Male/Female/Pregnant..?

[Gyre]

I'm pretty sure I know the sex.. Ha ha.. but just in case I'm more ignorant then I think. (And to show her off) Also, I'm sure many of you can judge this ten times better then I can, but does she look pregnant at all? I've done my best to feel her bower body, and I'm finding it hard to gain anything from that.. :confused:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/2006_0225sexing0015.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/2006_0225sexing0018.JPG
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//523/medium/2006_0221sword0008.JPG

Thanks a bunch for any info you've got.
Hannah

[Cazador]

That's a female, and she's large in the right area to be gravid (between her mid-point and her vent). Babies aren't difficult to feel, if you let her crawl between your thumb (on her back) and your fingers (under her belly). Gently press down so that she can crawl into her cage without too much effort, but hard enough that your finger tips press slightly into her abdomen (about 1/8" or 2mm). She'd feel lumpy if she were gravid. I couldn't see any obvious lumps, but that's not really out of the ordinary. How's her appetite?

P.S. Please don't call yourself ignorant. You're learning like every other intelligent person on the planet ;).

[KITKAT]

Rock-a-by baby.... in the substrate!

:D :rolleyes: :D

[Gyre]

How's her appetite?
Extremely good. I'm alternating between minnows and redworms. She'll eat four minnows, or five to six worms dayly. I'm sure she'd eat more, but that certainly seems like enough.. I don't want to over feed her.


P.S. Please don't call yourself ignorant. You're learning like every other intelligent person on the planet ;).
:p I know. I plan on keeping the questions coming.

[Cazador]

She'll eat four minnows, or five to six worms daily.

That could also be the reason she's so large... If these are 5-6" nightcrawlers or 2" minnows that she's getting daily, it would certainly explain her size. Even if they're only 2" worms, I'd only feed her about every 3-4 days, at most. You definitely need to cut her back at meal time.

Here's a "guideline" you might choose to follow: Feed babies daily, juveniles every 2-3 days, and fully grown adults once or twice a week.

There are two schools of thought for feeding gravid females. Some feed them as much food as they want as often as they want it, and others feed small portions every two days or so. I've found that the second method keeps the female eating longer throughout her gestation period and helps her maintain weight.

Given her past feeding schedule, I'm a bit skeptical that she's gravid, unless you're able to feel lumpy young as she crawls through your fingers. They shouldn't be up near the stomach (mid-point), they should be between the stomach and vent. Best wishes,
Rick

[snakeman]

Sometimes garters are just fat .I have had this double het female eastern that has looked gravid for the past three years.Every time I wind up getting nothing from her.

[Gyre]

I just got my hands on her this morning, and didn't feel much of anything.

I was feeding twice a week at first, but I started feeding her dayly when I looked at her and thought that maybe she was gravid. I read somehwhere to just feed as much as they'll eat, and that's what I've been doing for about two weeks.

Phew.. Thanks a ton. It's a bit of a relief actually, as entertaining as a litter would be. I was worried I'd wake up to 40 baby snakes slitherig around the tank. :)

Hannah

[suzoo]

Do you know when she may have bred? That would give an idea of a due date, and how gravid she should look.

[Gyre]

Do you know when she may have bred? That would give an idea of a due date, and how gravid she should look.

Yes, that is one of the only things I'm completely sure of. When I acuired her, I got a male at the same time, (Early Nov. o6) and they bred very frequently until the male died, about a month and a half ago. That sort of freaked me out, because he seemed to be healthy... That's when I started doing more nutritianal research. That's how I found the forum, actually.

Hannah

[Cazador]

Hannah,

I don't think you're out of the woods yet. Are you giving her calcium and vitamin supplements? It's better to be safe than sorry.

Rick

[Gyre]

Hannah,

I don't think you're out of the woods yet. Are you giving her calcium and vitamin supplements? It's better to be safe than sorry.

Rick

No, I haven't been, (though I was planning on picking some up once we dig out of all this snow..) I assume this is something I should be doing anyway, not just for a potentially gravid female, right?

Hannah

[Cazador]

It's a good idea to supplement their diet with Calcium plus vitamin D3. The vitamin D3 is "fat soluble," so it can accumulate to unhealthy levels, but it is also required to help them metabolize the calcium. Just drag the last inch of a worm through the powder about once every week or two. Then present the clean end to the snake (if you use tweezers). If not, the snake will automatically start eating the clean end, followed by the end with the calcium powder. It shouldn't be given with every meal because of the vitamin D3 issue, but additional calcium is good for growing snakes and their young.

Personally, I crush one B-complex multi-vitamin tablet into a powder and mix it into the entire jar of calcium powder as well. The B-complex vitamins are water soluble, so overdosing them isn't a big concern. Yet, I only add one tablet to the entire calcium container. For non-gravid snakes, I only give calcium every 2-3 weeks.

[Gyre]

Thank you so much for all the info, and I'm sure I'll be back in a matter of days with yet another question. :D

Hannah

[Gyre]

Quick update on my girl,

I still can't feel any obvious lumps, but she's down to eating about six midium rosies 2 times a week. Her appitite is good, (considering she's now eating anormal amount, not twice that, :P) but she's hidding away a little bit.

I don't know what this means perse, but until about last week she would eat readily from my hand, come up to me when I came to the room and even relax on my wrist while I typed.
Now she'll eat one from my hand, maybe, then eat the rest after I leave the room.

I'm I overly intune with this snake or are these slight changes something I should be taking note of?

Thanks for any help,
Hannah

[Cazador]

These changes aren't anything to worry about, but it's neat that you're that aware of your snake's habits. One thought is that if her digestive tract isn't always as full as it used to be, then you might be able to feel the young (if present) a little easier. Remember that you're not underfeeding her now. She's just on a healthier diet.

Studies have been done on snakes where one group of females isn't fed for the last month (sometimes more) of their pregnancy while another group is fed normally. One of the goals were to determine whether feeding them affects the size of their litter or just the condition of the female after she gives birth. It turns out that the lack of food doesn't affect litter size, number or live young, or size of individual offspring. It just affects the condition of the female following birth (and perhaps her ability to have multiple litters in a single year). This isn't true for a lot of organisms, but it specifically applies to at least T. elegans and probably at least to Thamnophis sp. in general.

Rick

[adamanteus]

It's good that you're aware of even subtle changes. They don't necessarily mean there's a problem, but at least you're in tune with your animals!

[Gyre]

Yes, I know. :p The week of over feeding did seem to help with the taming process at least. She's got her nose up to the glass whenever I come into the room.

Well, I care about this animal a lot. She's nothing fancy, but she has more personality then most small pets I've kept.. I never considered myself a reptile person, but since I've had her I find it hard to picture myself without at least one snake. I'm very excited about keeping different species eventually. CA. Red Sided are beautiful. :D

Really? That's pretty cool.. How long can a garter go without eating?

Hannah

[Gyre]

It's good that you're aware of even subtle changes. They don't necessarily mean there's a problem, but at least you're in tune with your animals!

lol :p That's one of my virtues apparently. My friend was teasing me because I realized my old hen had an arthritic toe.

[Cazador]

Hannah,

I hate to answer that question for fear that someone will push the limits, but a healthy snake with a little extra girth can go a long time without eating ;). Send me a PM if you really want more details.

Rick

[Gyre]

I understand, :)