The Best Substrate

[Gyre]

Hey, just wondering what types of substrate people are using. I've seen some pictures of enclosures, and I'm wondering, (though there's bound to be debate over this) what is the most practical, afordable and healthiest substrate?

Thanks a lot,
Hannah

[hjelte]

Zoo Med Laboratories, Inc. - Cage Substrates (http://zoomed.com/html/cage_substrates_home.php)
This is what I use. I find it is very good in keeping odor to a minimum as well giving a nice contrast in an aestetic sense (did I spell that one right?) when viewing the snakes. Here in sweden it´s sold at an affordable price as well.

Chris

[Gyre]

Thank you, Chris. I'll have to take a look at the petstore. :)

[GarterGuy]

Yep you were right....here goes the debate!:D I acutally don't like the shredded aspen bedding.....I lost a western hognose (Heterodon nasicus nasicus) to an impaction from some accidentally ingested aspen. Personally I use the product called CareFresh....it's a recylced wood pulp product that is safe if ingested, cleans up really nice and allows the snakes to burrow. It's not as nice looking as a lot of the wood products (it's just kind of grey), but I actually use it on ALL my snakes...garters, kings, ect. I know Scott Felzer also uses it for his garters. I've heard some people say it's too dry, but I've NEVER had any shedding issues with my snakes and they all have complete sheds.
Roy

[Gyre]

Aha, I knew it. :D

I've seen some pictures of people with astro turf down. (This is something I have access to for free.) Anyone have any expierence with it?

Hannah

[Stefan-A]

Ordinary unfertilized garden peat. Safe to ingest and lets them burrow, pretty ok looking, tolerates a lot of moisture and is fairly mold resistant. And it's cheap, 3.40€ for a 65l bag. Any commercial substrate available costs 10 times as much. The drawback is that it's almost like sawdust when it dries out completely and is pretty much guaranteed to be ingested in small quantities, especially with fish and worms.

And I am looking for a better alternative, I was never completely happy with it. That it passes right through the snake is hard to outweigh, though. Never had any respiratory problems with it either.

[GarterGuy]

I used to have my first garter ( a VERY long time ago) on astroturf. Things to look out for is make sure that it's not treated with anything, like a fungicide, to keep mildew off of it and also make sure that any loose threads are trimmed off so they can't be accidentally ingested. I had my Manitoba Redsided (T.s.parietalis) on it for her whole 9.5yrs. and she did fine. It is kind of a pain to clean, and it's best to have spares to put in the tank while you're cleaning the other one. Also didn't like that she wasn't able to burrow in it, all my garters love burrowing through their substrate.
Roy

[Cazador]

Yep. I've had the same experience as Roy with the astroturf. There is a choice that pretty much has to be made when it comes to bedding. If you're going for the best hygene, paper towels and/or newspaper can't be beat, but they're kindof ugly compared to a natural substrate. Unfortunately, natural substrates are harder to thoroughly clean, but they make it very easy to remove the clumped feces that you can see. Uric acid crystals often filter down through them, though. The natural substrates are also great growth media for bacteria, fungi, and parasite eggs. The astroturf also allows waste products to sift down through it. You just have to be aware of their strengths and weaknesses and clean accordingly.

[abcat1993]

I used the Aspen Bedding hjelte recommended but didn't like how it looked so I switched over to some dark brown wood chips.

[CrazyHedgehog]

Hey, I started the info sheet on substrates,

http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet#Substrates

but didn't add astro turf or peat....any chance of adding your experiences to the info for all to see....?

[adamanteus]

I've always used natural slate as a substrate, not chippings but large pieces cemented into place and neatly pointed in. Very attractive, easy to wipe clean, impermiable to water, faeces etc. helps to retain heat and keeps heating bills down (heat cable or mat is fixed underneath, so if it blows, you need to buiild a new floor!).

[CrazyHedgehog]

A pic of that would be nice adamanteus!
Do you not find that it adds too much humidity? (with having nothing to absorb escess moisture?)

[Cazador]

I added some text for astroturf on the care sheets, but feel free to modify it as appropriate.

[adamanteus]

A pic of that would be nice adamanteus!
Do you not find that it adds too much humidity? (with having nothing to absorb escess moisture?)

On the contrary, it keeps humidity low, as it's non absorbant, water simply evaporates off the surface, especially with under-floor heating. Works for me.
James.

[Stefan-A]

Switched the female's substrate from peat to paper towels yesterday. She didn't take it all too well, she has spent the last 24 hours up on a branch and refuses to come down. :D

[Snaky]

Well, now that Stefan-A switched to newspaper, I'm checking out peat. Let's see how good it is to absorbs odors and how easy it will be to clean it...:)

[GGarter]

Have any of you ever used the BSS (Bioactive Substrat System)?

I think it was developed by Philippe de Vosjoli.

I read about it in the book "The Art of Keeping Snakes- from the experts at advanced vivarium systems".

It sounded like a really interesting theory of creating a population of nonharmful microorgsnisms that would outcompete any harmful organism colonies, before they "settle".

[adamanteus]

I haven't read it....but wouldn't cleaning destroy the non harmful organisms as readily as the harmful ones?

[GarterGuy]

Have any of you ever used the BSS (Bioactive Substrat System)?

I think it was developed by Philippe de Vosjoli.

I read about it in the book "The Art of Keeping Snakes- from the experts at advanced vivarium systems".

It sounded like a really interesting theory of creating a population of nonharmful microorgsnisms that would outcompete any harmful organism colonies, before they "settle".


I have used this before, and it does really nice, but with something as large as a garter (I know garters aren't really considered large, but when you're talking about naturalistic vivaria they can be kind of "big") you need a fairly large enclosure to ensure that the soil doesn't get "spoiled" too quickly. I've personally used it for anoles, toads and tree frogs with good success and I imagine for smaller types of garters it might work.

[GGarter]

I haven't read it....but wouldn't cleaning destroy the non harmful organisms as readily as the harmful ones?

I definatly think it would, but the point about the BSS is that you only remove the feces an then stir the rest of the remains into the substrat, where it will be processed and eventually degraded, by the microorganisms.

[GGarter]

(I know garters aren't really considered large, but when you're talking about naturalistic vivaria they can be kind of "big") you need a fairly large enclosure to ensure that the soil doesn't get "spoiled" too quickly.

How big a vivarium would you expect was needed to make the BSS work with garters?

I'm planning on acquiring a 4X2X2 foot setup for two or three garters

[adamanteus]

I understand now. I'm not sure that I would be comfortable with a non-cleaning regime......But then I'm something of an obsessive compulsive when it comes to vivarium hygiene. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has used BSS for Garters (or other snakes) though.

[GarterGuy]

I would think that the 4X2X2 vivaria would work for a pair of small garters. You would have to make completely sure though that they were parasite free......this type of environment lends its self to be a parasite breeding ground. I am with James though.....I'm WAY too paranoid about the health of my snakes to go with something like that. Not saying it can't work though and like he had said, I'd like to hear from someone who's used it and had success. Hmmmmm....maybe I need to go out and get "The Art of Keeping Snakes...":cool:
Roy

[Gyre]

Well, I just re-furnished my girl's tank today with a half inch of topsoil and a glass dish for her to swim in.. (I caught her curled up very small, trying to soke in the 3x3 dish I had in there before. Extremely silly looking. :p )

But, anyway, does anyone heat their water? .. I know is seems like a strange question, but she took a swim, then slithered up as close to her light as possible.

Thanks,
Hannah

[Cazador]

Hi Hannah,

Just after you've refinished your enclosure is a rotten time to learn that the substrate you've chosen is potentially dangerous, but moisture + soil + heat + dark pockets can create prime conditions for bacterial and fungal growth. It seems natural that soil would be a good choice since wild snakes live their entire lives on it, but captivity and confinement present a whole different set of issues that have to be dealt with. The problem with soil is that it's very good at retaining moisture and has enough nutrients (particularily if organic matter is mixed in) to allow fungal and bacterial growth. It can also be difficult to clean thoroughly, particularily when excrements soak in deep. In captivity, the snake is confined to a comparatively small area. They're unable to get fresh air if nitrogenous wastes or bacterial/fungal spores accumulate, and are continually re-exposed to bacteria and fungi that grow in contaminated substrate. In captivity, waste products that penetrate down into the soil can't be degraded fast enough in their limited space, so being able to thoroughly clean and remove them as they're deposited becomes even more important.

Bacteria and and fungi can produce a whole range of toxins that are primarily a threat to the respiratory tract, but they can also cause problems to the kidneys, liver, skin, and digestive track (if ingested). In fact, stomatitis (AKA skin rot) is a fungal infection. Even if you bake the soil, common airborne pathogens can still easily colonize the soil when water is spilled or tracked out of the water dish or when the snake urinates/defecates.

My advise is just not to go too long between soil changes and switch to a healthier substrate after your next change. Most of the time, there isn't a problem, but it's a real shame when easily preventable problems affect the health of your snake.

The short recap is that soil retains moisture, provides nutrients, prime growing space, and becomes a good breeding ground for bacteria and fungi, which are harmful to snakes that are continually re-exposed in their limited space. Kind regards,

Rick

[adamanteus]

I'm in total agreement. I once kept some Vipera berus in a very "natural" set-up, including soil. It looked great when I first did it, but it was close on impossible to maintain.

[Gyre]

Woah, Ok.. Yes, that all makes sense.

Alright, back on topic then.. I've heard that papertowels are really clean and cheap, but I'd hate to take away her digging space. She's always got her head in the dirt..

Are the beddings from, say, Petsmart any better then newspaper/papertowels? I'm switching to aspen bedding for my rat, but that's prob'ly not great for snakes.

[Cazador]

There are a continuum of healthy and not-so-healthy choices for substrate. It could be taken to an extreme (rediculous example alert) of just keeping them on glass and bleaching it daily. At the other end is probably fecally-covered soil. Someone will always say that one substrate is better than another, and most of the time they'll be correct, but unless you want to end up bleaching your glass substrate daily, most of the choices in between are probably just fine.

I've never used aspen bedding, but it's attractive, has anti-microbial properties, and is fairly cheap. I think the main concern is that it sticks to moist foods and can be easily ingested. Perhaps someone who has used it for quite a while could offer better advice. If you choose, it, you might decide to feed them in another enclosure or offer their food in a bowl to minimize the amount of aspen that they might ingest.

Crazyhedgehog did a great job of discussing the pros and cons of various substrates in the Care Sheet Section. Have a look: (http://www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet).

[KITKAT]

I've never used aspen bedding, but it's attractive, has anti-microbial properties, and is fairly cheap. I think the main concern is that it sticks to moist foods and can be easily ingested. Perhaps someone who has used it for quite a while could offer better advice. If you choose, it, you might decide to feed them in another enclosure or offer their food in a bowl to minimize the amount of aspen that they might ingest.

I use aspen bedding, and have for about three years. It does a nice job of being clean and easy to change... and between changes, I can scoop out a spot and replace just that spot. I tend to keep my snakes in huge aquaria, and I change the complete bedding once a month, with scoop and replace in the weeks between.

Now that I have had the ill luck of getting a snake almost eaten by a cage mate, I am always there for feeding time... and that means that I not only watch for accidents between the two snakes, but I also watch for aspen getting stuck to the food. I actually stand there and use a pair of fine pointed forceps, and will "pluck" a piece of offending shavings from the food while it is being ingested. At first, my snakes will drop the food and run... but eventually they get used to my interference, and as long as I move quickly and efficiently, they ignore me.

When I am not able to stand there and watch them feed, I use the kind of plastic boxes that one might use to transport a Boa or Python, and feed each snake in its own box, with no substrate at all... just the garter and the food, which is sometimes on the floor of the box, and sometimes on a dish, depending on the food item.

I just come back about a half hour later and return them to their tanks...

[adamanteus]

Okay...trans-Atlantic translation required......Aspen bedding? Show us a picture if you could please.

[KITKAT]

Aspen is a tree that lives in the western part of the US. The wood is rather white, and somewhat soft, even though it is a deciduous tree.

Aspen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspen)

Cedar and Pine Wood Shavings - Problems and Toxicity (http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/reptilesgeneral/a/woodshavings.htm)

[adamanteus]

I'm aware of the tree...just wondered how it looks in a viv. Have you got a picture?

[KITKAT]

I can get you a pic, but it won't be today... too much prep for travel on spring break.

But basically, it looks the same as pine shavings.

Here is a pic of a guinae pig on aspen:

Guinea Pigsations - All About Guinea Pigs (http://www.freewebs.com/guineapigsations/beddingmaterial.htm)

[adamanteus]

I'm sure it's great, but I'm not sure I like the look of it (from a purely aestetic point of view) for snakes. Just personal preference, I guess.

[KITKAT]

Ah... I am all pragmatic. Aesthetics means little when one has a cat rescue to run, a real job, a show cat cattery, and pet garters that live in one of the cat rooms (where the cats are caged).:rolleyes:

[Gyre]

Thank you everyone, :)

I read the article on substrates. That was extremely helpful, and also your input, Kitkat, was very helpful. I think that since my snake eats almost exclusively from my hand, and I'm always right there, that ingesting the bedding wouldn't be much of a problem.. Aspen is sounding pretty good right now. :)

Thanks a ton,
Hannah

[sschind]

I've been using a product called aspen crumbles from sun seed. It looks nice, is easy to clean and allows burrowing. It is an aspen product obviously but rather than shavings of wood it is made from the bark of the tree The only drawback is that mold can grow under water dishes if they overflow. I've solved this problem by either using elevated water bowls that have the added benefit of providing a hide underneath or making sure I place the water dish directly on the glass.

[bubdonna]

Hi I have not been doing this for very long about a year now, I have tried several things & the best for me & the snakes so far that i have found for smell & look & easy clean, I went to walmart & bought a outside throw matt size 3feet x 3feet for about $10, then cut a few matts to put in the tank, i also cut them a bit bigger so they fold up the sides about 1/2 inch or so, it is rubber backed so it tucks down in the corners & holds the to is a slightly raised wover material with vertical grooves color came in grey or brown, i have 2 snakes small ones in a 12 x 15 x30 tank, change it 1 time a week through the old one in the shower & let the hot water wash it, & when it drys in about 1/2 hour it could be ready to go, but i have 3 so not needed, the rubber back does not let any thing bleed through, & the texture & grooves keep the snakes off the bottom surface slightly, i also have a piece of plexie glass cut about 7 inches to use as a divider in the tank so i have a seperate room sort of 7inches high & 7 inches from 1 wall that i used a small piece of duct tape to hold upright in place, that seperate section i fill with that grey substate kinda fluffy material made for snakes in the pet store, now my 2 snakes like that they climb up over the wall & make tunnels & compartments in that, that way it last so much longer cause its away from there water bowl & food, also seem like they dont soil that stuff they kinda soil the matt material, works out very well, hope you can picture it?
bubdonna:)

[lukeskywalker]

I use Eco Earth Expandable substrate. It is made out of coconut fiber, it looks like dirt, and the peices are tiny. Luke burrows through it all the time. I have moss on top of it in some of the enclosure, and I grew some organic oat grass in some parts too. He burrows through it all the time, and there are rocks around the water dish to keep him from dragging substrate into the water. I spray it down right before I feed him worms because it tends to stick alot less than when it is dry... the pieces are tiny, so I don't think there is much risk for impaction.

Im going to try growing other things, like violas, to give him some stronger plants to play around in.

Thanks for the info on the burrowing substrate! I'm going to try it in my emeperor scorpion's enclosure

[Stefan-A]

Has anybody here noticed any differences in how smelly different substrates get? I recently switched from peat to paper towels and the difference is huge. With paper towels, you know the second you enter the room if somebody has taken a dump. Peat was completely odorless.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's important to clean it up right away, but it's easy enough to notice even without the smell.

[Sid]

I'm aware of the tree...just wondered how it looks in a viv. Have you got a picture?

James,
Check my photos in the gallery. Many show Aspen as substrate. Work good for me, but not a lot of eye appeal.

Sid

[Cazador]

Has anybody here noticed any differences in how smelly different substrates get?


Definitely! This is a huge drawback for paper towels, newspaper, and astroturf. They're great in a quarantine tank, though, since they prompt you to clean as quickly as possible.

[Stefan-A]

Glad to hear that it's not just me. :)

That's it, I'm switching to something else. The corn in the quarantine tank can keep it, but the garters are getting something better than peat or paper.

[abcat1993]

Trust me, you don't know what smelly means until you have a hamster with that fluffy bedding. I can't walk past my sisters room without dying or holding my breath (usually I choose to hold my breath though).

[Snaky]

I've been using peat now for some weeks, I have to say that till I find the smells ok. It's more or less like when I used little pieces of wood. I have to admit that paper towels don't absorb that well and are a bit more smelly:)

[drache]

this guy I met recently who used to own a reptile store suggested shredded paper
he says that's what he keeps his snakes on
he says it's more absorbent than regular paper and free once you have a shredder
it's also easier to remove small patches
I haven't tried it but I'm considering it
I'd make sure not to shred paper with weird chemicals
maybe I'll try it with one of the kings

[Marcel_h]

I use peat mixed with bark it doesent smell and it looks natural.

[RedSided]

I use hemp shavings, local reptile store recomended it. It seems good enough and spot cleans easily.

[adamanteus]

I know it has it's drawbacks (as do most substrates in a captive environment) but I'm still surprised that no one else has gone for a similar approach to mine.....i.e. a "permanent" substrate such as slate.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//537/medium/Slate_floor.jpg

It's dead easy to spot clean, it doesn't harbour parasites at all, it warms nicely and stays warm, it looks good (in my opinion) and it's never going to get ingested! I would be interested to hear your arguments against it.

[sschind]

James: My only argument against a permanent substrate is that it is completely non absorbent. If the snake takes a dump and you are not Johnny (or in this case James) on the spot to clean it up the snake can crawl through it and spread it around and get it all over itself and in general make one heck of a mess. When I first bought my store the previous owner had a bearded dragon in a large cage with linoleum tiles as a floor. It stunk, the dragon stunk, and the whole room stunk. It was the first thing I changed.

The only suggestion I would make to anyone contemplating a solid substrate is to make sure every single little crack is sealed to keep liquid waste from seeping into cracks.

It does look nice though and I am sure that the heat retention is appreciated by the snakes.

Steve

[adamanteus]

That's a good and valid point, Steve. You do have to be there to keep on top of the cleaning up. The beauty of it is that it takes seconds to do.

Secure sealing is essential, especially around the edges where the substrate meets the walls, if anything nasty was to seep in it would be there for ever.

[Gyre]

I just switched to peat two days ago. Not nearly enough time for me to have good or bad feelings about it..

I do like the way your substrate looks, James. I just think they should be able to burrow.. I don't know if all snakes do it so much, but it seems to be my snake's favourite passtime.. That and chasing my fingers. :P

[Boots]

I am not sure if anyone has meantioned it already, but I used Corn-cob bedding, when I got my first garter all those many years ago. I never had any problem with it, and it was really easy to clean up. Anyone else had any experence using it?

Jason

[adamanteus]

I've seen corn-cob bedding used quite widely by stores and keepers in the UK. Never used it myself though.

[sschind]

I have two negatives about corn cob. If ingested it swells rather than breaks down, and when wet it gets slimy and moldy very quickly. Both things you can prevent (the ingestion and getting wet not the swelling and molding) but for my money its not as good as the aspen crumble bedding and it doesn't look as nice. It is probably cheaper however.

Steve

[northeastexotics]

I use aspen bedding, all my snakes are in plastic bins on racks, when you have close to 400 snakes, you need the most economical and easiest way to maintain them, however I am looking more at making a bunch of more natural looking cages for my snakes.

But I have used apsen bedding for years, I am not sure of impaction, but in the past few years, I have had 5 snakes mysteriously croak on me that other wise seemed healthy snakes, but even 5 snakes is only like a 1.2% death rate of my entire collection.

[KITKAT]

I have been using aspen bedding for some time now and so far, no worries! But I watch feeding time carefully, and have been known to grab a piece of bedding right out of their mouths when they start to ingest it...

[KITKAT]

Well, now that Stefan-A switched to newspaper, I'm checking out peat. Let's see how good it is to absorbs odors and how easy it will be to clean it...:)

Is that actual dried peat moss, or Michigan peat? I once kept shrews (was doing research) on Michigan peat, and discovered that it caused lung problems.

[Stefan-A]

In my case, it's actual dried peat moss. Wouldn't surprise me one bit, it's like wood dust when it's totally dry. But I found a substitute, it's a kind of bark mulch used in gardens. Cheap stuff, but I hope they don't swallow it.

[drache]

I'm trying to switch from newspaper - so far with mixed results
everything else I've tried so far ends up in the grooves of the sliding doors
I've thought of that repti-carpet stuff, but then I have to take everything out when it needs to get changed
the newspaper I put in in smaller overlapping sections, and I put in several layers, so that I can just whip out soiled sections and about every six weeks the whole thing gets redone
I wonder whether there's a way to segment the repti-carpet - like tiles
some of my cages have stuff on top of the paper, like some carefresh or some loose sphagnum moss

has anyone here tried that new excavator substrate for any of their other critters?
it's sort of off-topic, since garters don't really dig
I was thinking my hognose might like it

[KITKAT]

Sounds like you need a "litter dam". This is an addition to the viv that helps hold the litter away from the sliding doors.

I can also tell you that a vacumn cleaner nozzle will remove the litter from the door tracks!;)

[drache]

Sounds like you need a "litter dam". This is an addition to the viv that helps hold the litter away from the sliding doors.

I can also tell you that a vacumn cleaner nozzle will remove the litter from the door tracks!;)

litter dam?
that's an actual thing that works?
I've been wracking my brain and all I could come up with was airline tubing - my answer to many small annoying problems
so is it something I can make myself?
we don't have a "real" vacuum cleaner
I can see that it would come in handy with "real" substrate

[KITKAT]

Here are two sites that mention this type of construction. I think you would have to modify your current cage to create this. Perhaps you could glue a strip on the inside of the sliding door track, to deepen the area that holds the litter...

Arachnofreaks Forum: New reptile enclosure build (http://www.arachnofreaks.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3297&TPN=1)

http://www.kingsnake.com/TARAS/contents/cage.doc

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Well, I think this thread may have finally put an end to my wonderings about pine/cedar shavings.
It's what I have been using, and the snake doesn't seem to mind it. It's "Pestell" brand, 100% natural, air-dried Canadian Pine, aromatic but not strong smelling or oily.
But, rather than take any chances, I suspect next time I do any work in the tank (over the next several days) that will be the last of the shavings. Does everyone agree with this? I've read so many different opinions on pine/cedar.
This decision leads me to another inquiry: personally, I don't mind if there's newspaper in there. It's relatively ugly, but my snakey makes up for any lack of appeal in the bedding. However, I have read that BLANK or UN-PRINTED newspaper is best. Surely that makes sense, however, getting that unprinted stuff is a pain in the neck, especially living out in the sticks where I do. So, does anyone have insight on whether normal printed newspaper is OK or not? I've got loads of that, and fresh stuff comes every week ;)

[drache]

I have read somewhere that you should let it sit for a few weeks to make sure the ink is done drying and off-gassing, but I wonder whether that's still the case with the soy-based inks they are now using

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Yes, exactly. The soy and vegetable-oil based inks -- one would think they'd be relatively harmless, compared to whatever agents they used to use..

[enigma200316]

here is what I do, I use the paper as a lining and put a small amount of Aspen on top seems to work greatly............as for cedar or pine I wouldn't use it...:eek: and for feeding with the shavings so they don't eat any of it I use a plate or large lid to put the food on, and haven't had a problem so far..........:)

[GrapefruiTgirl]

How many peoples' snakes around here HAVE eaten some wood shavings/pieces, and what in general has been the outcome? I mean, how dangerous IS it? How common are impactions? Surely snakes eat stuff along with their food in the wild, and it probably doesn't kill many of them. Opinions?

P.S - Speaking of... I'm not the type to let an idea sit around in my head, and so as of right now, I have remodeled snakeys house around her again, removing all the shavings, leaving the brown paper in the bottom, and just placing all the rocks back in here and there, and her water pool. Gave her a couple salamanders (her favourite snack) and it's all good :)

[Lori P]

I keep thinking the same thing... surely wild snakes end up ingesting bark and twigs nad plenty of dirt with their meals... I guess the difference is, the substrates we give them may not be as natural for them?

[enigma200316]

well there is a bit of diff. between eatting some dirt, and a piece of wood......but as for impactions it may not happen the first or second, but
if they keep eatting the shaving it will happen eventualy, its better either to feed them in an area where they can't swallow the shavings or in a seperate tank that has no shavings in it..........of course my opinion....:)

[Lori P]

I think you're right... like with anything, prevention is worth a pound of cure... and why not prevent the problem to begin with.

[GrapefruiTgirl]

Good points. Prevention is the key.
Now I'll be waiting for the next time she poops, a sure sign of good health.
And no more shavings!

[i of the storm]

I bought the aspen stuff, what a mess. I think I'll use it to mulch the Hostas. We decided on carefresh today and the snakes can move in it well. Oh, and it now comes in colors, so we have pink.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

i dont know if any1 mentioned this but i use eco earth, its coocnut fibers and it comes confressed in brick sized blocks then you soak it in water and it expands like 6 times the size doesnt smell absorbs the poo its easy to dig in because it light and fluffy and okay to pass through snakeys :), and they love it

[GrapefruiTgirl]

That sounds like great stuff, reedk-- that coconut fibre stuff is used for many different things, as a nontoxic substance.
Well, I just cleaned out snakys home--- not to the full extent that I bleached the entire structure in the bathtub :) as I did that a week or so ago, but I bleached and scrubbed everything in it, and redecorated the tank for her again ;) LOL it always amuses her to come back home and find the furniture rearranged.
Plus, two good things:
1 - I got a bag of Aspen today, so she's got a safe substrate in one half of her home to dig in, and
2 - I had been wondering if she didn't poo very often and had been waiting for her to do it a few more times so I'd be sure her insides weren't having any substrate-ingestion troubles, and GEEEZ, when I took the furniture out I found like 5 poos! LOL, she must be working fine :)

SIdenote: They only had one 4-pack of pinkies today, so I got a 4-pack of fuzzies to go along with it. In 3-4 weeks, I'll post about whether she eats and/or likes the fuzzies :)

[Lulu Bennett]

i dont know if any1 mentioned this but i use eco earth, its coocnut fibers and it comes confressed in brick sized blocks then you soak it in water and it expands like 6 times the size doesnt smell absorbs the poo its easy to dig in because it light and fluffy and okay to pass through snakeys :), and they love it

that sounds like the stuff i was using but it began to wind me up because it took solong to dry. you put it in a wooden viv even slightly damp and the lamp and mat with turn it into condensation and drench the place. i now have a load of water blisters on the back of the viv even though it felt dry

[Josh]

Hey currently i am using reptile carpet for my babies and eco earth for my radix female adult

[Lulu Bennett]

i am interested in the reptile carpet but can't seem to find any

[Josh]

well it was terribly expensive at one place but by the brand r-zilla it was 5 bucks for a ten gallon
also it was shown as terraium liner.

[RZL36]

Aspen is great. It gives the opportunity for the snakes to hide a little more and burrow. As long as you feed them in a separate container everything should be okay.

[drache]

I've gotten to like the carefresh, because they can burrow
on the other hand I've ripped apart entire enclosures because I thought I'd lost a snake
and I don't care much for the acidy smell, when it's fresh, but I think it inhibits bacteria
and it's the one think that's easy to get out of sliding rails

[Whitf]

I'm a bit new at all this, but I have a mix:

About 75% of the tank is dry carefresh.

I have a small, shallow try in the tank that has coconut shavings, moistened (just slightly damp like earth, not soaking wet).

He really, really likes the damp earth part, but also spends plenty of time in the dry stuff.

Any thoughts or objections to this system? I'd really appreciate it.

[drache]

I've been gradually switching all of my animals that are not obviously into burrowing away from carefresh, because I have too many and it's gotten too pricey
for now I've settled on cage carpet for most of them and find I don't mind taking out everything near as much as I thought I did
I just have spares and switch them out to wash
seems good so far

[infernalis]

We use Aspen shavings, coconut "Eco earth", reptile bark, corn cob granules, stringy moss and cage carpet. (not all at the same time, nor in the same cage)

Never buy carefresh, too expensive.

It depends on the animal, the cage and the overall look I am after.

Since I feed nearly all my animals by hand, ingesting substrate is not a problem.

Well, the Anoles I use coconut exclusively, the crickets can dig in it, and I tried aspen once, the Anoles kept getting mouthfuls of it when they ate, so I stick with the coconut.

[jitami]

Just bought a bag of carefresh. I have it in the babies' tank all set up just waiting for babies :D and it actually looks better than I thought it would. I only used a small portion of the bag, so it's really not cost prohibitive for my two tanks. If it's as easy to clean as everyone says I'll probably stick with it.

[Loren]

I use paper towels for young snakes, Fine grade orchid bark (similar to repti-bark, but from Orchard Supply) or aspen shavings/shredded aspen for adults, other than a couple desert snakes on sand. Mostly use the aspen in racks/tubs. I like the Orchid bark for the aquariums.

[GartersRock]

I use paper towels for all snakes. :rolleyes:

[infernalis]

I use paper towels for all snakes. :rolleyes:

I somehow imagined something else:o

Designer prints?????

[drache]

if you use the recycled, unbleached paper towels, it looks a lot less clinical (they're brown)
of course, if you're using it to get a good look at feces and stuff like that, the white kind is better

[GartersRock]

I was mostly kidding. lol! But I do use them sometimes. And for certain snakes that JUST make the biggest messes EVERY day! Like that reduced pattern steel grey wandering of mine. I had to switch her to permanent paper towel duty, because she makes a mess of anything else... :rolleyes:

[infernalis]

Just got some more of the Corn Cob stuff, They (the snakes) seem to like it, and it clumps like cat litter.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/cob.jpg

[olive oil]

Is that the pellet stuff? I have been wondering about that.

[guidofatherof5]

I use corn cob but you must handfeed them. They will swallow it and it will cause a blockage if they can't pass it. A couple of my babies ingested some without me knowing it and days later I saw them throw it up. It's great stuff for keeping odor down and for easy spot cleaning. Its drawback is serious unless monitored very closely. I can get a 50lb bag for $21. That's way over priced since it costs them $8.33 a bag. The company that makes it is here in Iowa but will only sell it to me by the pallet load. That's overkill for me.

[Zephyr]

I was thinking about corn cob for my adults... It is very cheap, and I hand feed them anyways...
For babies I'm sticking with newspaper, and right now in the adult tank I have aspen.

[infernalis]

Here it is, and I always hand feed all my snakes anyways.

Yesterdays purchase was 911, I needed to clean some tanks, and did not have ANY substrate on hand. No desire to run off to the pet store for an $11 bag of aspen either.

I get my Zoo Med substrates at close to wholesale, but must wait for the package to arrive.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/1cob.jpg