Rhea's garters and the occasional other beast

[gregmonsta]

The feisty parietalis .... guarding the fort :D

[stonyloam]

here's a snapshot of my favourite group


Just found this post. Don't know how I missed it, Chloe looks fantastic, and big! That flame is soooooo cute. Happy New Year!:D

[drache]

Chloe is no longer a small snake - she's one of my big ladies
happy new year to you also, Terry

here's a couple of Jackson and Don
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5250/5300985390_cfebf1974e_b.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5244/5300376853_df578faf31_b.jpg

I know - Jackson looks big for a male. I've had him probed a couple of times and he's definitely a male. So no - even though Don (the vagrans) tries mating with him seasonally, there's no chance of hybrids here

incidentally Jackson is as large as my concinnus female, and the same was true for another concinnus male I used to have. Is that normal for them?
I also have a very large marcianus male - wondering the same

[gregmonsta]

Xerxes - my concinnus - is by far the longest of my males and was easily the same length as Xena (she was definately girthier though).
Sangria (Xena's replacement) is taking her time growing up. I'm not sure if she'll match up to Xena's standard.
Another thing I've seen as a trend from my experience so far is that concinnus girls seem to have relatively long tails compared to other girls.

[mustang]

hey - I got them from Scott, not some street vendor on Canal Street in Chinatown
HEY THATS WHERE I GET MY PINKY's FROM :D
sorry had to do it.and it was a mental battle to choose between pinkys or MAGIC cards:p

[ConcinusMan]

Xerxes - my concinnus - is by far the longest of my males and was easily the same length as Xena (she was definately girthier though).
Sangria (Xena's replacement) is taking her time growing up. I'm not sure if she'll match up to Xena's standard.
Another thing I've seen as a trend from my experience so far is that concinnus girls seem to have relatively long tails compared to other girls.

I suppose that would depend on what species the "other girls" are. Adult female concinnus' definitely have the girth when compared to males. Males get nearly as long at max size but they're almost always noticeably thinner than a female of the same length. males tend to have narrower heads too.

I don't see any reason to probe a concinnus, I mean, isn't it obviously male just by looking at it? If it isn't obvious, and the other snake tries to mate with him... makes me suspicious.

Concinnus male: (cannot possibly be mistaken for female:confused:)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g302/ssssnakeluvr/DSCF9043.jpg

[drache]

the reason I got him probed is because the other male keeps wanting to mate with him and I doubted my visual ID. also - he has evinced no interest in the female, so I thought it would be prudent to get some definite answer before I put him back into the boys' tank (this was spring/early summer)
I've got no problems visually sexing my other thamnophis

[gregmonsta]

I don't see any reason to probe a concinnus, I mean, isn't it obviously male just by looking at it? If it isn't obvious, and the other snake tries to mate with him... makes me suspicious.

Concinnus male: (cannot possibly be mistaken for female:confused:)


Considering that males can choose to emit female pheromones and the amount of attempted copulation that goes on in my male communal tank it doesn't make me suspicious at all. Slithers will have a go at anything that moves and they all have tried to court each other at some point or other.
The picture you posted is a very clean example of a male but my Florida blue male does not have a 'tell-tale' bulge. Neither of the concinnus females I've owned has shown a definate taper either. When I first got Xena and Xerxes, the only way to tell them apart was body size and personal markings. Deciding which was male and female just by the tail would have been a hard task for anyone (although nowadays Xerxes' manhoods are a lot more obvious).

[ConcinusMan]

Well I keep hearing about all kinds of weird stuff that I wouldn't call typical of them, like "concinnus only get about 2.5 feet" and "they have small litters"... "they are cannibalistic" It's curious that most of the weird stuff I hear is coming from European owners who's snakes are many generations CB, and possibly even inbred or of a small gene pool. I mean, I keep hearing things that are the polar opposite of my observations keeping wild concinnus' or CB here in the states, and then people assume these things are typical of them when nothing could be further from the truth. I'll just have to go ahead and take your word for it but in 25 years I've never seen a male of any species court another male. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, I've just never seen it and so I must assume it's very uncommon. Strangely enough, I have seen on just two occasions, proven females act like males, chin rubbing and following other females.

I read a lot of things about parietalis, including the males imitating females thing. Since that subspecies is studied so much, I see a tendency for people to apply this to other garter snakes where it doesn't necessarily apply. I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just saying that there are a lot of things parietalis do that other garters do not do. I think that many of the things they do are an adaptation to the extreme cold winters where they live. It just doesn't get that cold in concinnus' range. You won't find them forming breeding balls and you won't see massive piles of them in the spring. The emerge later (when it's warmer) than ordinoides and disperse almost immediately.

I don't see a bulge in any of my male concinnus' either and when they are very young, the sexual dimorphism can be hard to spot in a few individuals but when they are adults 24 inches and up, the differences are obvious. Last summer, Redspot (Nate) probed a snake as male, that I kept. He swore it was male, I disagreed. That snake gave birth later.:cool:

Now don't take this wrong and assume that I don't believe these things are happening or that I feel that I'm absolutely right I'm just saying that these things people are telling me is news to me 'cause I've never seen it in many years of keeping many of them.

[drache]

I've got no particular experience with them, and my statements are limited to the few I've had in my care. for the most part they've not seemed significantly different from other T.sirtalis, but my parietalis male, for example, is tiny by comparison
this guy was gotten through trade for another male. since we're in Brooklyn, and there's not a lot of concinnus breeders around, I'm assuming he's most likely progeny of wc pair gotten at an expo
so no, I've got no clue what's normal for them. Maybe the Brooklyn air is affecting him
either way he's a lovely snake, and I'm totally fine with gender ambiguity

[ConcinusMan]

From what Shannon has told me, most CB concinnus' on the east coast are for the most part, originating from one or two breeders and she tells me that it's hard to get concinnus' on the east coast that aren't related or from the same small gene pool. I don't know how true it is, this is just what she told me. I can imagine that these snakes would be more likely to end up in Europe to, and then get inbred even further.

Anyway, it stands to reason that captive breeding for color over generations changes a snake in ways beyond coloration don't you think?

[drache]

Anyway, it stands to reason that captive breeding for color over generations changes a snake in ways beyond coloration don't you think?
I'd say that seems likely

[gregmonsta]

I would aggree with that too ;).
Back to the male's breeding behaviours. It's not just parietalis - I have so far seen male to male attempts from parietalis, radix, concinnus and sirtalis (I'm not the only one on this site either - including Americans with WC).
It's partially seasonal but - on several occaisions it has bee nothing other than one of them shedding to trigger multiple interest from others in the enclosure. It must be pheromones.
The male who receives the largest amount of attention when this happens is usually my Florida blue male who is the heaviest/girthier of the males. It seems to be much like with females. His larger supply of fat producing the lipids in the skin which is the attractant for males whether voluntary or not.
Other causes can be linked to my females, which are in the enclosure above, releasing generous amounts of lipids when they've been on a feeding binge or two. If one of the boys gets excited by this he simply seems to go for anything that moves (my parietalis/radix being most affected by this).

[ConcinusMan]

Maybe keeping the sexes apart, but in the same room, is the key factor. I've never done that. I have seen the after-shed attraction many times but it's always been male on female, once it was female on female.:p

[kibakiba]

Mama's courted Snakey after he shed... It was kind of funny watching her do that and Snakey trying to get away like "get off of me! you're crushing me!" Mama's too fat to be doing stuff like that to Snakey... She's 3-4 times his size. :D

[ConcinusMan]

Androgynous snakes. It's kind of humorous.:p Next thing you know, they'll be sneaking out at night to go club hopping.

[kibakiba]

Yeah.... Mama started doing it again... She is a strange little girl. After Snakey hid under the carefresh she laid there with her head under the carefresh. My mom thinks she thinks there's food hidden in there. I wouldnt be surprised. She's been very hungry and... "courty"

[ConcinusMan]

Started doing what again? sneaking out to go to the clubs? Coming home with lipstick prints on her neck and smelling like CK be?:p

[kibakiba]

Courting with Snakey. She's being weird. :P

[drache]

update on my concinnus male who has been getting all this attention from the other males: his rear end blew up, needed to be lanced and he is now on Baytril, recovering in a solo enclosure

and a little update on my favourite couple:
I think they look great, considering they haven't eaten since October
this year I experimented with leaving them in a tank in the sunporch, where they both brumated and are now warming up
I think they should be ready to eat something soon - he's looking just a tad peakish, and she looks like there's something cooking in there

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5302/5641705839_9e196f5e44_b.jpg

[drache]

and here some from the eastern front
big beast Sammy

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5184/5646137930_4122093a5f_b.jpg

little Topa

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5645572699_2ce669e4df_b.jpg

they"re roomies

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5021/5645582887_8c1d6dc160_b.jpg

and no, she doesn't glow like in that last photo for real - she just happens to be right underneath the basking lamp
her real colour is more like a warm brick, and the other photo is pretty close

[guidofatherof5]

Great looking photos and awesome snakes.

[RicMartin]

Great!

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Very Nice!

[drache]

okay - this is the fourth try

hey guys - I got new snakes, garters, radix, to be precise
and guess where they're from - the T. Radix Ranch in Iowa

I need to say that I've been crazy busy, and there's a story, and I'd like to tell you how stunning these guys are, because the photos don't do them the slightest bit of justice, but I've done this three times already, so I'm just going to post the photos, and put the story in another post next break I get

this is Erin
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2488/5706224137_3d864a85e4_z.jpg

and this is Guido
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3619/5706741040_b3e5fe94c6_z.jpg

[ScimitarX]

Great looking pair :)

[guidofatherof5]

I am very proud that they are living with you Rhea.
They will do well.;)

[ConcinusMan]

Here, I "fixed" them for you. (Color balance)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7099/57062241373d864a85e4z.jpg

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/5732/5706741040b3e5fe94c6z.jpg

[drache]

Here, I "fixed" them for you. (Color balance)
I wish you did, Richard
I tried to, also, but they're actually greenish with very deep orangey dorsals, and I keep washing out either one or the other
it's okay though
the pics still show that awesome black outline along the dorsal - I totally love that

[infernalis]

Very nice Rhea.. Congrats.

[ConcinusMan]

I tried to, also, but they're actually greenish with very deep orangey dorsals

We know Rhea, or rather anyone who has seen them in person knows. I have them too. My favorite "normal" radix (a female het albino) is the same way. A lovely olive green with striking golden stripes. Very beautiful.

You'll have much better luck capturing that color outdoors on a cloudy day or in the shade on a sunny day. Especially when the sun is nearly directly overhead. Artificial light, especially incandescent, even if you set the white balance properly to compensate, just doesn't do them justice.

Even after learning the "tricks" there are still some snakes that have color and beauty too subtle to capture on camera. I'm still having trouble capturing the contrast and beauty of my pastel checkered. I know the frustration.

My main goal when I "fixed" the pics was to make them not so yellow. A bit more balanced. I knew they could never be 100% right. That's why I said "fixed" in quotations.;)

[Mommy2many]

As Rhea has stated, those snakes have an awesome green coloring to their sides and head, with the orange stripe down the center. One is a little darker in color than the other. Both are feisty and super piggies. (from what I'm told):D

The Radix are truly very colorful snakes and live up to every compliment Steve has given them.

Good luck with Erin & Guido, Rhea!

[ConcinusMan]

I know. That's the same color mine used to be but not so much anymore. They change as they get older. I know that green you're talking about. It's hard to capture even under the best of conditions with the "best" camera.

[Mommy2many]

All I can say, again, is AWESOME!

[drache]

they've settled in nicely, but I have yet to get decent photos of them
this is the best I've managed, and it's only one of them - Guido
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6148/5965647624_f69a24a7f8_b.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

Is there certain reason a radix is named Guido? :D Awesome snake, congrats!

[guidofatherof5]

Gotta love those green heads.
Glad they are doing well for you.;)

[drache]

Is there certain reason a radix is named Guido? :D Awesome snake, congrats!
he came from Steve, but he looks more like a Guido

[RedSidedSPR]

But it is named for that? That's cool. I like that as a name anyway :D

[jitami]

He's gorgeous, Rhea!

[drache]

used the weekend to move the big girls into the 6'x2' enclosure that used to house Drache, my big king who died last fall
for some reason the most popular feature of this tank is the space between the right side sliding door and the substrate guard
hard to get a good pic because of the reflections, but it's still cute
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6167/6185084734_bc7778f960_b.jpg

[RedSidedSPR]

Looks... um.. comfy!

[guidofatherof5]

They do like places like that.
Good looking snakes Rhea.

[Mommy2many]

Looks like they like their new home!

[RedSidedSPR]

Oh yeah that too. Pretty assortment or snakes!!

[drache]

thanks
had to open the other side of the tank a little to fix something earlier
I thought Blubabe was just going to relax back down after I close the door, but ten minutes later . . .
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6152/6186207006_f4b9f0939e_b.jpg

[snakehill]

Gotta love those green heads.
Glad they are doing well for you.;) Getting my green head tomorrow!!!:D

[guidofatherof5]

Sweet.

[snakehill]

Did we just post at the same time???:confused:

[guidofatherof5]

My sweet was for Rhea's post.

I'll say sweet for your two snakes when they arrive safely on Tuesday.
I'm already worried and I haven't even sent them yet.:D

[snakehill]

My sweet was for Rhea's post.

I'll say sweet for your two snakes when they arrive safely on Tuesday.
I'm already worried and I haven't even sent them yet.:D I am worried too!!! I hope it's not too hot here!!!:(

[guidofatherof5]

They are to be in your hands before noon. I don't know where your nearest Fedex hub is.
I can have them left there for you to pick up if you would like?
Once again, I'm not sure where the pick up would take place.
Would you like me to check into it?
Let's continue this in PM's as not to de-rail Rhea's thread.