Scale count

[adamanteus]

Hi, Someone asked me how to do a scale count. So I quickly did the attached sketch (hopefully I've uploaded it properly). You simply count from the dorsal mid-line to the ventral, then double it and minus 1 (the mid dorsal only gets counted once). So the snake in my drawing wound have a scale count of 19. Hope this helps.

James.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Really helpful, thankyou..

[mikm]

hey James ... yes, thank you very much for posting this sketch ... most helpful :)

marian

[Cazador]

Great sketch, James.

[adamanteus]

Glad you like it Rick. It's a bit rough but I think it will give people the right idea, if they've never atempted a scale count before.

James,

[Gyre]

I've got a simple question: What is a sale count for? Gender.. Age..? =P

Hannah

[adamanteus]

It can help to identify species where colouration, form etc isn't enough. T.sirtalis has a scale count of 19, as in the drawing, whereas T.ordinoides, for example, has a count of 17.

James.

[Gyre]

Thanks, and also the drawingis very helpful. You learn something new every day. :)

Hannah

[KITKAT]

Could we combine the drawing in this message with the photo posted elsewhere by Stephan-A, and put it in an Article for easy reference every time this question comes up?


Hi, Someone asked me how to do a scale count. So I quickly did the attached sketch (hopefully I've uploaded it properly). You simply count from the dorsal mid-line to the ventral, then double it and minus 1 (the mid dorsal only gets counted once). So the snake in my drawing wound have a scale count of 19. Hope this helps.

James.

[KITKAT]

OK... I am trying to count the scales on the bigger of my two T.ordinoidespickeringii :rolleyes:

In the photo and the drawing of scale counting, there are the ventral plates, and then there are the keeled scales of the dorsal side of the snake...

And you don't count the ventral plates.

However, on my snake there is a row of scales between the ventral plates and the keeled scales of the dorsal side. The scales in this row are something like hexagonal in shape, although they are somewhat irregular. They are also much larger than the other scales on the back.

Do I count them, or not?

I have tried to change the drawing to reflect what I am asking about:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/weird_row.jpg

And here is the photo of my snake:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/possible_female_scale_count_1.jpg

Note that in this count, I have included the hexagonal scales that are larger (2x - 3x) than the rest of the scales in the count. (Row 1, in photo above)

[KITKAT]

Anyone want to guess the sex?

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/possible_female_3.jpg

[KITKAT]

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/ordinoides_head_1.jpg

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/possible_male_1.jpg

[Cazador]

Wow! Yours are different than mine. Mine have 17 scale rows. Your vertebral stripe looks much thinner than mine, too... barely a full scale width. I bet we're dealing with two different species, if not hybrids. How far from the head or vent did you do this scale count, Kitkat?
Rick

[adamanteus]

OK... I am trying to count the scales on the bigger of my two T.ordinoidespickeringii :rolleyes:

In the photo and the drawing of scale counting, there are the ventral plates, and then there are the keeled scales of the dorsal side of the snake...

And you don't count the ventral plates.

However, on my snake there is a row of scales between the ventral plates and the keeled scales of the dorsal side. The scales in this row are something like hexagonal in shape, although they are somewhat irregular. They are also much larger than the other scales on the back.

Do I count them, or not?

I have tried to change the drawing to reflect what I am asking about:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/weird_row.jpg

And here is the photo of my snake:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/possible_female_scale_count_1.jpg

Note that in this count, I have included the hexagonal scales that are larger (2x - 3x) than the rest of the scales in the count. (Row 1, in photo above)

Yes, count all scale rows excluing the ventral plates. It's important to take the count at mid-body, or slightly forward of that, as dorsal scale rows frequently diminish toward the cloaca.

James.

[KITKAT]

Wow! Yours are different than mine. Mine have 17 scale rows. Your vertebral stripe looks much thinner than mine, too... barely a full scale width. I bet we're dealing with two different species, if not hybrids. How far from the head or vent did you do this scale count, Kitkat?
Rick

I took my count about mid-body. But here's the thing... my biggest snake has 19 rows if I count those weird hexagonal scales... but I think my smaller one has 17. The photos did not turn out, so I will try taking them again and post them when I do.

The dorsal stripe on both snakes is one scale wide.

The head of the snake with 19 rows is longer and more pointed... the head of the snake that I think has 17 is more rounded.

Can you give me a guess on sex from the one photo where I asked that? I suspect I have one ordinoides and one intergrade, but I'm not sure yet.

[GarterGuy]

Yeh, KitKat, you do count the larger scales right after the caudal scales...so they'd be scale #1. Oh and very good drawing of scale counts James.
Roy

[GarterGuy]

Hmmmm, ok, guess I replied a bit late....LOL. Well I will take a stab at the sex Q....it looks like a female, the tail is really constricted right after the cloaca......doesn't look like there's any room for hemipenes there.
Roy

[adamanteus]

It's difficult to tell the sex from a partial body photo. A picture of the whole snake might be useful....Or ask it to park the car....if it bumps into something it's probably a female!

[Cazador]

Ohhh James, that's bad!

Kitkat, Very interesting and cool about the scale count. Also, your snake looks like it was probably only minutes away from taking a poop in that picture! The area right in front of the vent looks artificially swollen. My first guess would be female, but I'm afraid the eminent "dump" is distorting the body shape. Would you mind posting another picture from the same point-of-view? Course, that would involve taking another snake picture, which I know is something none of us like very much ;).

Rick

[KITKAT]

It's difficult to tell the sex from a partial body photo. A picture of the whole snake might be useful....Or ask it to park the car....if it bumps into something it's probably a female!

Oh... you thought I would let that one pass, didn't you??? :p:eek:

I can park in spaces that would make you think your knickers were buckled too tight... and I do it in a 40 foot long vehicle!

Some time I'll post pics of an alley I used to traverse every day...:D ... then we'll see how many of the GUYS think they could do it!:rolleyes:

*********

Cazador... I am working on getting instructions for the camera I am using, to see if there is a macro setting. If so, we'll have another photo shoot, and I hope to do a scale count on the "male", and sexing photos on both (again).

[Odie]

If I counted right mine/are's has 16 rows.

[adamanteus]

If I counted right mine/are's has 16 rows.

It would seem you've miscounted there I'm afraid...a correct scale count would come out an odd number (ie 17, 19, 21 and so forth) not an even number. The mid-dorsal scale is only counted once.