Losses in Brumation.

[adamanteus]

Guys, as our regular readers will be aware, quite a few of our members have had Garters die during brumation this year.
So, who's up for a discussion on possible causes and how to avoid these losses in the future?
I haven't looked in on mine since December 20th, I prefer to leave them alone as much as possible at this time.... but I must admit I'm quite paranoid now, in view of other peoples' ill luck, so I'll be giving them all a thorough check tomorrow.
So what do we think? Wrong temps? Wrong humidity? Poor preparation? Or just plain bad luck?
This shouldn't be viewed as any kind of attack on those of us who have lost snakes during brumation, but rather as an opportunity to assess what we do and try to improve on it in the future.
Comments please.:)

[Zephyr]

Wrong humidity. I think that they should be kept a little moister, at least northern species, than we originally thought.

[adamanteus]

Wrong humidity. I think that they should be kept a little moister, at least northern species, than we originally thought.

Can you explain how you came to that conclusion, Kyle?:)

[Zephyr]

Can you explain how you came to that conclusion, Kyle?:)
I kept the substrate in the chamber I had my females in nearly bone dry. They had a large dish of water to soak in that I made sure was full. Apparently, even with a full dish of water, the humidity wasn't high enough. I think there may have been something to do with how they breathe at lower temperatures and moisture levels... Something along those lines... Some of the brumation resource websites I've checked say that dens are generally near rivers, lakes, etc. The den I found last year was on a river.

[snakeman]

What kind of substrate?I prefer the papertowels because the snakes run in and out of the bowl. getting the towels wet.With the lower temps I never had a blister problem.I really don't think garters need to brumate for 3 months.They are in and out of brumation all winter long.It was about 60 outside today.I am willing to bet garters were out today.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I don't know for sure....but natural causes is one possibility....Scott has lost a couple pretty much every year....but then he has several hundred snakes! when I brumated mine a few years ago in a fridge, I lost a bunch to humidity problems... wandering dens aren't always neat water...

[infernalis]

Just as an observation guys, The snakes here favor abandoned gopher burrows, the water table in my valley is rather close to the surface, the humidity down in those gopher burrows is very high.

I know this because I have dug with a backhoe and at 6-8 feet down my hole will start taking on water. The holes MUST be below the frost line, not necessarily for the snakes, But the gophers hibernate down in those holes for the winter.

So reasoning and logic say that it has to be damp in those burrows.

I recently lost 3 snakes to dehydration, and they were not in brumation at all, the air was just too dry.

As I said at the onset of this posting, nothing more than my observation, and not supportive nor unsupported to why these snakes perished in captive brumation.

My mind says high humidity this time of year has to factor into the equation somehow.

BTW James EXCELLENT topic for discussion, I will certainly be reading every single post made in this thread.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think that for us to truely know what is best for our garters during brumation, data from a wide range of dens, near and far from water, for a bunch of different species would need to be sampled. As well as the overall health of the snakes in the different conditions... and which types snakes frequent the most. I think that if we were able to do that, we would find that not all garter snake dens are the same conditions across the board. Some will be dry, some will be damp, some will be cooler or warmer and some will have hundreds of snakes, while others just a few, but all will still carry snakes through a winter to emerge happily in spring. My dad accidentally dug up a small den of about 40 snakes about a month ago. They were in the middle of a field... near the top of a hill... no water in sight! They were just packed tightly together in the ground, literally every empty crevice had been filled with snake coils! None of the snakes got hurt but unfortunately he had destroyed their den. I hope they made it somewhere else in time.

We only know one thing for certain... temps near freezing are bad, and temps that allow them to be active for too much of their brumation have a negative effect as well. I am willing to bet that parasites may play a role in the deaths of some of our snakes during brumation. If the wrong snake catches the wrong thing, he could live without any ill effects because his body is able to keep things in check...and he does alright with it until brumation comes along and slows him down, it gives the bugs the edge and while most parasites do not aim to kill their host, when their host is vulnerable, inactive... etc, sometimes they can over-do it and kill them anyways.

Humidity I am sure is an issue, but the question is, is it too wet, or too dry? Wouldn't the snakes show some kind of respiratory distress before suddenly dropping dead? My snakes are being brumated in "dry" cages, but the hygrometer says the air humidity is 70 to 80 percent down there.

[infernalis]

Very well thought out and said Shannon.

Reminds me of the old car I ripped from the ground a few years back, It was buried, but not real deep, and the main "fill" was old garbage that the previous owners of the land had dumped there.

Chances are, it was no where near as moist as the gopher holes, yet it was a very "popular" den.

[drache]

my thoughts on the matter are very much like Shannon's
garters have evolved to survive in many different conditions and one answer is just not going to fit all of them
additionally, while many are extremely tolerant of all sorts of conditions, there may be some specific local subspecies that might need a pretty specific range, in terms of temps as well as humidity

[Sid]

Like James, it would be very interesting if we could pin point reasons for losses.

I always burmate mine in the crawl space under my house. So temps, ect. always very much like in nature. I have never lost a snake during burmation (knock on wood).

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I checked my humidity guage down there tonight... humidity in the basement is 90%. The garters are all doing well...

[Stefan-A]

Dehydration is supposed to be a major killer during brumation in the wild and garters in the wild (and apparently in captivity, too) are known to submerge themselves in water during brumation. And apparently, it increases their survival rate drastically if they're able to do it. I think I have an article on it somewhere and I'm positive it's mentioned in The Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology.

I'm not convinced that high humidity would be a bad thing, quite the opposite.

[Loren]

I am willing to bet that parasites may play a role in the deaths of some of our snakes during brumation. If the wrong snake catches the wrong thing, he could live without any ill effects because his body is able to keep things in check...and he does alright with it until brumation comes along and slows him down, it gives the bugs the edge and while most parasites do not aim to kill their host, when their host is vulnerable, inactive... etc, sometimes they can over-do it and kill them anyways.
I absolutely agree with this theory-I've been thinking the same thing the past few weeks- and also with the thought that more needs to be learned about proper humidity in brumation. I am willing to bet these are the main 2 issues. Since garters are often fed items other than the standard f/t rodents, it is very feasable that they could harbor parasites. I have definitely had more health issues with non-rodent eating snakes in my collection, in general.

As Stefan was hitting on, I think possibly a mid-brumation soak or 2 might be worthwhile.

I've never been one for vet bills, especially not on a dead snake- but it may be worthwhile to have a professional examination done on a couple of these casualties(by a good herp vet), as soon as possible after death, to help determine the cause.

[Stefan-A]

I wouldn't force the snake to "take a bath" mid-brumation, but in my very humble opinion, they should be given a large enough bowl just in case they feel like it. A simple soak is probably not going to do much good, anyway.

It might look like I suggested that submerging would prevent dehydration (which it might perhaps do, but that's beside the point) but I was thinking of two different things when I wrote it. The first was that dehydration is a problem, the second was that snakes in the wild can IIRC cut their energy consumption significantly by submerging themselves.

[Loren]

Agreed, although I have witnessed snakes drinking heavily when put into water, even when they had a bowl.
Stefan not disagreeing at all, but rather, out of curiosity, how does soaking lower energy consumption?

[Stefan-A]

how does soaking lower energy consumption?
Not a clue.

I could say "By lowering its metabolism", but that's not really an answer. Although it is apparently correct.

[Zephyr]

Another good question... Why do garters soak in brumation? Aside from the hydration aspect, especially if their environment is already humid enough.

[Stefan-A]

Does anybody happen to have this one lying around?

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/article-u-garters.jpg


It was referred to in the following article:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/article-u-garters2a.jpg

An excerpt from that article:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/article-u-garters2b.jpg

[Zephyr]

Well... Assuming that garters in captivity are the only ones with access to "bowls of water" how would species brumating away from water sources soak?
I think the main problem is that we don't have any good data from inside an actual garter den.

[Stefan-A]

Well... Assuming that garters in captivity are the only ones with access to "bowls of water" how would species brumating away from water sources soak?
I suppose they wouldn't.

[Zephyr]

I suppose they wouldn't.So then they'd be relying strictly on environmental humidity... Hmm.

[Stefan-A]

So then they'd be relying strictly on environmental humidity... Hmm.
Those that don't brumate in places where water gathers. Underground the humidity would still probably be close to 100% (<-- Note: figure pulled out of arse. Read very, very high humidity.)

[Loren]

yeah, from what i understand, many burrows, even in some desert climates, hold very high humidity.

[adamanteus]

I think we're getting close to something here, guys. Maybe next year I'll brumate some 'test snakes' at various (well recorded) humidity levels, from very dry to very moist.... see what I can learn.

[Zephyr]

Those that don't brumate in places where water gathers. Underground the humidity would still probably be close to 100% (<-- Note: figure pulled out of arse. Read very, very high humidity.)
lol
Arse.
So I guess we've found one of the main problems to be ambient humidity.
What about resp. infections?

[Loren]

i dunno much about resp. infections.

By the way- i should point out that although i have brumated many snakes, i have never brumated a garter.

[adamanteus]

What about resp. infections?

Time for me to pull something out of my arse......
Isn't the risk of any type of infection greatly reduced at very low temperatures?

[Stefan-A]

I think we're getting close to something here, guys. Maybe next year I'll brumate some 'test snakes' at various (well recorded) humidity levels, from very dry to very moist.... see what I can learn.
Do it properly, with multiple groups per humidity level and multiple snakes per group. Document everything in detail and publish it as a scientific paper. I think it was a minimum of three individuals per group and a minimum of three groups per experiment. Anything less than that and you wouldn't get enough information for a reliable statistical analysis. We used 5*3*3 in our marine isopod experiment.

If I had 27 garters (assuming that you'd be testing 3 different humidity levels) of the same species, I'd do it myself. :D

[Stefan-A]

lol
Arse.
Yes, unfortunately we cannot say the word that Bender uses the most. It comes out like this: ***.

[Zephyr]

Brumation is seeming more and more like a double-edged sword... Loren, what do you do if they go off feed?

[adamanteus]

Do it properly, with multiple groups per humidity level and multiple snakes per group. Document everything in detail and publish it as a scientific paper. I think it was a minimum of three individuals per group and a minimum of three groups per experiment. Anything less than that and you wouldn't get enough information for a reliable statistical analysis.

Yes indeed, three groups of five snakes per experiment (3 experiments, low, medium and high humidity) was what I had in mind. I'll use all young radix. I will almost certainly have in excess of 50 young radix next year.

[Stefan-A]

Time for me to pull something out of my arse......
Isn't the risk of any type of infection greatly reduced at very low temperatures?
I've got nothing.

On one hand, microbes would be far less active at low temperatures, but on the other hand, there's the issue of whether or not the temperature has a significant effect on snake's ability to fight them.

[adamanteus]

I've got nothing.

On one hand, microbes would be far less active at low temperatures, but on the other hand, there's the issue of whether or not the temperature has a significant effect on snake's ability to fight them.

As I say, straight out of my arse! That's a subject for another experiment!:rolleyes:

[Loren]

Brumation is seeming more and more like a double-edged sword... Loren, what do you do if they go off feed?
(Knocking on wood) my garters all eat year round. So my answer is - I dont know. :)
My general rule is that only animals that will breed, and animals that go off feed, get brumated. So I suppose I might brumate them. Although some of my animals get kept warm year round even if they go off feed. Depends on how well they hold body condition.
I am actually in the process of checking on my brumators as we speak.

[Zephyr]

(Knocking on wood) my garters all eat year round. So my answer is - I dont know. :)
My general rule is that only animals that will breed, and animals that go off feed, get brumated. So I suppose I might brumate them. Although some of my animals get kept warm year round even if they go off feed. Depends on how well they hold body condition.
I am actually in the process of checking on my brumators as we speak.
... Does outdoor sunlight get into your reptile room?

[Loren]

"... Does outdoor sunlight get into your reptile room?"

No. The windows are cover with insulating panels. the only light on during the day comes from the 4 heat lamps that are on my desert lizards. so it is a dim/medium light throughout the room. My room is kept 72-85 (preferably 75-85) night/day. Some garters have flexwatt as well. Some just have ambient temps. All 8 species/subspecies are still eating, as are my gulf coast ribbons. I feed according to body condition. The growing ones are eating every few days. The plump adults get a meal every 10-14 days maybe.

[Zephyr]

"... Does outdoor sunlight get into your reptile room?"

No. The windows are cover with insulating panels. the only light on during the day comes from the 4 heat lamps that are on my desert lizards. so it is a dim/medium light throughout the room. My room is kept 72-85 (preferably 75-85) night/day. Some garters have flexwatt as well. Some just have ambient temps. All 8 species/subspecies are still eating, as are my gulf coast ribbons. I feed according to body condition. The growing ones are eating every few days. The plump adults get a meal every 10-14 days maybe.
Hmm. Interesting. Makes me think that the main trigger for garter brumation is a change in the photo period.

[Loren]

Possibly/probably a good part of it- along with temps of coarse. Something I might be trying soon with a couple of my snakes is to give them direct flourescent lighting for several hours a day to see if it perks them out of their fasting.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

My snakes eat year round too... save for the occasional stubborn ball python.... the couple garters I kept up are all still eating great!!

[anji1971]

I don't brumate mine, and they do go off feed for a while, but never a "complete" fast. I can coax them into taking a bit every couple of weeks during October and November, and then by December they (usually) start to pick up on their own. I just wait it out and leave them be.

[Zephyr]

Okay guys... I've got problems... All of my males that I've brought out of brumation are starting to eat. I have an adult female butler's who's decided to stop eating, a smaller wandering who may be doing the same, and a big red-sider female who may or may not be off food but I can't tell since one she's in shed and two she won't eat in front of me.
I'm thinking I should cool the butler's. I need your opinions though. She's still active, but so was my albino checkered when she stopped eating and I tried to wait things out with her... She passed. ):

[adamanteus]

If you're sure they're off food, Kyle, it couldn't hurt to chill them down for a couple of week, if you don't want to go for the full brumation. Sometimes it's enough to stimulate their appetite.

[Zephyr]

Okay, I just found a new locale that I could do brumating in. Our attic is roughly 20 degrees warmer than the outside air. It's 33 out and about 50 in the attic. Could I do brumating in there? If I insulated their container, would they be okay when the temperature dips?

[infernalis]

So Kyle, before you do this, remember the sun is hitting the roof right now, Measure the temps tonight when it goes down, and there is no radiant heat from the light to raise it up.

Basements are more stable, but yours is heated I assume (from pictures I have seen you post)

[Zephyr]

So Kyle, before you do this, remember the sun is hitting the roof right now, Measure the temps tonight when it goes down, and there is no radiant heat from the light to raise it up.

Basements are more stable, but yours is heated I assume (from pictures I have seen you post)My basement is heated when I want it to be. lol
Normally it's in the low 60's down here, but I can turn on the electric fireplace to bring it into the low 70's. I'll do another measurement at about 11 tonight.

[Snake lover 3-25]

i have been putting mine in the basement which is 55-60 and they all do fine.... and it brings meadow out of her fasting every year???

[Zephyr]

It hit 4 degrees Celsius in my attic. I'm thinking it's a little risky. We do have a "Crawl space" near out pantry where they would stay cool... The red-sided female shed today, and showed little interest in food, so I'll be decreasing their photoperiod and moving them down here within the next week.
It's a good 62 here now, I'm sure it's about 58 under the stairs.

Also... I have two baby butler's and one little eastern refusing food, as well as my dekay's. Could I put them all together? I don't think cannibalism would be a problem.

[drache]

I have found that that oil-filled radiator has a thermostat with a low enough setting that it kicks in at around 45ºF
I created an area that's sort of tented by space blankets and has the heater inside
basically it's a group of tanks with some insulation and the space blankets
the sunporch is about 10º higher than outside at night and I've not needed the extra heat very much
I did bring in the anery radix yesterday, just because they looked dry

I don't think that grouping would be a problem, Kyle

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Kyle, as long as they have all passed the quarantine process.... I don't see why not. Dekayi's and garters are often found together in the wild!

[Zephyr]

Good news. The dekay's ate today. :) She must've been a little jumpy because she was in shed, but she was a little hesitant at food... I'm crossing my fingers and hoping she'll still eat at the next feeding.
As for the garters... They're going to have to be cooled. Today's feeding day for the babies, so hopefully I can get the one eastern and the butler's to eat.

[Zephyr]

Got an accurate temp from under the stairs. About 60, and I'm sure it drops a little more in the night. Sound okay for a quick cool-down?

[Tori]

This is the first year that I have brumated my snakes (98% garters). So far, I have lost 2. Both were w/c valley garters. All had water tubs large enough to completely submerse in. All have very high humidity, at 85% or higher at times. The temps where they are being kept stay around 44 degrees F. I have to assume that the valleys' still had parasites even after being treated before being brumated. I will be bringing them out of brumation within the next 3 weeks. With luck maybe the number of losses won't increase any.

[Zephyr]

Better news! The female red-sided ate! I'm happy. I've got two boys paired up with her right now... Fingers crossed... The butler's and wandering are down here ready for coolage.

[infernalis]

Better news! The female red-sided ate! I'm happy. I've got two boys paired up with her right now... Fingers crossed... The butler's and wandering are down here ready for coolage.

Good news kyle:D

[anji1971]

That's great Kyle! Good news is much nicer than what's been going on around here lately!

[Zephyr]

Only problem is I've got babies going off feed... Last year I did a mini brumation with my babies and all but one made it through okay. Do you think I should do that again if they don't eat?

[drache]

if it worked last year, why not?

[adamanteus]

Certainly if you think they're starting to lose weight, do it again.

[charles parenteau]

I put aspen bedding litter in the cage with a large water bowl ,big enough for all garter snake ,garter stay active during hibernation,they go in and out in water so the bedding becomes wet ,the humidity increase,moisture begin ...thats not good ,i change the bedding if necessary...
the water too.
In mid april or early may almost all garter I caught are full mud ,the strippes fade because of the mud ,sometime it need a shed to show the real colour.that means they are submerge or partialy submerge...They need hibernaculum with water in the bottom.what is the humidity in there I dont know???I know its stable...

I think that only healty snake should be in hibernation.in nature only the strongest survive ..Hibernation is a test for them.I think if your snake died during hibernation its because he was ill enough to die but not enough for you to notice something wrong.If many snake died its worst,you probably did mistake...I think its better in cool room with constant temperature rather than in the fridge .

[Scott F]

Hi everyone-This is a great topic to discuss. I used to brumate in mini refrigerators (back in the 80's) and had the same problem Don had, high condensation and humidity. Water would accumulate on the bottom of the lid and drip and most of the snakes got blisters. Now I brumate in a room (basement) in the mid 50's to low 60's, w/ minor fluctutations in temps above or below these temps for short periods of time. I house them in their same containers as they are in during the summer, however everything is cleaned just b4 putting down (water bowl, container, new newspaper for a hiding area and substrate is thoroughly cleaned out of all fecal/urine matter). Basically I set them up in a pristine conditions so to minimize the chance of die off. I used to check them monthly, until I had one that flipped a water bowl over and had a severe blister problem. Now I check them every 2 weeks, adding h20 to their water bowls if low, using heavy duty bowls so they can't flip them over. Some still manage to get the substrate wet, in which case I replace the entire cage's substrate. Wet substrate left for long periods of time can induce mold, which can be fatal. I do try and handle the snakes as little as possible when checking them however I have taken pics of them in the winter time, and if using caution, can do this w/ seemingly no ill effects. It's a lot easier to take their pics when brumating as they are much more lethargic, some do lose their colorful luster while hibernating though (infernalis, similis in particular).

All this being said, I have lost a handful every year, this year has been minimal so far (knock on wood). Baby garters seem to be extremely susceptible to die off if brumated in their first year (no clue why this is). If babies go off feed I put them down for 3-4 weeks (adults are down for about 4 months) and bring them back up. This has worked well and minimized neonate attrition immensely.

[drache]

hi Scott
good to see you here
thanks for the great detailed info

[guidofatherof5]

Welcome Scott, Nice to have you with us.

[infernalis]

Hello Scott...

Thanks for posting the great information.

[ssssnakeluvr]

well, it's about time!!!!!!! :cool: I lost a male red spot, a male red sider, and "frosty" the garter from december passed away too.....:( I guess his facial injuries finally took their toll. sucks....

[infernalis]

Bye bye Frosty....:(

[infernalis]

I go down into the basement every day and check.

So far so good.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Hi Scott!!!!:D:D:D:D:D:D

nice to have you here! take off your shoes, stay a while!!

[guidofatherof5]

Don,
So sorry to here about Frosty passing.

[ssssnakeluvr]

yea, it sucks...but with his injury, I wasn't sure he'd make it,but I tried!!! :o

[Scott F]

Thanks everyone, it is nice to be a part of a great community, pure thamnophis :).

Scott

PS Don sorry to hear that Frosty passed away.

[Snake lover 3-25]

welcome to the forum scott! great info! thanks!:D:D

[crzy_kevo]

hello scott glad to see you have finally joined us in a discussion :D

[anji1971]

Hi, Scott! Nice to see you really do exist.:D:D

[Scott F]

Thanks again everyone. There's about a month now b4 D day (breeding starts) so will attempt to be active here in the community b4 (and hopefully during).

Scott

[guidofatherof5]

Nice to have you with us, Welcome.

[Stefan-A]

Does anybody happen to have this one lying around?

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/article-u-garters.jpg


It was referred to in the following article:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/article-u-garters2a.jpg

An excerpt from that article:

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/snakesies08/article-u-garters2b.jpg
http://www.units.muohio.edu/cryolab/publications/documents/Costanzo88_CanJZoo.PDF

[guidofatherof5]

Great link, Thanks Stefan.

[count dewclaw]

No wonder my old shallow well is a popular brumation site for the wild garters around my house.

[Tori]

I found a copy of the article in pdf format for anyone that is interested. http://www.units.muohio.edu/cryolab/publications/documents/Costanzo88_CanJZoo.PDF

[Stefan-A]

Tori, I just posted that same link. :D

[infernalis]

Thanks Stefan & Tori.

I right clicked and saved it. So far it looks like a very interesting read.

[adamanteus]

It's a good link... definitely worth posting twice!

Back to the hunidity theory. Just a note: All my Garters are out of brumation now. The enclosures were furnished with toilet roll tubes and kitchen paper tubes as hides, most of these were damp and speckled with green mold by the end of brumation. All the snakes are clean and free of blisters..... no losses.

[Sid]

At this point there isn't any help from me on "burmation losses" (thank goodness). All mine are out of burmation, healthy and several have mated.

I did have a minor mite infestation in one group....all taken care of.

[Tori]

Oh shoot, sorry! I didn't notice the link at the bottom.