Rack v. Vivarium?

[MasSalvaje]

I apologize if this thread is already out there and I realize this can be a touchy subject for some but which do you prefer and why?

For example: Is it better to use a Vivarium but have to keep multiples in the one cage or use a rack and house each one seperate?

I don't want this to turn into a Good v. Evil battle but I would like to know the pros and cons of both specifically regarding the housing of Thamnophis, I am not interested in reading comments on any other group.

Thanks everyone and keep it clean!

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

We've discussed it a few times over the years, but we've never really done more than just scratch the surface.

Which is better, is in my opinion impossible to say, unless we're talking about very specific aspects of keeping snakes. Naturally, we can't know exactly what goes through the mind of the snake, so it's pretty pointless to speculate about which they like more. There's no real way to measure how satisfied they are with their housing solution, even though longevity and breeding success can be used as indicators. Then again, there's that pesky comparison between quantity and quality, which I feel applies to life as much as it does to anything else. Disregard that, it's my view, which has nothing to do with the animals. But I do think that when nothing points to the contrary, mimicing nature is the best solution.

I'd imagine racks are easier to maintain and you can house more snakes in a rack than in vivs, when they both require the same surface area. However, I like to observe my snakes. How many snakes I can keep or how many different morphs I can collect doesn't mean much to me, so I don't really have a need to house large quantities. I don't like the idea of providing the snakes with just absolute minimum of space and it may be good for their health to have a bit more space to move and especially to have room to climb.Thamnophis species are active foragers, not sit-and-wait predators, so it is natural for them to move around a lot. Some of them are very skittish and when I have housed individuals that are skittish in rack-like enclosures, it has always been difficult to handle them without risking having them eject themselves from the enclosure and injure themselves.

[karlh]

Good debate. I think racks are more cost effective and easier to clean etc, but a viv is much better looking. It all depends if you want to display your animals or have breeding in mind. then again if you was cooling your snakes you would have to cool the whole group. i would love more vivariums but i'm limited to what I can keep as i work away a lot.

[adamanteus]

Vivaria, every time!

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//537/medium/2009_0221vivss0005.jpg

[infernalis]

Same here. I like to watch my snakes, I collect them as well, but to me what is the point in having a hundred pretty animals if I cannot witness that beauty?

(same disclaimer as Stefan, Solely my opinion)

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/lostroom.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/1room.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/2room.jpg

[gregmonsta]

The more space the better ... I wouldn't be happy living in a room when I could live in a house ;) ... + instead of cleaning 8 tubs .... I only have to clean 4 vivs (with my garters on communal time ... I have tubs for babies, quarantine and for a place to keep 'em when I clean .... but even if I had 100 snakes (like some of us do :D) I would still go for vivs every time.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/DSC03589.JPG

[Snake lover 3-25]

viviaria here too.... i think they seem happier when housed together... just brought meadow back from a month of being away and now they all rush out to great her every time i put her in......

i also love to wake up and see all their little faces peeking out from the hides.... in a rack system the only time you'd see them was at feeding time and then what's the point? why have an animal if you can't even tell it's there?

sure the racks are slightly easier to clean and manage the snakes but the snakes won't have many of the little pleasures in life like climbing, or communication........

[MasSalvaje]

Thamnophis species are active foragers, not sit-and-wait predators, so it is natural for them to move around a lot.

Excellent pics everyone!

So it seems that vivarium is the preferred way to go, at least so far. Are there any circumstances that you would use a rack?

To go with Stefan's quote above I have a particular brumating den I like to visit many times a year just a few minutes from my house. For the last few years I have observed the same female and some of her habits. I know it is the same female because of a very unique scar she has. Anyway I have found her in many different spots within a few hundred yard radius eating a variaty of different prey items, throughout different times of the day. I found her one evening just befor dusk, she had eaten a big meal and was still on the move back to the den. Showing that even when full they are more active than a lot of other species. None of this is very scientific I realize just my own personal observation salitifying Stefan's statement.

-Thomas

[Snake lover 3-25]

i wouldn't ever use one.....

[Stefan-A]

Are there any circumstances that you would use a rack?
During brumation. Can't think of any other circumstances, except some very unusual ones.

[gregmonsta]

Only if I really really had to :)

[crzy_kevo]

quarentine was mentioned

[Snake lover 3-25]

i wouldn't ever use one.....


actually i lied.... if i'm ever around/ am informed before they mow the huge lower field by my house i would....
((last summer i collected all the garters i could from the field to save them from an almost certain death..... the last time they cut it i found about 20 dead garters...... most were large females and some were def. gravid...:( ))
but they were wild and i was just holding them till the job was done.... that time it would have been helpful... especially because they were very skitish.....

[adamanteus]

I don't use a rack as such, but I do use plastic storage boxes for brumation purposes. Also for holding snakes during routine cleaning. Apart from that I use all custom built vivaria.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Warning: this is an incredibly long post. Okay here comes my opinion, but also the experience behind why I formed that opinion. This is a topic on which I have never really sat down to express my full views on, because I knew it would take a lot of time and thought. I like to put time and thought into what I say. I am with everyone else. Vivaria for garters, all the way. I tried keeping my garters in the rack system. That was a horrible, really bad, terrible idea in my opinion and I wish I could apologize to them for making them go through it. I was incredibly dissatisfied with it, and it's my opinion that they were too.

I noticed my garters started to go nuts in the rack system. Like, they were pacing back and forth a lot and never really seemed settled. They were all separate of course, and everyone became a little less willing to eat, and for some reason, much more aggressive! I would open a tub and either the snake SHOOTS out of the tub as fast as it can and makes a break for it, then I would have to play catch the snake.... or I would get ready to feed only to find that the snake is in a state of utter panic or lethargy, depending on the snake, and wants nothing to do with food. I would have to leave the food lay in there and put the tub back and wait before most of them would eat.

I had each 08 baby in one of the smaller tubs, including my blacknecks. I thought that my blacknecks were just naturally shy, antisocial little snakes. They were very hard to get to eat, and when they did eat, they were really picky. They were also extremely flippy. I started to worry that my garters were not getting the quality of life that they deserve. They all seemed relatively "unhappy" and I was unhappy with that. finally, I decided to test my thoughts.

I moved my baby hypermel wandering garters into a 10 gallon tank with belly heat. Over the course of the next two weeks... I noticed a slight improvement in all three's behaviors... they seemed "braver", more willing to eat, and much more settled and relaxed. They would not flip out every time I touched the cage. But I still was not totally happy with the results. Something still did not feel right... so I switched to an overhead heat source, a basking spot with visible light. I have not looked back since. I have proven to myself, time and time again, at my garters seem much more satisfied with a large, roomy enclosure, another garter or two, a basking spot, some plants, and a nice big water bowl for swimming. There is something about the basking light that is really magical. I love turning the lights on in the morning, and then I walk in 10 minutes later, and every garter snake I own is smack on top of the best basking areas and very content. That's not something you see with belly heat... even if you turn it on and off, they won't gravitate to it like they do the light.

I decided to try providing those bulbs that give off zero heat, with belly heat in conjunction. I was not surprised to see that they will still pile up under it even if you place that bulb on the cool side. I would say all of my garters improved by a longshot once I moved back to vivs, but the best improvement are that of my blacknecks and my similis. While my similis is still an evil snake... he actually will take food off my tongs. My blacknecks actually bite at me through the glass when they are hungry, they will now eat ANYTHING, and they will "jump" (you know that little thing they do where they launch themselves off the ground at you) and meet me halfway for their meals.

Do I know for sure that my snakes are more satisfied in vivs than in the rack? Nope. Is it my opinion that they are ten times more satisfied in the vivs with room and climby things and other snakes to twitch at? Absolutely. They are all provided with plenty of choices when it comes to hiding places, I even have closed-top hanging birds nests in a lot of the tanks now (stuff those with moss, they LOVE it!), so they can choose to be alone if they want. The funny thing, is that most of my garters rarely hide now, they spend a lot of time out and about, and when I walk into the room, most snakes hide their heads, but my garters come closer. I feel that if I am going to have an active, athletic species of snake, then I should provide large spaces for them and things to stimulate them and keep them active as they should be. I do not want a bunch of lethargic obese garter snakes sitting in boxes that I can't see into, If I wanted that, I would specialize in ball pythons, and while I have a few of those and they are fun and *easy* to maintain, they get pretty boring at points and are not anywhere near as rewarding. Man, they only poop like once every 2 weeks, how boring!

Does this mean that I'm not going to be able to have as many garters as I could with racks? yes. But, if I am going to devote so much of myself, my time, my energy, my obsession, and my passion to these snakes, why hide them from myself? They are not the pokemon cards that i had when I was 12 to collect and stuff in a binder, they are living and breathing and what's the point of having an active species of snake if I'm not interested in viewing them or providing the space they enjoy? All types of snakes have their perks, and garters are one of those snakes that may be high maintenace, but the interaction and observation that I get out of it makes the time, money, energy and space I devote to them well worth it. In fact, there is not a brighter moment in my day than when I open up the side door on my home-built hex cage and the three residents come sliding over and willingly will crawl right out onto my arm, curiously flicking tongues. I can do that every day, 10 times a day, and even if they are stuffed full, they still come over to check me out. I keep meaning to film it because even my own mom thinks its cute. I see my ball pythons about once every 5 days, and that is right before feeding time when they start to become anxious. Then they go and hide, and they are quite content hiding their lives away in dark places. But... garters are not! So my opinion will stand that the rack system downright sucks for keeping garter (and water) snakes. There is no circumstance in which i would change my mind and put them back in it, unless I was brumating them in it.

I wonder if anybody actually made it this far!!!:rolleyes:

[adamanteus]

I agree...... that is an incredibly long post!:D
I also agree totally with the content.

[gregmonsta]

Great post shannon ... :) ... you might want a nightcam for the BPs ... a friend of mine would always catch his out when he went for a midnight snack ... he'd get to his living room, flip the light on and his 'boring' snake would be climbing about apparently on a mission .... I think all snakes need and deserve space ... yes you might give a large python a room and it may not seem to move >>> but does that mean we should keep it in a snake + water bowl sized plastic tray? ... I say nay :D ... in fact in my opinion it's just as bad as battery farming in context.

[Snake lover 3-25]

that won't even fit on my screen!!! i have to scroll down!!! wow!!!!!:eek:

[Snake lover 3-25]

GREAT POST!!!!!!!:D:p

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Great post shannon ... :) ... you might want a nightcam for the BPs ... a friend of mine would always catch his out when he went for a midnight snack ... he'd get to his living room, flip the light on and his 'boring' snake would be climbing about apparently on a mission .... I think all snakes need and deserve space ... yes you might give a large python a room and it may not seem to move >>> but does that mean we should keep it in a snake + water bowl sized plastic tray? ... I say nay :D ... in fact in my opinion it's just as bad as battery farming in context.

well actually, I should have mentioned in my earlier post that i want to sell that rack system and replace it with a viv stack. i just thought I had already said enough :D

I don't really like the rack, except its convenient for rearing babies and isolating individuals.

[GarterNovice]

I would have to say in my very limited experience that I prefer vivariums. I just can't think they would be as happy in a rack system as a really well done viv with lots of room to roam. Granted my two snakes prefer to remain fairly sedentary. Except for feeding time of course when they go wild after each bite. But that's just my humble opinion. And James, I love your viv wall. That's a very impressive and very well done construction!

[Jeff B]

Just wanted to add a little bit of balance here, but first let me say that you guys all have some incredible vivariums, they are some of the nicest I have seen. I used to keep garters in Vivariums, and still think that it is definately the best way to go if you have a few animals, no doubt the best way to sit and watch their behavior and probably more enjoyable for the snake as well. But when you are breeding them and you have lots to take care of, it would not be doing them justice to not keep them in a clean healthy enviroment. You can keep a rack system of tubs very clean more efficiently for larger numbers of snakes. I clean all my tubs and water dishes thoroughly and change the carefresh substrate every week and it takes several hours at that, change water every couple days or more often if needed. I do agree that it isn't the desired space and freedom to view the world for the snakes, which is why I spend an hour or two every night getting several out, handeling them and letting them crawl around on the floor, and I rotate groups, ensuring that they all get out at least every week or so. I envey you guys that have nice vivariums and respect the care and dedication that you give each and every animal, but realize that a rack doesn't nessasarily equate cruelty or a lack of care or concern for the animals, it is simply a more effiecient way to keep largerer numbers of animals. If you have a beautiful vivarium but never clean it (not implying anyone here is in that category) that isn't any more respectful to the animal than a well kept rack system. It's a bit of fashion vs function and balancing things out for you the individual and the animals that you keep, but in the end I think what really matters is; are the animals getting good consistant care, and are you paying attention and knowing and loving your animals.
Peace:)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

sunday is cleaning day for me!! every single sunday, I spend making sure everyone's habitat is clean and sparkling.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Jeff, that sure is a lot of carefresh!!!! its nice and soft.... but that stuff is too expensive for my taste... I use newspaper pellet, at 6.98 for 22 lbs. I can't afford not to!!!!

[Jeff B]

Shannon
It is a lot of carefresh sorta, I only put about an inch down thou, since i am changing regular, I also use newpaper for my other snakes, and shedded paper for males, both free from work. Not that the males are less desirving of carefresh, its just that they don't poop as much as the big girls do :)
Jeff

[Snake lover 3-25]

but care fresh is so colorful!!!! lol i think i'm gonna get my baby some lol i've been keeping her on a combo of paper towel and construction paper to make it pretty lol:p

[infernalis]

I have a great supplier, and I like to mix things up.

Recently I ran out of aspen, a few bags of generic carefresh helped me through that.

The corncob pellets work OK too, but only in dire emergencies for me, the stuff gets moldy quick. (I then re-use it along with used coconut fiber for the roaches)

Repti bark looks good, I like that for may larger animals, the Corn, Pueblan and BP have that.

The garters seem to prefer aspen shavings, easy to burrow in, But they also seem to be getting good use out of the carefresh stuff.

I guess the real answer is whatever is on sale.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I guess the real answer is whatever is on sale.


that my friend, is exactly my philosophy. So long as it's a safe substrate, it's good enough for me!!!:D

[infernalis]

I have to get back over to the local petco, they had 3 bags of hardwood shavings in the discount bin for $5 each.

[Seere121]

I guess the real answer is whatever is on sale.


Exactly! A few weeks ago I went to the home depot to see if they had any non-cedar mulch that would work. It would have been awesome at the $5 or so they wanted for 50lb sacks, but all of the varieties they had, had at least some cedar in it.

[And_Lyn]

Naturally, we can't know exactly what goes through the mind of the snake, so it's pretty pointless to speculate about which they like more.


stefan, my opinion may be wrong... but ill state mine anyway... captive vs wild is different but this species has evolved to live in a certain habitat correct? close to water etc... obviously they prefer amphibians like tadpoles or frogs, minnows, fish etc... i had a great conversation with wayne today on his success of nonfeeders starting with tadpoles and then working into a normal diet, which was great to hear.

instead of going off topic... my opinion is give them what they have evolved to live in.. for individuals...if you have many, then choose the most cost effective...both are completely understandable... but personally i prefer natural environment... that is until im up in the wayne and guido ranks of 100+ ... until then ill go natural:D

[Stefan-A]

stefan, my opinion may be wrong... but ill state mine anyway... captive vs wild is different but this species has evolved to live in a certain habitat correct? close to water etc... obviously they prefer amphibians like tadpoles or frogs, minnows, fish etc... i had a great conversation with wayne today on his success of nonfeeders starting with tadpoles and then working into a normal diet, which was great to hear.

instead of going off topic... my opinion is give them what they have evolved to live in.. for individuals...if you have many, then choose the most cost effective...both are completely understandable... but personally i prefer natural environment... that is until im up in the wayne and guido ranks of 100+ ... until then ill go natural:D
I do agree with you. If you don't mind I'd like to reply with a quote:


I do think that when nothing points to the contrary, mimicing nature is the best solution.

This is where I start rambling:

There are a couple of things that should be taken into account here, too. One is the idea that an organism is capable of identifying a suitable environment based simply on the general characteristics of it, without necessarily knowing whether for example food is abundant there. We know it to be true about humans, people all across the world are predisposed (apparently it's been studied and verified) to like the same types of landscapes, because they suggest that food and fresh water will be abundant there. Whether this theory applies to snakes and if it does, what are the implications and how do they identify a favourable environment, is open to debate. For all we know, our fake-nature-vivs are about as convincing to them as a plastic box in a rack.

The second thing is that organisms work with what they can. Generalists like garter snakes have trouble competing with dedicated fish eaters or mouse catchers, but they've been able to carve out a niche by being flexible and able to switch between several types of prey in radically different environments.That suggests that they would be less specific about their environment. Water is a central thing, sure, but it could also be (not saying it should be) dismissed simply because of the fact that water attracts all types of species.

This is not me defending either racks or vivs, it's just me thinking out loud.

[drache]

never had racks, so I can't speak from experience
but I do feel that more space is better
somebody I'd met thought it crazy that I give my five foot king a 6'x2' enclosure, but he does use that full length sometimes and I wish I could give him more, and he's not even a garter
I always wish I could give them more
and I love seeing them

[infernalis]

Nice Rhea. we just decided to actually build a "corner closet" with a glass front for Limon.

Give him 8 feet tall by 4-5 feet sided to side.

[guidofatherof5]

Just an idea. Couldn't you take a cheap(Salvation Army, thrift store) tall entertainment/audio center and put a hinged screen door on it, for those climbers. It could have a top and bottom door. It could have multiple levels/shelves for plenty of exploring. Maybe laid on its side to give you a couple of long enclosures. It could work.

[MasSalvaje]

This is not me defending either racks or vivs, it's just me thinking out loud.

You know Stefan you make a lot of sense when you think out loud (that is not to say you don't at other times also), very nice insight, thank you.

-Thomas

[MasSalvaje]

never had racks, so I can't speak from experience
but I do feel that more space is better
somebody I'd met thought it crazy that I give my five foot king a 6'x2' enclosure, but he does use that full length sometimes and I wish I could give him more, and he's not even a garter
I always wish I could give them more
and I love seeing them

You are better than I drache! My four other snakes apart from my Gopher and Garters are in racks. In my defense though, I keep them in the larger racks designed for large boids (I only have colubrids). I looked at the 28 and 32qt tubs and decided they were not nearly large enough for my snakes.

-Thomas

[drache]

You are better than I drache!
don't say such a thing - it's a really bad idea
I might start believing it