Rodent diet

[adamanteus]

Okay, so we all know how convenient it is to feed our animals rodents, if they'll take them, nice square meal: flesh, bone, vitamins and minerals all rolled into one easy to use package.. Okay many Garters will take young rodents in the wild if they get the opportunity, but how frequently this might occur, is questionable.

Just to play "devils advocate" here, and maybe start an interesting thread. Perhaps we should consider an animals' natural diet more thoroughly, before we embark on a feeding regime of solely (or predominantly) mice? For many larger Garter specimens, this diet may well be suitable, but what about for smaller species or individuals, or species which just don't take rodents in the wild?

How about the risk of impaction in the lower gut from excessive hair? I speak from experience when I say that this can occur, and when it does it can be fatal. (I've never seen it occur with Thamnophis, but I don't know why they would be any different?) Could toxins build up over a long period of time in the blood/tissues from such a foreign diet? I don't know.

Here's a thing.....In the UK we had the recent outbreak of CJD (mad cow disease). For years the beef industry had been feeding cattle high protein pellets made from chickens' feet and recycled human excrement :eek: (who knew?), this gave a high beef yield and dispensed with the need for grassy fields. All went well for who knows how long, and then sudddenly...well, the rest is history.

It's just a thought. I use rodents and will continue to do so, but maybe I'll build a worm farm and encourage frogs into my garden by digging a pond to give a bit more variety and to offer a more natural diet.

I hope I haven't offended anyone, but I think it's good to question what we read, rather than to follow blindly :). Thanks,

James.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have fed my babies pinkie parts at a small size and worked them on to whole rodents as soon as they are big enough. I have never had a problem with that. Scott Felzer does the same. I wouldn't use amphibians as they can transmit parasites. giving a variety is fine also. i have never heard of any toxins or anything building up in garters. I know wandering garters are big on eating rodents inthe wild.
I have never had any impactions in garter snake guts feeding this or any diet....they routinely digest bones in dmall amphibians and fish in the wild so I don't think there's a problem with that. The only impactions I have seen are when substrate is swallowed.

[adamanteus]

I have seen numerous cases of hair impaction (never seen bone) in reptiles from a diet of "fuzzies" (I'm not sure what you call newly furred mice in the US). As I say, never in Thamnophis, but surely it's worth considering.

As I said previously, some of the larger Thamnophis species may well eat rodents in the wild, but certainly not all species.

Yes, I agree, amphibians can carry parasites, but wild snake populations can cope with this, even we humans carry them. At least with our captive specimens we can treat for parasites if it becomes necessary. It seems to me that many reptile species are popular with pet keepers because of their ability to adapt to the artificial live-style we impose upon them, but should we be making them adapt or should we be adapting our husbandry techniques to better suit them?

[drache]

my vet advocates variety, since that most closely recreates what happens in nature.
So while I feed primarily rodents, I do try to give them something els at least once a month.
My rodent supplier also advised me to feed garters nothing hairier than peach fuzzies, because of the possibility of impaction

[adamanteus]

I think your vet is very wise then. I believe that if we try to mimic nature as closely as we can we won't go far wrong. Mother Nature has much to teach us, if we will only take the time to learn.

[Thamnophis]

I believe that the amount of rodents that are eaten in the wild by Thamnophis is very low.
Cannot prove that, but that is what I believe.
I think the chance that they find (accidentally) a nest with pinkies is not that great. But when they do, they probably will eat them.
I doubt if a gartersnake easily can catch an adult mouse. Catching a live, wild mouse looks like a big risk for a garter snake getting injured. Fish, amphibians and worms are much easier.
When they find a dead mouse, maybe they will eat it.

Every specimen that I take care of gets every feeding:

1 pinky
Smelt
Some pieces of chickenheart
These items are all dusted with some Minerall indoor, Gistocal and Carmix.

When available they get every now and then one or two worms.

My snakes are all juveniles. When they grow bigger I will change the pinky for a bigger mouse.

[KITKAT]

I am not suggesting by the following anecdote, that eating pinkies in the wild is common... but...

Two years ago, I captured a gravid female T sirtalis under a board. She was lying in a shrew runway, with her head sticking out one end of a shrew nest, her tail out the other end...

The nest was empty.:confused: :p

She later birthed 20 young.

[Stefan-A]

Mice, fish and worms. Amphibians and birds aren't an option, too expensive to buy, too expensive to catch and too much trouble to breed.

It seems to me that many reptile species are popular with pet keepers because of their ability to adapt to the artificial live-style we impose upon them, but should we be making them adapt or should we be adapting our husbandry techniques to better suit them?
It's certainly a good question, but in nature they are always living under less than optimal conditions. Should we say that those conditions suit them, or that they just tolerate them?

[drache]

It's true - nature does not always provide ideal conditions.
Part of me feels though that there is an aspect of hubris to our thinking that we absolutely know what's best for them.
What if there is some odd nutrient in a worm or slug they do need?
As humans, it seems, we often feel that the latest piece of knowledge is the end-all. Then some other piece comes along.
I'd be very careful, not to assume that we can surpass nature with the information we have right now.

[Stefan-A]

Can't say that I completely agree with that, I feel that most people do realize that we don't know everything yet. But it's true, we do act as if the latest piece of knowledge is the end-all. We don't really have a choice, we can't just ignore it either.

I'd be careful anthropomorphising nature, too.

[Snaky]

I try to give some variety with the feeding sessions. Most of the time the food consists of pinkies/fuzzies, catfood, smelt or another fish and earthworms. (With B1 or Ca or multivitamin addition)

Yes, I agree, amphibians can carry parasites, but wild snake populations can cope with this, even we humans carry them. At least with our captive specimens we can periodically treat for parasites.
This is not a good idea in my opinion. Treating your snakes for parasites every several months doesn't seem all that healthy at all. It's always stressful and you need to take good care of the dose's. I think it's better to provide alternatives, and you have enough possibilities to alternate.

[drache]

I guess I hadn't read that part about the periodic parasite treatments.
That seems very unappealing to me.
There is that story about the Chinese doctor who was asked to participate in an asthma study. He said the way to treat these patients was to stop inducing the asthma.
I would not give anything to my animals with a plan to treat them later for possible fallout.
But I do wish I could offer my snakes the occasional amphibian without worry. Since I can't, I don't.
I have no desire to raise feeder frogs, but I do often wish, someone would.

[GarterGuy]

Like a lot of people on the forum, I feed a diet of primarily rodents, but supplement with other prey items to add variety to the diet. I do wonder about the affects of a rodent diet on a group of snakes that does not specialize in rodent feeding.
I say specialize, because there are many examples of Thamnophis to do feed on rodents....as was stated before, T.e.vagrans often prey on rodents....I imagine this is due to the fact that they can be found far from what is considered "typical" Thamnophis haibtat where the amphibians and fish that so many others prey on can be found. There are also reports of insular populations of Maritime garters (T.s.pallidulus) that are the primary predators of rodents on those islands. I think that garters for the most part can be called generalized feeders that specialize in what ever prey item is most available for them in their habitat.
As far as garters being able to take on adult rodents, many other nonconstritors take on adult rodents...like racers. Now it's a big garter that's going to take on an adult mouse, since it's got to kill it by just biting it or smashing it into stuff.
I think the problem with possible impactions due to fur and stuff is due to the fact that we feed our snakes bigger mice then they could have possibley ever eaten in the wild. Personally, I don't feed any of my garter snakes mice that are much larger than twice the size of their head. I may have to feed more than one a feeding, but I think this is easier on them. So yeh, there's my two cents on the whole thing (that's a long paragraph for two cents!:D ).
Roy

[KITKAT]

When I feed rodents, I never exceed ten days old. That means that I may feed two pinkies rather than an older mouse, and when a snake needs to graduate to something quite larger, I use rat pinkies.

[drache]

rat pinkies! What a great idea. I'll try that.
I do have a kingsnake who will not take rats. Something about the smell?

[ssssnakeluvr]

I use rat pinkies a lot....I cut off the legs (they are frozen/thawed) andfeed them with fish to the smaller ones until they are big enough for pinkies. only the large adults eat adult mice. i do give fish also, i found a store that stocks rainbow trout year round so i stock up and freeze them after cutting into chunks.

[Thamnophis]

When my snakes are older and bigger I change also to ratpinkies.

Bottomline probably is that gartersnakes are opportunistic feeders that eat everything they can get a hold on.

[GarterGuy]

rat pinkies! What a great idea. I'll try that.
I do have a kingsnake who will not take rats. Something about the smell?

That wouldn't happen to be your PI king would it??? Mine won't take rats either!

[mikm]

Early on when I first acquired Garters, two different, very reputable breeders swore they had lost Garters after feeding them what they felt (afterwards) was too large a prey item (rodent). As such I have always erred on the side of caution and fed small fuzzies at the most. BTW my "Blue" Garter male will not take pinks, so much so that he does grab them from the bowl then spits them out. I put it back in with his fish, he removes it, lol ... Both of the girls however now readily eat the pinks as do my Red Spots. Actually all of the Garters I have owned converted to rodents, even the WC E. Black Neck babies I had converted from thawed leapord frog pieces to pink parts.

Good topic :) ...

[drache]

That wouldn't happen to be your PI king would it??? Mine won't take rats either!

Precisely that one. He recoils the moment he gets near enough to smell it.

[OregonHerpaholic]

I have no desire to raise feeder frogs, but I do often wish, someone would.

As a frog owner, I have tried to breed for pet frogs.. NOT an easy task. If anyone did captive breed small, feeder frogs, they would be way too expensive to afford.. Almost all species have to be conditioned to breed.. this is creating a drought like fall, a COLD winter, and then a heavy early springlike rain.. and then the daunting task of raising the tadpoles, Which would require lots of space, time, and knowledge to figure it out.. Even something as simple as a pacman(Horned Frog) would take time and space to mass breed.


SO MUCH EASIER to go out a catch a bunch and toss in freezer.. many eastern hognose keepers do this.. I have done this with juvenile bullfrogs.. BUT you might be able to find frog breeders who need to cull thier brood.. I know a few Red-eye tree frog breeders who sell to hognose breeders..too many babies, make great feeders..


???

[OregonHerpaholic]

For years the beef industry had been feeding cattle high protein pellets made from chickens' feet and recycled human excrement

Ewwww.. I think I need to be a vegetarian... And I do not wish to know what they feed vegetables...I can pretend they are pure..

[drache]

BTW my "Blue" Garter male will not take pinks, so much so that he does grab them from the bowl then spits them out. I put it back in with his fish, he removes it, lol

That sounds like a cat I used to have, who would pull pit the towel from under the food bowl and throw it on top, whenever I fed them tuna.

[drache]

Even something as simple as a pacman(Horned Frog) would take time and space to mass breed.

That's too bad.
I know that where I grew up, it sometimes seemed that nature itself was breeding them primarily as a feeder item.
Their survival rate, from egg to frog, must be something like two out of a hundred, if that much.
Btw - there's a special word for frog eggs in German (Laich) - is there one in English?

[CrazyHedgehog]

Btw - there's a special word for frog eggs in German (Laich) - is there one in English?

Frogspawn!

[drache]

spawn - that's the word
thanks
sounds a bit creepy

[adamanteus]

I have collected a mass of frogspawn this year. My intention is to rear the tadpoles on fish food and daphnia. Then, when I have a thousand little froglets, I will freeze them for baby Garter food.

[snakeman]

I have a hard time getting my snakes to take rat pinks.Even when I drench them in fish guts.

[Snaky]

You can always try scenting them with earthworms. Some snakes really love earthworms, so you can always give it a try.

But it's not necessary for them to accept pinkies to create a healthy diet.:)

[drache]

try mice
apparently there is a distinct difference in smell

one of my kingsnakes recoils from rats, but readily takes mice
I've thought of going through the whole scenting process with him
unlike the conversion from fish to pinkies, there's no nutritional advantage I know of
I can just feed him an extra mouse now and then

[OregonHerpaholic]

Frogspawn!

I once had a cane toad I called SPAWN... Spawn of Toad... Toadally fitting for the species...

[RedSided]

There is a lake I go to fish at and every year there are thousands of little frogs just at the bank, would it be a good idea to catch some and feeze them?

Also,does freezing kill paresites?

[adamanteus]

Personally, I do use frogs as Garter food. But I think I am in the minority because of the fear of introducing parasites. I don't think that freezing would guarantee killing off any parasites. Other members may have different opinions on that though.

[abcat1993]

I guess you could dissect a few frogs from that area, find all the parasites you can and freeze them to find out if they'd die or not. Again, wouldn't guarantee but better than risking I guess, although some I'd assume are microscopic, if not most.

[CrazyHedgehog]

I feed garden worms as treats.. surely they are likely to have parasites too...? adamantus...what type of frogs? just ones you find or do you breed them?

[adamanteus]

adamantus...what type of frogs? just ones you find or do you breed them?

I rear froglets from spawn sometimes. I know everyone says it's risky because of parasites, but I use frogs I find too. Not had a problem so far.

[Cazador]

In general, things higher up on the food web are more likely to be parasitized than things lower on the food web, but frogs and salamanders are at special risk because they're "consumers," and they live in prime habitat for parasites. For example, a single worm might be parasitized, but a frog that lives in water could become parasitized directly from the water OR become parasitized by eating a parasitized worm, bug, smaller amphib, etc. Younger frogs are less likely to carry as heavy of a burden as an older frog. Even knowing this, I sometimes feed live fish. I think it's a personal decision, but you should be informed about your decision.

[poissonguppy]

Well, on the rodent topic... Has anyone had a snake fed only on a rodent diet and have the snake suddenly die? I've heard stories about how owners feed snakes only goldfish and a year later, the snake will just conk out. I have never owned a snake long enough to see warning signs that a snake might die, either of old age or something else. I guess what I'm asking is, has anyone had a rodent fed snake die suddenly, like a fish fed snake?

If I'm not being clear enough, just ask.

[RedSided]

On a goldfish only diet im not supprised you've head stories of snakes dying :eek: , goldfish are a no no realy, as its been said before they are not nutritionally sound enough. (and I think they contaion thiaminase, I may be wrong there)

Good conditioned mice however generally have everything a snake needs and need only be fed once a week,of course you can supplement the diet with other things.
I see no reason why a snake should suddely die from eating mice.

[adamanteus]

I don't know about "sudden death", but I think it ill advised to feed rodents to a Garter, exclusive of other food types. It's not their natural diet. I think the concensus of opinion on this forum is that vagrans is probably the only Garter to regularly take mice in the wild.

[RedSided]

It is very much an opinion between owners to be honest.

If you want to feed fish, feed the right type of fish.Depending on what fish , vitamin suplements may be needed.

If you want to feed mice, supplement with other food items such a chicken heart,worms,fish:p ,gatrter grub(which is starting to become quite popular).

[drache]

I've heard about garter grub, but haven't found any place I could get the stuff to try it out

[GarterGuy]

Yeh, used to be around several years ago, but I think the US market pretty much dried up for it......haven't seen it in a very long time.
Roy

[adamanteus]

RedSided, where do you get your GarterGrub? And what do you think of it? As Roy says, I haven't seen it for years, but then again I haven't been looking for it!

[Jenlang_79]

Wow..this is a very interesting thread..I have never looked at these things from this point of view!! Kudo's to you Adamanteaus for posting this, very interesting!!:D

[infernalis]

Ditto from me:)

Emulating nature has worked for my pets, My little dekays will only eat worms and slugs and Xena has been with us for 3 years, and is still very healthy.

I just happen to be lucky enough to actualy own some wetlands, so gathering up tadpoles, newts, toads and frogs is too easy.

Also a prime location to go herping:D

Regards,
Wayne A. Harvey

snakes (http://www.reformedsniper.net/snakes.html)

[gregmonsta]

I feed pinkies and trout at each feeding .... usually one mouse pink and two pink sized pieces of trout ...
When I had my ribbons I stuck to the diet prescribed by the lab technician which was definately alien to the normal garter pallet - boiled cod or haddock, backed up with vitamins in the water and the occaisional worm treats. I even fed small toads a few times with no ill effects and also resorted to cat food once or twice.
I live in the city now so toads/frogs/worms are hard to come by but I think our garters are doing so well on trout and pinks that I don't have to worry about supplementing extra food items (although I will remember to raid my mothers garden next time I'm there).

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I am sure everyone will come across fussy eaters. Individual species, ssp., CB's or WC's all may have slightly different preferences.

I can only speak for NW California WC's: The two ssp. of sirtalis in our area (CA Red-sided and Valley Garter) are somewhat opportunistic (frogs, tadpoles [some are immune to toad and newt toxins as well] as well as fish, small mammals and rarely small birds. Many young garters of most species take worms and leeches. T. ordinoides (Northwestern Garter) prefers slugs, earthworms, tadpoles, froglets, small terrestrial salamanders (Aneides) and occasionally small fish. T. atratus hydrophilus (Oregon Garter) has an exclusively aquatic diet: Most larval amphibians (larval Dicamptodon are "highly prized"), frogs, , and fish; they are the best swimmers of all Thamnophis, and I have seen adults take down trout, sculpin, or suckerfish up to 10 inches long! The [I]T. elegans clade (elegans, terrestris, and vagrans [Mtn, Coast, and Wandering]) is known for being one of the most opportunistic groups: amphibians and fish will be taken, but these terrestrial garters are ALL famous for hunting small rodents, lizards, and smaller snakes (even cannibalism), and perhaps small birds.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Oregon Garter with a suckerfish (This one was actually a bit too large to handle, and my approach caused a regurgitation....)

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/2007-07-19HCHSimage-Oregon_Garter_Snake_feeding_Matthew_s_Creek-So._Fk._Salmon_River-Siskiyou_County_.JPG

[jeanette]

This thread has certainly got my brain working, thanks for bringing this up James its definately worth more than just one look. just as a question here, could the fish be important as a diuretic? fish oils have long been known for the effect they have on a healthy digestive system, is it possible that with a rodent only diet that Garters do not have the necessary oils to maintain a healthy bowel and so you get the hair impaction that you mentioned earlier?

[KITKAT]

Fish are also full of fatty acids. Could this aid digestion?

But what about garters that live here on my property? There are absolutely no fish present, yet they are quite large and healthy. I know they are eating frogs and nightcrawlers as staple dietary items.

[Lori P]

Wonder if frogs contain more oils & fatty acids???