What's the difference .... ?

[gregmonsta]

Between radix radix .... and radix haydeni?

It seems the main visual difference I can judge from pictures is a possibly stronger definition between colours and striping in haydeni.

[Stefan-A]

The radix subspecies are no longer recognized.

But, once upon a time: "The eastern plains garter snake, Thamnophis radix radix, was characterized by possessing 19 scale rows on the neck and 154 or fewer ventral scales. The western plains garter snake, Thamnophis radix haydeni, differed by having 21 or more scale rows on the neck and 155 or more ventral scales."

HerpNet.net - Iowa Reptiles and Amphibians - Plains Garter Snake - Thamnophis radix (http://www.herpnet.net/Iowa-Herpetology/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=26)

[adamanteus]

Haydeni was generally paler and had cleaner markings, but as Stefan says, it's no longer recognised.
In my gallery is a T.r.haydeni from back in the days when they existed!

[gregmonsta]

It's a shame because there was a good visual stereotype to go by ... did a scale count anyway (nevermind the integredation that's commonplace in the wild) (ref. - HerpNet.net - Iowa Reptiles and Amphibians - Plains Garter Snake - Thamnophis radix (http://www.herpnet.net/Iowa-Herpetology/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=57&Itemid=26)) ... I definately have radix radix lol .... J was not amused :D

[adamanteus]

Here she is...

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//539/medium/T_radix_haydenii.jpg

Please excuse the poor quality, it's been scanned from a paper photograph... very old-fashioned!:D

[Stefan-A]

Which scales did you count? :)

[gregmonsta]

Neck rofl .... didn't even contemplate the ventrals :rolleyes: . It's a great pic James ... think Gijs and Sabine's old radix was one? ... the big gray girl they had a while back?

[adamanteus]

It's a great pic James ... think Gijs and Sabine's old radix was one? ... the big gray girl they had a while back?

The scale count is unreliable, I guess they decided there is no real difference between the the two, just regional variation, hence the reclassification. I have the grand-daughter of Sabines big grey..... not typical haydenii.

[adamanteus]

Anyway... back to topic... as Stefan rightly says, the sub-species of radix are no longer recognised officially. When you find one of those paler (greener) well marked individuals, that would have been haydenii at one time!

[gregmonsta]

Shhh ... can we still have them unofficially? Just because my old books say so (it would keep trying to get that ultimate garter collection even more fun :D)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

a guy on a forums I used to visit (its gone now) had the most beautiful, stunning, brightly colored radix I had ever layed eyes on. She was very pale, but contrasted by bright brilliant colors, sharp black spots and a stripe that faded from red, to orange, to yellow. Like, my jaw dropped when I saw her. At one point, i bet she was classified as one!

[adamanteus]

I'm with you on that, Greg!
But neither J or the other one are what used to be haydenii... they are both radix radix. Keep looking!

[gregmonsta]

I guess that's where colour morphs would be named :o ... it's just as well every colour morph isn't re-classified as a new subspecies :rolleyes: .... still a shame tho ... they're in my book .... so they're on my list!!! :D