Quick Question on Live Feeding

[Topaz]

This might stir up some emotions in folks...it certainly does for me. I can understand how some snakes will ONLY eat live, and will starve themselves for over a year until they get something live. I also understand that some snakes need to be started on live until switched to f/t. What I don't understand is in a case where a snake, or lizard, or gecko, will happily eat a f/t pinkie/mouse/rat and the owner INSISTS on only feeding it live. I was just wonering what the point in that was? I've heard SO many arguments and just cannot see any logic in this. I've even heard many beeders say "I try not to feed f/t unless there's no other choice." Personally, I'd rather not risk the reptile's health and safety, and not be cruel to the prey item by forcing it to go through such a painful experience. I eat meat...but I don't eat a cow or pig while it's still alive :confused:

[crzy_kevo]

maybe its the fact that they prefer to feed it live because that is how the animal would eat its prey in the wild

[NetBSD]

i think its the newcomers that like live feedings because they think its neat, i feed live but thats because thats what my BP's eat right now, i havent tried pre killed yet but i plan on giving it a shot sometime next year. over on another board someone just took in a BP that was left overnight with a rat, if anyone wants to see why live feeding really gets to some people go here.


WARNING: it isnt for the weak

Rescue case suggestions - Constrictors Forums (http://constrictors.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22330)

it is a very good example of why live feeding isnt a good idea unless you are willing to sit there and watch very very VERY closly. this snake got lucky and survived, now we can just hope and pray it makes it thru the healing process

[crzy_kevo]

you have to join to see the pics could you possibly make a copy and post them

[Topaz]

maybe its the fact that they prefer to feed it live because that is how the animal would eat its prey in the wild

That's the number one reason I hear why people feed live. I just don't understand it. IT's not natural to breed snakes in a domestic setting, it's not natural to give it a domestic prey item. It's also not natural to give it reptile carpet, aspen shavings, or any other type of litter...definitely not natural to keep it in a tank or other enclosure that keeps it contained. And in the case of non-native species, it's not natural to have it in the country...so that excuse just flew out the window...

NetBSD - Most of the newer snake owners I've met were very open to the idea of f/t food when we told them the things a live rat/mouse can do to a snake. IT's the seasoned ones that swear by only feeding live that I don't understand.

To back my case, one of the more recent rescue rats I got in had killed an adult ball python just a few hours before I got her. I also saw an ad on craigslist one day where a person's corn snake was eaten alive by a mouse. In both of these cases, the owner watched the animals very carefully...it only takes a split second for a rodent to severely injure a snake.

The two ball pythons we have were only ever fed live until we got them. They were both malnourished, but that's because the owner fed the older one one fuzzie mouse once a month and the other had never eaten...They took f/t food after we had them only a week, without any hesitation whatsoever. Maybe we got lucky, do have had problem feeders before (i.e. our hognose. He won't eat at all. Our next step is to try a live pinkie to see if that will get him interested in eating, then we'll try f/t again, braining a f/t didn't even work with him.)

My fiance' thinks that people who prefer live over frozen has to deal with the owner's own insecurities, so they feel power by taking a living animal and pinning it against another living animal...and after some arguments I've had with people, I'm beginning to think he's right.

[adamanteus]

If a snake will take frozen/thawed prey, I can't see the point in using live..... all the usual reasons, also it's so much less convenient.

[NetBSD]

you have to join to see the pics could you possibly make a copy and post them



sure but again, WARNING, it isnt nice



So I recently took on a rescue case. It's a female ball about 8ish months old. Her previous owner left a rat in with her overnight and said rat chewed her spine in 4 different spots. Currently I'm treating her with betadine and antibiotic cream to keep out infection along with keeping her on paper towel. She does not appear to have nerve damage. Just wonder if there was anything else I could do to help her out?

Sorry for crappy pictures, only had access to a camera phone.

http://imnotmark.zapto.org:3030/Pics/Constrictors-dot-com/12-15-08_1610-800.jpg
http://imnotmark.zapto.org:3030/Pics/Constrictors-dot-com/12-15-08_1614-800.jpg



i also resized the pics to take some of the load off my home server where the pics are stored, you get the idea

[adamanteus]

I guess that illustrates the point clearly enough! But to be honest, I think most people who do use live prey would be smart enough to remove it if it's not taken quite quickly.
I still don't see the point though, unless it's necessary.

[Stefan-A]

But to be honest, I think most people who do use live prey would be smart enough to remove it if it's not taken quite quickly.
I'm not convinced most of them are smart enough to do that, I think most of them are just lucky.

[crzy_kevo]

that just makes me sick how could some1 let that happen i hope they never get another snake or pet for that matter

[adamanteus]

I've seen similar graphic pictures of a large Reticulate Python that had most of it's face chewed away by a rat that was left in with it overnight.
It's weird that the snakes don't retaliate.... hungry or not, that's got to hurt!

[crzy_kevo]

i was thinking the same thing james

[NetBSD]

i dunno why the snakes dont defend themselves, i have only seen this in BP's myself and maybe its because of how laid back they are? all i know if that when i feed live im right over the tank with the tongs holding the rats head away from the snake when it coils around. cant wait till i get some frozen rats to try and convert my BP's over

[crzy_kevo]

you could try breeding them

[adamanteus]

No criticism intended on you, Mark.... merely an observation that some snake seem to lie back and allow themselves to become supper!
I know sometimes feeding live can be the only option.

[infernalis]

When I first got my Pueblan Milk, the lady at the store told me he only ate live, so thats what I fed him.

About two months after getting him, He grabbed his mouse wrong, and the mouse bit him in the side.

Oreo went off feed for two and a half months, refused to eat anything.

When I finally got him to eat, I would pre-kill the mouse first, and that seemed to work out, Then when I ordered my first big box of frozen rodent, I got 200 frozen mice adults, Twice a week I put 2 thawed mice in there and by morning they are always gone.

Carmella my Eastern milk, she was covered in bite scars from the wild, and she instantly took to frozen.

F/T is the only way to go period:cool:

Even the BP likes them, however they need to be warmed up and shook in front of him to get his attention:D

[Topaz]

Even the BP likes them, however they need to be warmed up and shook in front of him to get his attention:D

Our larger BP will only eat if you leave the rat on newspaper in is enclosure. The other BP will only eat if you wiggle the mouse as if it were alive (she'll only take it if you make it look like it's on all fours and doing the jerky motions that mice do.) She won't strike at it any other way.

I have to say it's very refreshing to find a reptile forum that's not bashing for feeding f/t. I've even been CUSSED at for it, and have been told I did not do my research on the animals and I don't take care of them right. :rolleyes:

[infernalis]

Those people are out of their minds, I wouldn't waste my time with them.

[reptile3]

wow, I did live for a month,then switched to f/t. George did strike & constrict the live prey! and then when I put his f/t on his hide, he is more than happier to look around, smell & go to town!

i am all for f/t!! it's easier, & I won't have to worry about a rat biting my snake!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I eat meat...but I don't eat a cow or pig while it's still alive :confused:

But neither do they. And sadly, the cow or pig that you do eat was most likely given a far more gruesome death than the one that a prey item is given by a predator. many people ignore or overlook when this fact, but it's true. Many slaughterhouses slit an animals throat and begin dismembering it while it is still alive. Yes that paints a horrible image in one's mind, but it happens to hundreds of thousands of animals daily. And don't even get me started on the animals bred for the fur trade and skinned alive for their fur. We, as humans, are the monsters. Predators, on the other hand, are designed to kill quickly and efficiently. When a snake hits a rodent and constricts it, it is squeezing so tightly that all bloodflow and breath stops completely. This means that within seconds, the tiny animal becomes unconcious and is no longer physically aware of what is happening. Sure, it's probably terrifying for a split second, but it's nature and it's far more natural than what we do to the slaughtered cows and pigs we eat.

There is nothing cruel or inhumane about predation or the observation of it in captivity... the snakes give a better, harder, faster more attentioned feeding response meaning they obviously prefer that to f/t, and the fact is that even though it is not natural for us to keep them, breed them... etc...we still try to re create what they would be used to as much as possible... and well, eating live prey is one of those things.

It's hard to swallow, but some people just like watching a predator do what it's made to do. There is a family that regularly comes into my store. They have a daughter and a son between 4 and 5. They have a ball python in a 100 gallon tank. They are wonderful, very nice people, I had the "have you tried f/t" talk with them, but they kindly told me that they opt for live because feeding time is like a family event and they enoy watching the snake hunt down the mouse in the tank and they watch the whole thing, the kill, the swallow, etc. They do not get some sort of sadistic enjoyment from it, they just are fascinated by how specialized and efficient snakes are at dispatching their prey. In my opinion... that does not make them weird, or evil, or bloodthristy, just curious and observant. People that are so squeamish about things eating other things, are usually ones that have already alienated themselves from the natural world, at least enough to say "OMG, it eats CRICKETS??? that is HORRIBLE AND CRUEL!!!" (i always just smile politely at those people and tell them that they are crunchy, they should try one.... and then shake my head later)


As for ME, I feed 99% frozen thawed. If someone brings me some live feeders, or if I happen to find them cheap at a show, then yes I do feed live, or especially when I have someone over who has never witnessed a snake eat, it's a very good way to educate people about that aspect of a snake's life. Unless I am sure there's not going to be any problems... I flick the back if the rodent's head prior to feeding to knock them out. I have not yet had a snake injured by prey. I am not sure how anyone could be as neglecting as the photo's of that poor snake chewed to bits. If the snake is picky and it HAS to be alive and alert.... I hold the rodent by the scruff with my tongs and present it head first.

I see nothing wrong with it, I see nothing wrong with the people who choose to feed live PROVIDED they supervise the feedings closely or whack the rodent first. There are always going to be idiots and sadists. But that does not mean that we can point fingers at the respectful people in the hobby who know what they are doing and how to do it. And what about the people who have a few hundred snakes and breed their own food? I know if I did it that way and had that many snakes... that I would not have time to kill, freeze, and then thaw all the rodents necessary. Sure, kill and freeze the excess and sell them or save them for a time when the colonies are thin, but there is no point in taking unecessary steps between snake and prey and you have that large of a collection.

[reptile3]

"OMG, it eats CRICKETS??? that is HORRIBLE AND CRUEL!!!" (i always just smile politely at those people and tell them that they are crunchy, they should try one.... and then shake my head later)


i hear that too but with rats! say how can you have a snake that eats rats.
well they have to eat too! worms to snakes,the leo's & beardie.

they do sell crickets to eat... & lolli pops with crickets inside!! YUMMY!!
(never had one) ha ha

[crzy_kevo]

very well put Shannon i personally would have no problem feeding live to my garters as i have put in live frogs with the snakes and watched them hunt (it was rather amazing how fast their reflexes are as they snatched a frog out of the air as it tried to jump away) , however i will be feeding my snakes F/T pinks because i have heard it can be difficult to get a snake back on to f/t when fed live so i would rather just take away the hassle

[infernalis]

Shannon, I know an engineer who helped design the clutch assembly for a machine that drops a very heavy blade assembly down on live cows to quarter them in one swift motion:eek:

It's over in a split second.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

very well put Shannon i personally would have no problem feeding live to my garters as i have put in live frogs with the snakes and watched them hunt (it was rather amazing how fast their reflexes are as they snatched a frog out of the air as it tried to jump away) , however i will be feeding my snakes F/T pinks because i have heard it can be difficult to get a snake back on to f/t when fed live so i would rather just take away the hassle

it's true that some species of snake are prone to becoming addicted to live... not so much garters.... but ball pythons are one of them. Once my balls are consistently eating f/t... they NEVER see another live.. because all it takes is one and the BP may decide it likes those better.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon, I know an engineer who helped design the clutch assembly for a machine that drops a very heavy blade assembly down on live cows to quarter them in one swift motion:eek:

It's over in a split second.


Unfortunately... that's not all slaughterhouses... just some. Some also use the air gun where a metal rod is fired straight into the animal's braincase... there is no more instantaneous death... but unfortunately... it's not the death many of our food animals meet. Ever seen what turkeys and chickens go through? The birds that are too sick or weak to make it to their destination are simply kicked along and thrown. a machine that dangles them by their feet and slides their heads through a thing that slits their throat one after the other, and then they dangle there until the blood has drained... flapping their wings the entire time. I have seen that one myself... it's a wonder they don't just decapitate... but they don't and It puzzles me to no end.

I also beleive that for kosher meats, for beef to be kosher the throat must be slit and the cow must be concious the entire time, and the blood must me allowed to run out of the animal.

Sadly... to add insult to injury... most of these animals are well aware of what is coming to them as their keepers usually kick them, shock them, beat them or drag them to their slaughter area. In some slaughterhouses... the animals before the one being slaughtered can see the other being killed. The smell of blood, the stench of death, knowing that you are about to be slaughtered and having no control, that must be horrible. Prey items for snakes do not face this type of ordeal.

What I am getting at here (i am not trying to go off topic) is that the methods that are used to control and kill our own food is for the MOST part, extremely cruel compared to when a snake eats a mouse, and I just hate seeing people accuse a person like me of being inhumane for feeding my snake what it eats and then going home and eating a steak, not stopping to think of where it came from or how it died. I am not pointing fingers, I just feel very strongly on this topic and deal with it almost daily. My opinions of live feeding will never change and nor will my opinion that we as human beings are monsters and hippocrites. The majority of the time, I am ashamed to be a member of the same species as so many mindless idiotic sheep roaming our planet!

[Topaz]

I guess it just bothers me when people see that as entertainment. Sure, I think it's educational and great, but I just don't see the whole "natural" argument when a snake is in a glass box, with a UTH, eating a domestic rat/mouse. Not to mention the majority of the people I see/have met that do use live food are incredibly rude to me when I ask about the f/t thing. One person who feed live guinea pigs to their burmese even said once "I use g. pigs because their scream sounds more like a child." Another guy I knew (thankfully, he lives hundreds of miles away now, and his snake was taken from him,) used to get "free to good home" kittens and puppies because he "loved the show."

I agree that the humans are the monsters. But I think if people are to keep snakes, and any animal for that matter, in captivity, then they should be treated as captive animals. But, this is just my opinion...once upon a time I used to believe that snakes and birds were two animals that never should be in captivity...I"m still learning.

And a side note about people with lots of snakes, many of the ones I have talked to actually do euth. the animals before feeding, but don't freeze them. CO2 chambers can be made to euth. a large amount. So not everyone with large amounts of snakes feed live.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I guess it just bothers me when people see that as entertainment. Sure, I think it's educational and great, but I just don't see the whole "natural" argument when a snake is in a glass box, with a UTH, eating a domestic rat/mouse. Not to mention the majority of the people I see/have met that do use live food are incredibly rude to me when I ask about the f/t thing. One person who feed live guinea pigs to their burmese even said once "I use g. pigs because their scream sounds more like a child." Another guy I knew (thankfully, he lives hundreds of miles away now, and his snake was taken from him,) used to get "free to good home" kittens and puppies because he "loved the show."

I agree that the humans are the monsters. But I think if people are to keep snakes, and any animal for that matter, in captivity, then they should be treated as captive animals. But, this is just my opinion...once upon a time I used to believe that snakes and birds were two animals that never should be in captivity...I"m still learning.

And a side note about people with lots of snakes, many of the ones I have talked to actually do euth. the animals before feeding, but don't freeze them. CO2 chambers can be made to euth. a large amount. So not everyone with large amounts of snakes feed live.


I did not imply that every one with large collections feeds live, merely that many do and that there's nothing wrong with it, that they are not any less of a person that then one who takes the time to euth them first. Like I said... you can't group the "sick fantasy" people in with the "my snake is hungry" people.

Snakes are captive yes, and are obviously treated as such, seeing as they are not free to roam as they please. But, they are not domestic, hence their special requirements... sure, teh glass box is not natural... BUT...the heat, the substrate, the lighting, the hiding places... we do those things because it replicates what IS natural because that is the only way our reptile will feel completely comfortable...and I don't see why food has to be any different. Your dog is more than happy to curl up on the sofa with you sqeak a rubber toy and eat cooked processed kibble...which is incredibly NOT what a dog is supposed to eat... which they have unfortunately adapted to eating. Your dog does not need you to provide for him a small forest and a den to be happy. He is domesticated and there is different treatment for animals that are domestic, and captive. Captive animals ranging from wild dogs to snakes to insects often have to be convinced to try an already dead animal in the first place. Just because they will adapt to it does not mean it's best for them and their prey. Snakes, for the most part, only accept f/t prey because they have figured out that it's that or nothing. Much like a bearded dragon made to eat pellets would still MUCH rather have real vegetables and fruits. Domestication does nothing but weaken and distort the genetics until you get a totally inferior animal to it's wild counterpart... so why try to do it with reptiles? F/t is only the beginning of alienating snakes from their wild conterparts..... but I suppose I can deal with it. BUT, Let's put it this way.... the day they start trying to commercialize snake food (and its already on the way with disgusting snake sausages), I am OUT!! people try to personify their animals and try to reason that further separation from their instinct is what's best... but is it really... or is that just what's best in OUR interests and need to feel like we are doing some good and right?

Is death by Carbon Dioxide in a dark box REALLY a better, more relaxing, happier death? Who are we to really decide... none of us have ever died to feel it. In both euthanasia AND death by snake.... the victim is still going unconcious and suffocating. Death by snake is quicker than the other, that's for sure. It takes a few minutes for an animal to die from co2... They lay there and gasp and gasp yet there is no relief and they have to miserably sit and wait for it to end... it takes under a minute for an animal to go unconcious and die when being wrapped by a snake thanks to the complete stopping of bloodflow. I would take that death any day.

I hope that made sense to someone else besides me.

[infernalis]

The majority of the time, I am ashamed to be a member of the same species as so many mindless idiotic sheep roaming our planet!

I wholeheartedly agree.

I just am lucky to have critters that like F/T and a good deal with the pet store.

Any time I can trade live for TRIPLE the amount in frozen, That's a bargain.

[crzy_kevo]

one hell of a bargain

[Elliot]

Shannon, I have to say that you make excellent points and do a great job supporting them. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I wholeheartedly agree.

I just am lucky to have critters that like F/T and a good deal with the pet store.

Any time I can trade live for TRIPLE the amount in frozen, That's a bargain.


I would do the EXACT same in your situation. The more you can get for less the better!!!

And if it were the opposite and I could get 3 live for every f/t, you would bet I would not blink an eye.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon, I have to say that you make excellent points and do a great job supporting them. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

thank you, I really hope that everyone will take the time to look at those posts on the previous pages... I put a lot of thought into them and they come from the heart. I have never had the chance to voice all of this.

[jitami]

thank you, I really hope that everyone will take the time to look at those posts on the previous pages... I put a lot of thought into them and they come from the heart. I have never had the chance to voice all of this.

I truly appreciate you taking the time to voice your opinions Shannon. When I see a thread has you as the last poster it almost always gets read first. Your posts are typically either very educational or have simply stunning photographs in them :) No pressure ;) Thank you for taking the time to type it all out....sometimes again and again.... sum uf uth r slowar dan udders :D

[infernalis]

Hey Shannon, what Elliot said!

Oh and Tami too.