentiful they are a food source, because of captive breeding efforts. And integrated pest management is all about introducing living things that are beneficial to the environment into locales where they did not exist before, or did not exist in as plentiful numbers to create the desired impact.

How can one advocate something if they are asking others merely to share experiences?

Actually, about the tetrataenia, the last study I read said they were looking for MORE captive breeding projects, and released populations. It seems because they are "only" garters there is no funding, and many hobbyists have been told that we're "only [stupid (implied)] hobbyists," so we feel defeated and don't pursue it. I personally believe that I have met some of the smartest people as garter hobbyists, and that it's a shame we often feel so discouraged because we love "just garters".

So not one member studies at a school that even explores the idea? Not one person on here is a wildlife official who knows about these kinds of reintroduction programs, and can even *hypothesize* about it? Not even one "I wish they had something like that here, I loved seeing them in the wild and don't anymore" post??????

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol i wish they had that here..... the population im my area has gone down alot since recent housing developments have started....:(

[Stefan-A]

Actually, about the tetrataenia, the last study I read said they were looking for MORE captive breeding projects, and released populations.
Would you happen to have a link or a title handy?


many hobbyists have been told that we're "only [stupid (implied)] hobbyists,"Frankly, that's what we are. Without proper control and guidance from professionals, it's pointless to dabble in nature conservation. In fact, it's likely to be counter-productive and potentially devastating.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

All I can really add to this is what james already mentioned: if there are not a large number of garter snakes thriving in an area. There is a reason for it. Garters will thrive ANYWHERE, provided there is steady supply of clean food, water, and shelter. If they no longer live in a certain area, surely they once did and they simply died off or moved on for one reason or another. Human interventions, forest fires, bodies of water leaving, or changing course, are all reasons things like that can happen.

For one, I will say that I live right smack next to a man made massive dam (its made out of sand, dirt and grass though, probably about 1/2 to 3/4 a mile long) that cuts across a big creek and simply prevents a highway a few miles away from flooding when we get massive rains. The area surrounding is a wildlife reserve and is totally off limits to fishing, collection of specimens, etc. I have been down in there many times simply for observation purposes, and in my younger years, could never figure out why there were absolutely no snakes, turtles, birds nests... nothing!! Until I went to the other side and found all of these things in abundance. I love going down in there in the spring and watching the water snakes breed. after that I realized that the reason that no snakes populate the other side is because a few times a year, it massively, and I mean massively, floods and turns into a lake for a few days... complete with tree-tops sticking out of the water's surface. Some people would go down in there, see how barren it is, and want to "repopulate". The animals avoid that area on purpose, even the birds, because every time it floods, every living thing in there is either drowned, or forced up and away. This is my example of an unstable habitat. It's only one example of one type of unstable habitat, but you get my point (I hope).... It's my educated opinion that release programs would do absolutely no good for even the san-francisco garters. Simply because their habitat is diminishing and far too close to far too many dangers and morons. A released coyote or condor is far less likely to be smushed on a road or have its head mashed off with a shovel. So maybe reintroduction tings work with larger birds and mammals, but for reptiles, especially snakes, I see it as a waste of time. A snake is a snake to many people, especially ones with shovels and small children. The San Fran actually has a LOT of publicity, I know many people who will associate garter snake with them and ask me if I have any "of that endangered one". I wholeheartedly believe they are doomed as a separate subspecies, and that they will eventaully fade out and intergrade into infernalis for good.

[mtolypetsupply]

Link to original plan:

http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/recovery_plan/850911.pdf

Looking for subesquent reveiws

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have heard of no breeding/repopulation programs for reptiles...unfortunately they aren't as "popular" as reintroducing wolves or condors. those types of aniimals get better recognition, therefore more support. the main thing with reptiloe populations is conservation of habitat. putting snakes where there are no snakes will generally end up with no snakes there in the future as they will die or get eaten.

[Stefan-A]

Link to original plan:

http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/recovery_plan/850911.pdf

Looking for subesquent reveiws
http://www.fws.gov/cno/es/San%20Francisco%20Garter%20Snake%205%20Year%20Revi ew.FINAL.pdf

Recommendations for future actions:
- Development of an updated recovery plan and an expanded San Francisco garter snake working group
- Encourage conservation among private landowners
- Continue ongoing habitat restoration and enhancement for wild populations
- Complete captive holding facilities for use in head starting programs, the restoration of world-wide zoo populations, and as temporary lodging during habitat maintenance
- Increase research of population trends, demography, and phylogenetics
- Increase law enforcement at vulnerable locations

[mtolypetsupply]

I wholeheartedly believe they are doomed as a separate subspecies, and that they will eventaully fade out and intergrade into infernalis for good.


Interesting you mention that. In one of the reviews of the management plans for tetrataenia, it was posited that locale is truly the only difference between the two, but:

1. There was no funding for the DNA tests to study them
2. If merged with infernalis, it was implied that it would be a political nightmare, with the habitat set aside for them no longer required.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Interesting you mention that. In one of the reviews of the management plans for tetrataenia, it was posited that locale is truly the only difference between the two, but:

1. There was no funding for the DNA tests to study them
2. If merged with infernalis, it was implied that it would be a political nightmare, with the habitat set aside for them no longer required.

I was actually speaking at the Hamburg show with a very good friend of Phil Blais (his name was Don) about just that. It was really cool to meet him, he just happened to see me standing at the table holding my infernalis and asked me how I had acquired it. We talked about how it is very much likely that tetrataenia are actually just a striped locale of infernalis, much like I know of locale's where all the eastern's are totally stripeless.

[adamanteus]

Of course, Rossman advocates the elimination of tetrateania as a distinct sub-species.

[Stefan-A]

Actually, about the tetrataenia, the last study I read said they were looking for MORE captive breeding projects, and released populations.
"At present it does not appear necessary to captively propagate SFGS to enhance or increase the number of populations." p. 47
http://ecos.fws.gov/docs/recovery_plan/850911.pdf

Granted, it was 2½ decades ago.

[adamanteus]

I think we're wandering away from the point a bit. The reintroduction of CB Garter Snakes is illegal and counter-productive, let's not do it or advocate it, guys.

[snakeman]

I am pretty sure they released a bunch of captive eastern indigos in florida.It was like 15 years ago.I am pretty sure all turned up dead or never found again.

[mtolypetsupply]

'nuff said.

[snakeman]

We had another thread on this a couple of months ago.

[adamanteus]

We had another thread on this a couple of months ago.

Dig deep enough, I think you'll find a few:rolleyes:, the basic facts remain... it's illegal and it doesn't work.

[Stefan-A]

Dig deep enough, I think you'll find a few:rolleyes:, the basic facts remain... it's illegal and it doesn't work.
I'd like to emphasize that part. The number of individuals is rarely the problem, it's just a symptom and then increasing the numbers is just going to make things worse. Anyway, there have indeed been other discussions and more detailed explanations can probably be found there.

[mtolypetsupply]

These opinions make me wonder, then, why the NJDEP insisted as a part of our contract that we hired herpetologists (the company used degreed biologists and non-degreed individuals) to catch herps from our jobsite at the exit 69 interchange on the Garden State Parkway to release in another location. They seemed to feel that removing them from a construction site and moving them to an appropriate safe location was a valid reason for release. Not every release or repopulation effort is about introducing a species where none is found, or into a foreign area. And since it was NJDEP protocol, perhaps a herper on here could have participated in something like that in their home area, or while an intern in school. Perhaps it was as part of herp society volunteer work.

With the economic stimulus package of Barack Obama having a good portion earmarked for infrastructure projects, there could be some opportunities to volunteer or create our own volunteer opportunities with local agencies. If anyone had already participated in that, they could help guide those of us who were interested in contacting the appropriate agencies, and get things started for others who wanted to design a volunteer effort where none exists. And, the herpetologists were actually paid to be at our jobsite. Perhaps someone would be interested in starting a business, seeking those gov't contracts, etc.

I don't see how it's illegal, if you are working with the DEP or FWS. And if it doesn't work, perhaps you could provide studies from legitimate agencies/scholarly journals so that we can start to lobby our government? If it's not working, I'd like them to stop spending money on it, that's for sure!

[Stefan-A]

These opinions make me wonder, then, why the NJDEP insisted as a part of our contract that we hired herpetologists (the company used degreed biologists and non-degreed individuals) to catch herps from our jobsite at the exit 69 interchange on the Garden State Parkway to release in another location. They seemed to feel that removing them from a construction site and moving them to an appropriate safe location was a valid reason for release.
I think we're talking about something completely different here. That's relocation, not captive breeding and release. It's just about getting a few individuals out of harm's way.

[snakeman]

even when you relocate.They usually die.Big waste of time and money.It's just a cover so they can build where they want.

[Stefan-A]

even when you relocate.They usually die.Big waste of time and money.It's just a cover so they can build where they want.
Many of them do die, but that's still (marginally) better than leaving them where they'll die for certain, from an animal welfare perspective. But I agree it's a waste of time and money from a nature conservation perspective, although I'd love to be proven wrong.

[MasSalvaje]

In our area, we have had coyote reintroduction programs, raccoon capture/vaccinate/release programs, fish reintroduction/stocking, not to mention the other programs across the country, such as the reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone. Bison were endangered, and are now so plentiful they are a food source, because of captive breeding efforts. And integrated pest management is all about introducing living things that are beneficial to the environment into locales where they did not exist before, or did not exist in as plentiful numbers to create the desired impact.

Something that has been touched on but not explained is why the Reintroduction plans that you have stated have been successful is the reason they were taken away in the first place. *Note, not all reintroduction programs have been a success, some have devastating results, such as is the case in many of the fish introductions here in the West.

Bison, Wolves, Coyotes, and even the American Aligator were all put in jeopardy by over hunting, not by habitat loss. Leaving plenty of natural range for these animals to expand and grow naturally to previous numbers after a bit of a jump start from us. In the case of habitat loss there is much less we can do to help jumpstart the process because there is no natural land to exand. The example I will show with that is the American Crocodile. They will never reach the numbers they were previous or any where near the numbers of Gators because they have no where to go. There has been many of the same reintroduction programs with the Crocs and Gators, so why has one been so much more successful than the other? Again it is the reason for the numbers declining in the first place.

-Thomas