my mystery snake

[drache]

We took some photos yesterday with my daughter's cheapo camera.
Not great, but perhaps somewhat useful.
This afternoon I might have a visitor with real camera . . .

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=572
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=571
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=570
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/showphoto.php?photo=569

I was trying to get the photos themselves into the post, but couldn't figure out how to do that.

In my album there's also a couple of nice pics of two other household members

[adamanteus]

Looks pretty much like Thamnothis sauritus nitae to me, I'm going off the lack of vertebral stripe. It's difficult to see in the photos; is there any blue colouration in the side stripes?

James.

[Stefan-A]

Anything at all that you could tell us about the snake?

Are you sure it's a thamnophis? ;) Looks a bit like a ribbon, though.

[drache]

I got this snake at the local store, where it was in a tank of Garters.
The sales clerk told me that it had come in with a shipment of garters and that he had kept it for a while, but he didn't want to bother with Garters any more, so he brought his entire collection (3 snakes) back to the store.
He told me it was a Vine Snake. The snake has some dark scarring on one side which I suspect were caused be heat rocks. I will refrain here from voicing my opinion of the sales clerk.
The colouring, which hard to see in the photos, is olive and yellow - no blue whatsovever.
I do think it's a ribbon snake, because I saw this picture of a Thamnophis proximus rubrilineatus on Wikipedia and at first glance it looked totally like my snake (poor eye-sight). But then I realized that this would still be true, if that red stripe was more brown.
Who breeds these guys anyway?
The no comment sales clerk told me it was captive bred, but coming from him I don't take that to mean anything.
Of all the food items offered, the snake is only interested in fish. Good hunter.

[Sid]

:cool: I would guess this to be T. sauritus sauritus " Eastern Ribbon". The color is correct and it's not uncommon for them to lack a dorsal strip.

Sid

[drache]

in the Bartlett book - Garter and Ribbon Snakes - there's a portrait on the bottom of page 33 of a Gulf Coast ribbon Snake from near Brownsville,TX. That is the colouring of my snake - except that the dorsal stripe which does start out yellow at the head, turns into a dull brownish olive after (can't check right now) about 5-10mm.

[drache]

I forgot to mention the eyes.
They have that reddish-golden rim around the pupil - very pretty

[Cazador]

Hi Rhea,

I'm certainly not one of the people you want to rely on for snake ID info, but if it's a ribbon snake, its upper labials will be whitish. There will also be a vertical white bar immediately in front of the eyes. These characteristics (as well as general body shape) distinguish garter snakes from ribbon snakes.

All,
Are there any ribbon snakes that lack these features?

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I can't see any white bar in front of the eye because the picture is so blurry, but the supralabials are whitish, or at least there are no markings present. And the lateral stripe is high enough for it to be a ribbon.

Thought "Masticophis" for a second there, but it seemed wrong after looking at a couple of pics. Anyway, they should have the same bar in front of the eye as the ribbon snakes.

[drache]

there is nothing white on this snake anywhere, but in front of the left eye there is a thin, bright, pale yellow vertical stripe. On the right side there's just a little spot though.

[ssssnakeluvr]

it looks like a ribbon to me...not real sure which specific species it so tho....

[GarterGuy]

Ok, let's take a look at some things here (yeh, time to do some scalation checks)....let's look at all the species that share similar colour and shape. If it's a whipsnake, Masticophis sp., it will have a divided anal plate, and it's scales will be smooth and in 15 rows. If it's a Brown vine snake, Oxybelis aeneus (the only native species), scale rows are 17, only two postocular scales, 8-10 upper labials, and no loreal scale (didn't find info. as to whether anal plate is single or divided....hard to find good scale info. on these guys, since they just barely enter the US). As for the ribbon, it will have a single anal plate, scales that are keeled in 19 rows, 7-8 upper labials (two touch the eye) and three postocular scales. Figure let's find out what genus it is and then we can work on a possible species and subspecies.
Roy

[drache]

alright.
My eyesight isn't that great, even with the magnifying glass, but . . .
The scales are definitely keeled and after three times counting, Im pretty sure it's 19 rows. It's hard to see the postoculars - too tiny. Upper labials - 7. Single anal plate.
Also - there's more daylight today, so I can see that there is actually a dorsal stripe - it's just a really dark copper colour.
Hope that helps.

[adamanteus]

Still sounds like T. sauritus to me! Even more so with the upper labial count.

James.

[Thamnophis]

Still sounds like T. sauritus to me! Even more so with the upper labial count.

James.

I agree with James.

By the way... scalecounting is the easiest when you use a shedding for it.

[Valley Pets]

Yup.. Totally agree folks....
Ryan-Valley Pets

[GarterGuy]

OK, from all that it's sounding like it's a ribbon....now the species part of it. From looking through the text I've got and the pics you posted....I'm going to agree with everyone else and go with Eastern Ribbon, T.sauritus, further more, from the colouration of the snake I'd have to guess that it's a Northern Ribbon Snake (T.s.septentrionalis)....this is the only subspecies that is described as having it's dorsal stripe masked with brown pigment, which pretty much matches your description and the pics.
Roy

[drache]

well, Sean from the rescue took a look at my snake and it's definitely a Sauritus sauritus - mystery solved. Now it just needs to go to the vet. Sean told me the scarring is caused by nematodes.
He also told me that our vet is really good at switching garters to rodents. Ooohhh - those cyrtopsis I've been eyeing . . .
I'll have to ask him.

[Snaky]

He also told me that our vet is really good at switching garters to rodents. Ooohhh - those cyrtopsis I've been eyeing . . .
Don't get your hopes up to high that cyrtopsis will switch to rodents... I've had several th.c.c. and they didn't switch over, although my other garter accept it now easily.

[drache]

Okay - I won't get my hopes up too high.
I think I want them either way.
Sean seemed to indicate that the Doc has the magic touch and I can believe that.

[drache]

final update:
Olive Schlange is a male T. sauritus sackenii.
The weird thing is that there is an actual picture in the colour plates (Plate 11, right middle) in Rossman et al, and I'd never thought to look.