Tourette's syndrome

[guidofatherof5]

I have a little(10 months old) Radix who for the last 6 months has shown a strange head tic. Working with kids the way I have for the last 23 years I have had kids come through my classes with Tourette's Syndrome. Watching this little snake it only reminds me of this disorder. The only way to describe it is when you see someone and you give them a headbob as a way of saying hello. This snake will give anywhere from 5 to 10 of these in a row. Everytime his head rises higher and higher. It appears to only happen when he is not actively doing something else like eating or moving across the enclosure. Sitting still and staring at something is the only time I have observed this behavior. He does everything else like a normal snake except for this tic. Has anyone else ever seen this type of behavior?

[Sid]

This is a new one on me, Steve. I'll have to follow this threat to see what news you get from others. Hope it isn't any thing alarming.

[Snake lover 3-25]

OMG!!!!!!! my turtle does the exact same thing!!!! i worry about him too and he seems to have a slight dent in the top of his head.....:( but wow his behavior is to the letter!!!!!

[guidofatherof5]

I think because of the large number of babies I have, I'm seeing some interesting issues. This snake is growing and seems otherwise normal. None of his brothers or sisters seem affected by this. He was born here and has grown up with only his family. I would consider him one of the larger snakes of his group. He is a very aggressive eater and enjoys any interaction.

[snakems]

I think because of the large number of babies I have, I'm seeing some interesting issues. This snake is growing and seems otherwise normal. None of his brothers or sisters seem affected by this. He was born here and has grown up with only his family. I would consider him one of the larger snakes of his group. He is a very aggressive eater and enjoys any interaction.

YES! SNAKEMS does this!!! but she only does it if you stroke her in a certain area. I mean its not like its with any pressure at all so I dont know why but she will twitch and do the head thing!! just like you explained.

[snakems]

I think because of the large number of babies I have, I'm seeing some interesting issues. This snake is growing and seems otherwise normal. None of his brothers or sisters seem affected by this. He was born here and has grown up with only his family. I would consider him one of the larger snakes of his group. He is a very aggressive eater and enjoys any interaction.
snakems is also a very aggressive eater and really seems to love nothing more than being held. If i put my hand in her cage and she's out to see that I do she immediately slithers over to my hand and curls up my arm to get out.

[infernalis]

One of my red sided babies has a really strange behavior, quite similar, yet he rolls and flips periodically also.

[Snake lover 3-25]

yeah.... my turtle is growing and doing everything else fine as well..... i think it's most likely something to do with his brain...... i don't think he's quite right in the head....:(

[snakems]

One of my red sided babies has a really strange behavior, quite similar, yet he rolls and flips periodically also.

whoa!
thats quite the behavior. I'd probably freak out if I saw my snake do that. lol
one time snakems did something much like a sneeze! and it was AMAZING! lol
I know they dont have a diaphragm so they cant technically sneeze but it sounded SO much like a sneeze (or at least like the little baby sneezes that cats make haha) I was AMAZED and felt like NO ONE would believe me even if I told them but SO LUCKY to actually get to see that lol
she must have had water in her nose somehow or something and had to expell it but it seriously made my like YEAR. hahaaah

[guidofatherof5]

Thought I would put a face to the thread. This little guy is wonderful. Loves to get out and just set with us. He's usually the first one to greet me from this group. He's one that will be staying with us.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tourett.jpg

[And_Lyn]

could it possibly be a b1 deficiency? i read that somewhere online, head swaying, bobbing ... possibly convulsions and then... bad stuff, ill find the link and post so you can compare?

[And_Lyn]

heres the paragraph and link, friend

Alan's Garter Snakes - Maintenance of Garter Snakes (http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/maintenance.htm#Feeding)

"Keepers should be aware that there is evidence that some garter snakes are predisposed to thiamine (vitamin B1) deficiency. This is thought to occur if they are fed an exclusive diet of oily fish, which are rich in an enzyme called thiaminase. This enzyme will destroy thiamine, so even if vitamin supplement is added to the diet or drinking water, it will still be destroyed. The manifestations of this deficiency are of loss of co-ordination, head waving, balance disturbance, anorexia, weakness, and finally convulsions and death. I have known animals showing the early stages of symptoms to make a full recovery with a change of diet."

-Andrew

[guidofatherof5]

Good connect, but not with this one. They all get supps. and no minnows.
Doesn't mean this one may not have a genetic problem with absorbing B1, but I doubt it. All the other siblings are fine.

Good connection to bring up. Very nice.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

well, the twicthing that most people are thinking of in this thread is indicative of garter snake communication, when touched by another snake, they will often twitch in response, and I have actually learned how to twitch my fingers while touching a snake in order to get a response back! But as for this one... man that is odd... sounds neurological. I had two baby checkereds that did something similar but they often flipped upside down and in fact the one spent most of it's short 6 month life completely upside down!

[guidofatherof5]

It doesn't seem to be progressive, at this point. Normal Radix in every way. Just got a tic.
Always greets me and seem to enjoy being held. He, of course will stay with use for the rest of his life.
I hope it's a good long one. I enjoy seeing his face.

[Lori P]

OK, since no-one else has asked, I'll have to. Does he shout random obscenities at you too? :D

[And_Lyn]

OK, since no-one else has asked, I'll have too. Does he shout random obscenities at you too? :D

LOL!!! I was wondering the same thing

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol :p

[guidofatherof5]

OK, since no-one else has asked, I'll have to. Does he shout random obscenities at you too? :D


LOL!!! I was wondering the same thing

My snake, obscenities. Never. The meds do a great job.:D:D

[guidofatherof5]

Little Tourette ate his first and second pinky tonight. No scenting.

I offered, he took. Gone in a flash. I'm happy.

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol congrats:D

[infernalis]

One of my orange easterns has a twitch, I only recently noticed it, It looks like a nervous disorder, he oscillates his head back and forth rapidly from time to time.

He eats, acts and even breeds otherwise normally.???

Just hope he does not start blurting out obscenities anytime soon:rolleyes:

[And_Lyn]

oh how i wish to know what obcenities a snake would blurt out if in fact it did have tourettes... with that said...my imagination wanders...:eek:

-Andrew

[infernalis]

Brings to mind Duce Bigalow:D

[Stefan-A]

oh how i wish to know what obcenities a snake would blurt out if in fact it did have tourettes... with that said...my imagination wanders...:eek:
Coprolalia is relatively rare in people who suffer from Tourette's syndrome.

[infernalis]

I have been known to display symptoms of Coprolalia under the right circumstances:D

[drache]

I have been known to display symptoms of Coprolalia under the right circumstances:D
I think under the right circumstances it's not considered pathological and hence does not get a scientific name - it's called righteous anger, or being pissed

[And_Lyn]

Coprolalia is relatively rare in people who suffer from Tourette's syndrome.


Wikipedia works wonders ;)

[Stefan-A]

Wikipedia works wonders ;)
Wikipedia has nothing to do with it.

[And_Lyn]

Wikipedia has nothing to do with it.

I was joking. Lighten up a tad ;)

[And_Lyn]

I have been known to display symptoms of Coprolalia under the right circumstances:D

im stealing this from you, best line ive heard in a while haha

-andrew

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have been known to display symptoms of Coprolalia under the right circumstances:D
Oh crap thats funny!!!! :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

*Update*

This afternoon I reached in to see Tourett. She appeared confused. Her head tic had been gone for the last couple of weeks and I had hope it was gone for good. Now, the tic was back and it doesn't look good. She refused to eat. The tic is constant, now. She acts as if she is blind. Major neurological issues, in my opinion. I wondering if it could be some kind of brain tumor or brain virus. I have isolated her from the rest. She is the only one in the group that shows anything like this. They all receive the same food and supps. Will schedule a Vet. visit for tomorrow. I am worried.

[drache]

poor girl
that does not sound good

[guidofatherof5]

Just got back from picking up my kids and checked on her. She seems fine. Not eating, though. I think she is having seizures. Epilepsy? My Vet. is out of town for 3 days. Will have to watch her. Seizures would explain the off and on tics. Really confused at this time.

[guidofatherof5]

Doing some research, I've learned that to be accurate, my snake is suffering from "tremors" Here's a link to what I found. Changing what it's called, hasn't helped me. Still looking for answers.
Seizures, Convulsions And Tremors In Reptiles - FaunaClassifieds (http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64487)

[anji1971]

That link is the one I found when Deejay had a funny twitching spell. I never did find out exactly what caused it, but I took her off of salmon from China, and switched to Rainbow trout, and haven't seen any symptoms since. I figure, for her, it was some kind of toxin. Yours seems like something more related to neurological or developmental issues. We may never know.........
Best of luck for the poor snakey.

[gregmonsta]

Poor little thing. Fingers crossed.

[guidofatherof5]

That link is the one I found when Deejay had a funny twitching spell. I never did find out exactly what caused it, but I took her off of salmon from China, and switched to Rainbow trout, and haven't seen any symptoms since. I figure, for her, it was some kind of toxin. Yours seems like something more related to neurological or developmental issues. We may never know.........
Best of luck for the poor snakey.

I buy no fish-Products of China-

[Sid]

Steve, I hope find what's causing the problem and she does OK. Beautiful Radix.

[Snake lover 3-25]

poor thing.... hope you can find out what's wrong...:(

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for all your concern. This thing comes and goes. She'll be fine for a few days then tic of a hour or so. Changing her diet and supps. Still planning on a Vet visit this week. Lots happening here. Busy time. Now, some new baby radixes. YES!

[guidofatherof5]

Just got back from the Vet. Little Tourette has Epilepsy, suffers from petit mal seizures. Vet. wants episodes documented (frequency and duration) for a month or two. At this point he doesn't want to medicate. She may need to go on phenobarb, later. He's not sure medication is the way to go at this point. He also wants to see if the seizures are getting worse. His concerns are that she may need to be euthanized if her condition worsens. Not something I want to think about. She's been with us since birth and has worked her way into my heart. I did question him about a possible B1 deficiency. He wasn't concerned about that as a possible cause of her problem.
I did ask him about a facial abnormality I see in her. Compared to her siblings, her snout is shorter and more blunt. I compared this feature to the facial abnormalities in children with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. I'm thinking her disability is a developmental one. He said he also noticed this in her but had never thought about it in that way but that it could be a good explanation to her condition.
Time will tell what the future holds for Tourette. I'm just thankful that she's with us. She will have to live a celibate life, no reason to pass this problem on to the next generation.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tourette1.jpg

[drache]

epilepsy, huh? no fun at all - poor baby

[Snake lover 3-25]

ooo that's sad.... but look at the bright side! if she stay's where she's at now there is a treatment! good luck!:)

[gregmonsta]

She's in the best hands tho ;) you're seeing her right :D

[guidofatherof5]

It's been almost 4 months since I last posted about this snake. First, this snake is not alone. One of her brother has the same problem.
Tourette as I call her still suffers from this illness(?) The good news is the frequency of these incidents are far and few in between. Hopefully this was a developmental problem and will not deter from a somewhat normal life.
Her brother is having the same amount of seizures(head noding). I hope he grows out of it also.
For both these snakes I've increased the amount of times they get a suppliment. Not sure if that helped but I hope so.

[guidofatherof5]

7 months have passed since my last post about these snakes. Both are doing well. I haven't seen any on the head nodding from either snake. They both appear to be operating normally.
Here are a couple of photos of Tourette. She's a joy to have around and is a great eater. It makes me laugh to think back to her baby days when she had uncontrollable head nodding. Things sure have improved for her as she's matured.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tourette11.jpg
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tourette.jpg

[gregmonsta]

She's lovely :D good to see her doing well.

[ConcinusMan]

I have seen similar tremors, twisting, etc. in a few misfortunate concinnus offspring. None of them made it. Some were fine at birth, but a little underdeveloped, then later developed the neurological issues.

I guess it's just like any other animal including humans. There are birth defects. It could be a mutated or damaged gene responsible for instructing the body how to make proteins. If one or more proteins consistently folds incorrectly, the symptoms will develop and get worse over time. (this is what causes Parkinsons and similar disorders) It doesn't look good for this snake.

If it were me, I wouldn't waste money on a vet, and I would probably euthanize the poor thing. Finding a cause is unlikely even with a vet's expertise but if I know you, you won't do that.

[guidofatherof5]

I have seen similar tremors, twisting, etc. in a few misfortunate concinnus offspring. None of them made it. Some were fine at birth, but a little underdeveloped, then later developed the neurological issues.

I guess it's just like any other animal including humans. There are birth defects. It could be a mutated or damaged gene responsible for instructing the body how to make proteins. If one or more proteins consistently folds incorrectly, the symptoms will develop and get worse over time. (this is what causes Parkinsons and similar disorders) It doesn't look good for this snake.

If it were me, I wouldn't waste money on a vet, and I would probably euthanize the poor thing. Finding a cause is unlikely even with a vet's expertise but if I know you, you won't do that.

You are right, I won't euthanize under these circumstances. I will when I feel it's called for. In this case patients has paid off for her. Even if this were a developmental thing and she has matured through it, I still won't let her breed. I will make room for her to spend the rest of her life on the Ranch. I know you didn't mean anything bad by using the phrase "Waste Money". I don't look at these issues that some of these snakes have as a waste of money. I to get to learn from many of these situations.To be able to spend time with Tourette now has been worth the small investment I have made in her. Snakes like her, Krinkleback, Tang and others give me a wealth of knowledge and experience for a small investment.

[brubru2]

I know I am not as much of an expert on garters as you are, but to me that sounds exactly like the symptoms of Tourette's syndrome. I am just not sure if it can occur in garters.

[ConcinusMan]

You are right, I won't euthanize under these circumstances. I will when I feel it's called for. In this case patients has paid off for her. Even if this were a developmental thing and she has matured through it, I still won't let her breed. I will make room for her to spend the rest of her life on the Ranch. I know you didn't mean anything bad by using the phrase "Waste Money". I don't look at these issues that some of these snakes have as a waste of money. I to get to learn from many of these situations.To be able to spend time with Tourette now has been worth the small investment I have made in her. Snakes like her, Krinkleback, Tang and others give me a wealth of knowledge and experience for a small investment.

:D:D:D Well stated.

[De Foezel]

isnt he/she estamating the distance
i know snakes geus distance by bobbing thier head sideways
mayb this snake is adept for doing that up and down in stead of left to right?

[guidofatherof5]

isn't he/she estamating the distance
i know snakes geus distance by bobbing thier head sideways
mayb this snake is adept for doing that up and down in stead of left to right?

When this was occurring, it was uncontrollable. If it occurred while she was going for food she would be unable to get to the food. I could clearly see she was struggling. It debilitated her. Great idea, though.

[guidofatherof5]

Here's an update on my adult Tourette.
http://www.youtube.com/user/thamnophis14?feature=mhw4

[guidofatherof5]

Lately, I've been concerned about my girl Tourette. Her head bobbing is getting a little worse. Not much but still I see and increase. She was also off food for awhile and lost some weight. She back to eating and I feel a little better.
If you look at this photo closely you will see she has a facial deformity in her jaw. Her lower jaw appears shorter than the top. I think it all ties in with her head bobbing. We love her here at the Ranch and hope she has a good long life.
She's getting to be a big radix.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tourette2.jpg

[guidofatherof5]

4 months ago I posted concerns about this wonderful girl.
My concerns are over. She's back to a good weight and has this awesome attitude.
She's one of the first to come and see me when I open things up.
She is so trusting. Handling her is effortless. She doesn't mind being held. She comes out and climbs to my shoulders for some relax time.
I do have to watch her when mice are on the menu as she goes crazy for them. She's a hard hitting radix.
I remember when she was born. Her disability was so severe she had trouble eating. I never imagined she'd make it this far. She'll be 3 years old in Sept. of this year.
Long live Tourette.

[kibakiba]

You've done great, Steve. Without you're help there would be so many suffering snakes, but you give them all a chance at having such a wonderful life. Tourette is beautiful.

[EasternGirl]

Chantel said it best...she is a beautiful snake and lucky to have you.

[gregmonsta]

I'm happy she's doing so well :)

[guidofatherof5]

Born April of 08. I remember my Tourette as she is called as a newborn. That strange head bobbing tick. It caused her to have trouble eating. As she grew so did my concerns for her and her future. She required a lot of patience during feeding. She's always had a sweet contentment and has been a pleasure to raise.

Fast forward to today.
She's now 3 years and 4 months old and one of my girls. She weighs in at 210 grams and is solid as a rock. I haven't seen any major occurrences of the head tick in quite awhile. She has a habit of going off food for a month or so but certainly doesn't show any ill effects from that behavior.
As you can see she's a beautiful green head, lite phase with a tint of orange on her sides.
Shortly after she was born I didn't know what the future would hold for her but it has been a very good time watching her grow and mature.
I have very few concerns about her condition now and only hope she lives a long life here at the Ranch.
She's one nice radix.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/tourette3.jpg

[kibakiba]

I'm happy that Tourette has lived such a happy life with you! She does seem pretty solid. She's a pretty girl :D

[RedSidedSPR]

She is. Love the green head.

[d_virginiana]

She's beautiful. Glad the head tick didn't end up being something that kept her from thriving!

[guidofatherof5]

She's beautiful. Glad the head tick didn't end up being something that kept her from thriving!


She's had her share of ups and downs but is thriving very well now.
I would love to breed her but don't want to pass anything on to the next generations.
So, I guess it's the single life for her.:(

[RedSidedSPR]

You think it would pass that on?

[guidofatherof5]

Not willing to take the chance.
Better decision for all involved to not breed.;)

[kimbosaur]

Love this story :)

[guidofatherof5]

You should meet Tourette. She's a sight to behold and to be held.
She's a sweet snake.;)
Ellen(Selkielass) met her last week.

[PINJOHN]

great news Steve :) there's nothing beats a happy ending :)

[guidofatherof5]

But this isn't the end my friend(I do know what you mean)
Tourette will hopefully live a long and healthy life here.
She brings great joy to me each day I see her.
In her enclosure she is one of many special snakes. All with names and individual personalities.
All quite unique in themselves.
Tourette has worked her way into my heart and will be a valued member of our family for many years to come.
Her story is still being written.