Force Feeding vs Assist Feeding

[GartersRock]

Posting the new thread that was moving off topic. ;)

I have heard so many bad things about force feeding. And have resorted to it myself when the snake was SO far gone. But I won't again. They all died. Now it is my strong opinion that if the snake is so far gone that force feeding would be required. It will probably kill the snake.

Assist feeding on the other hand. No harm done and usually works all things considered. ;)

Can we make this the official assist/force feeding thread? That would be cool.

[Zephyr]

I've noticed that force feeding adult/juvenile snakes usually ends badly.
All the babies I've force fed started eating days after it.

Maybe it's because it's hard to find good equipment to get the food a decent distant into the adult/juvenile snake?

[GartersRock]

How long do you wait before you force feed your babies Kyle? Have you ever had fatalities in FF babies?

[Zephyr]

How long do you wait before you force feed your babies Kyle? Have you ever had fatalities in FF babies?If it's been more than 2 weeks, I force feed. And the snake also has to look a little on the skinny side as well; I have healthy babies who will skip a week here or there.
I have never had a fatality from FF bebs.

[snakeman]

I have a pinky pump for babies that don't eat.I chop up a bunch of pinks.lube the end of the syringe with mineral oil.Pump the contents in.It's how I got my blacknecks going when I had them.I used it on santa cruz garter also.

[Loren]

I agree totally with you Amanda.

I have never had good results from force feeding. 2 reasons I think- 1- its already pretty darn sick by that time, and 2- I think actual force feeding is very hard on snakes. I personally dont do it anymore either.

As for assist feeding,I have had good results with a few snakes.

To clarify, in case anyone is wondering, assist feeding (how I interpret the words anyhow :) ) would be holding the snake, getting the snake to open its mouth, and getting the food item into its mouth(which might take minor force), but then sitting real still and letting the snake hopefully decide to start swallowing on its own.
Force feeding(again, this is how I would define it) would be gently but firmly keeping pressure on the food item towards the throat through the entire swallowing process, with the snake pretty much not offering you any help in getting it down their throat.


I dont have much experience with baby garters, as to how long I would wait to resort to it. I know they likely wouldnt last nearly as long as a kingsnake. I hatched 11 baby cal kings a couple years ago and let them all start eating on their own-some ate within a few weeks, the last couple to eat ate their very first meal at about 3 months old. (No, they werent brumated). They turned out fine.
I suppose if it was a baby garter I would be getting pretty serious about getting it to eat within the first few weeks, since they are so small and dont seem to have the reserves that many other babies do, and seem to have faster metabolisms as well.

[Zephyr]

By force feeding for babies, I don't mean I use tweezers down their throats. XD
I use syringes meant for baby parakeets and I usually inject egg white.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I havn't force fed in years.....snake is already stressed out by the time it needs it.... assist feeding works better, less stress on the snake

[Loren]

By force feeding for babies, I don't mean I use tweezers down their throats. XD
I use syringes meant for baby parakeets and I usually inject egg white.
cool way to do it. I say if it works and they do well, aint nothing wrong with it.

[ssssnakeluvr]

tube feeding is a little less stressful...better in my opinion. I used to have a specialized syringe that had a long curved tube on the end, was great for feeding babies!

[Zephyr]

Yep, I'd say it's very reliable for babies. I had an eastern baby who decided to quit eating (Never happened last year, odd huh?) So I injected egg white into him/her the other week. This week, he/she took two pieces of worms and a mouse leg from tweezers.

[GartersRock]

Cool Loren! ;)

I still stand by what I said Kyle. But if it works for you! I don't see why not... ;) I for one... Would see it as far to risky to force feed at 2 weeks. Would scare the heck out of me after having bad results with it. Lol! I also would say that 2 weeks is a little soon. I would wait at least 3 or even longer unless they are looking really bad. I have had ribbon babies not eat until the 3rd or 4th week when they become ravenous!

On another note!
When most people assist feed they slowly place the snake back in the cage and hold very still. Some VERY reluctant snakes may not even accept the slow movement to get them back in the cage and to get your hands back out! Most would resort to force feeding if this doesn't work. Well there is an option #3. ;)

What I have found for esp nervous snakes to work very well, is to place the item in the mouth and then freeze. With the snake still in your hands making no movement. As soon as it is well on it's way down, THEN place the snake back in the cage. Had a lot of success with that with snakes that would not assist feed being placed back into the cage. :D

[Zephyr]

Well, with babies I can't really tell if they're on the road to failing (AKA death, lol) or if they're just being stubborn.
I have one of my 07' adults who didn't eat for a month in summer heat. Then she decided to eat again and gained a little weight and size. Now she's off feed again, but I'm not worried seeing as she's done this before. Dunno why.

[GartersRock]

Yeah. Guess you just have to go with your gut feeling. *shrugs*

Good luck with your 07' girl. I hate that. Arg!

[Loren]

What I have found for esp nervous snakes to work very well, is to place the item in the mouth and then freeze. With the snake still in your hands making no movement. As soon as it is well on it's way down, THEN place the snake back in the cage. Had a lot of success with that with snakes that would not assist feed being placed back into the cage. :D

Exactly what I do. You have to hold perfectly still- BUT, have you ever noticed that there is always a fly landing on your face right about that time, or a bad itch somewhere, or something like that?

[GartersRock]

You do! That's awesome! I have talked to so many people and everyone places them back into the cage! lol!
Go Loren!! ;)

And yes. It's amazing how you notice how often you get little itches, bad itches, bothersome flies, or whatever when you are trying to hold perfectly still. LOL

[Zephyr]

Exactly what I do. You have to hold perfectly still- BUT, have you ever noticed that there is always a fly landing on your face right about that time, or a bad itch somewhere, or something like that?Always.
It's never easy.
Or they'll be swallowing it, something else will move in the room, and they'll spit it out. lol

[ssssnakeluvr]

or one of your kids assisting you will walk up an ask what you are doing.......:o

[GartersRock]

My dogs are horribly guilty of this. :D Both the greyhound and the canaan dog will be perfectly still. Asleep on my bed. I forget they are there. Sit down to assist feed a snake. Wham! The dogs are so freaked out and worried about me being so still. They jump up and ask what's wrong. There goes the food item.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have resorted to force feeding a few times, mainly for babies to get eating and for hunger-strike-snakes gone wrong to get back on their (no)feet!

I only ever lost one baby snake that was force fed... and no juveniles. I have only had to force one adult, and other than that one baby, my expierience was that it actually turned out for the better. and I always attempt to assist feed before resorting to force feeding. Maybe it's because I am very quick wih it and the faster you get it done and over with and quickly get the snake back into it's environment, it's not as likely to TOTALLY freak out at that point. There is always a point where the snake you are working with is upset, and another point where the snake is totally panic stricken and borderline heart attack material. The trick is to get it over with BEFORE they reach panic stricken "i am being killed" stage.

[brain]

So, just as a general rule here. How long would or could one let a young garter go with out food. I don’t yet have any (but hopefully this springJ) at this point.

I have teased, forced and waited out Corns and Kings with no ill after effects. And I have waited out my neo-nate rosy for as long as four weeks. And that was a tense month rosy being smaller thane the earlier.

Now to wait out a neo garter … hum could be rough on my nerves.

I’m here to learn before I jump in. What have I learned;

feed on salmon, tilapia, and pinks
Silver Sulfadiazine is your friend
I can keep same sex species together
brumation down to 50 degrees for three months
Lighting ???? haven’t learned that yet. I guess it will be the same as the rest of my room where I don’t use any because there ample natural lighting.
temperature ?? again under tank pad and maintain the room temp at 89 degrees should be good. Monitor snake individual temp with Rayteck adjust accordingly.
substrate any thing other than cedar or pine (which I don’t use anyway) stay with the aspen and wood pellets.

Anything anyone else would suggest but be appreciated

Michael

[mtolypetsupply]

I was so nervous, shaking and stuff. I was sad about Caramel passing away, and know we needed to get some food in these non-feeders, but dreaded "making" them eat.

Well, it was a success! We didn't get much into them, just a half pinky head each, but they swallowed on their own, and we didn't have to do more than put it far enough in their mouths. The one baby is only weighing in a 4 sad little grams, so I think something is better than nothing, right?

Anyway, I'm very happy, and though I shook like a leaf on the first feed, after that went well, I was a steady-handed PRO (well, it would have looked like it if you didn't know better) on the second one. And I have to say, my hubby was a Rock, being the Head-Holder-mouth-opener guy.

I'll try and get some pics of the cute little babies sometime soon.

[olive oil]

That is great news!

[jitami]

Stephi, somehow I missed why you needed to force or assist feed, but I'm so glad all went well! :)

[mtolypetsupply]

Stephi, somehow I missed why you needed to force or assist feed, but I'm so glad all went well! :)

Well, I'll start from the beginning then. I myself have ADD(isn't there a thread with strains of ADD/ADHD through it now? :) ), so I don't know what I've posted, and don't have the patience to look through all my old posts.:o

At the Hamburg show, we got 6 non-feeding corn snakes from an exhibitor there. Don't get me wrong, he was totally honest about them being non-feeders, and only sold them to me for $20 for all 6. Well, we got them home, and 3 ate on their own. Yipee!!!:D

Sadly, 3 didn't. One, that we thought would be fine, passed away yesterday. We did figure he'd last at least a week without force feeding him. Poor little caramel!!!!! So, we decided to go the assist-feed route. After some great feedback from some people I PM'ed, Gary and I tried opening their mouths with a playing card (tip from Steve, guidofatherof5) and putting half a pinky head in their mouth with hemostats, then holding *really* still (tip from Shannnon, who also got non-feeders of the same batch and had success, check her photo thread). Ghostie and Norm both took matters into their own hands, or throats, and finished swallowing without protest.

I have to say, I think it was more traumatic to me than to them. And now that it's worked, I'm much more confident. Thank you all who gave me great encouragement and feedback, and be ready: I don't know if I won't be pestering you all again with more PM questions!!!!!!

I'm so glad this board is full of kind, patient, non-judgemental people. Not that I see myself as the "assist feed queen" now, but it sure isn't rocket science, and I see on other forums how people with no experience doing something get flamed for trying and posting for help. I know without you all, I wouldn't have the resources to have helped these little guys, and I know we're not out of the woods yet, but thank you all for being who you are.

Have a great night, everyone! I know I'm on cloud nine with the way tonight went.:D

[jitami]

Thanks for the recap Stephi. Sorry to hear about caramel. Sounds like the remaining 5 are in great hands, though! Nice job!!!

[mtolypetsupply]

Thanks! we did another assist feed today. The ghost and the normal did fine. And are snuggled down in their substrate. I was cautioned against doing it too soon, possible regurge, but we held them up to the light, and the poor things, you can really and truly see through them both. Especially the ghost, but even Norm. They were empty, so we figured we'd go for it.

It's pretty weird, as soon as there's food in their mouths, they work it down on their own. But it doesn't dawn on them to take it upon themselves to get the food in their mouths. Then again, some of them have to be shown the water bowl daily, or I think they'd turn to dust. Silly snakes, I hope they grow out of this!

Shannon's garters are so much better than these silly corns. ;) Smart little piggies eat on their own, drink on their own, and are just *gorgeous*!!!!!!

[Scaley.Jade]

only ever force fed corn snakes but to no detrimental effect it is much nicer assisting though i have a 6 month old corn who has been force fed for 4 months and we are now assisting she will occasionally take food on her own if we leave it in with her.

[drache]

just got to this thread
congrats on your success
sorry you lost Caramel

btw
those plastic stays they put into the collars of men's shirts make fantastic little snake mouth openers - and are easily cleaned

[infernalis]

So, just as a general rule here. How long would or could one let a young garter go with out food. I don’t yet have any (but hopefully this springJ) at this point.

Now to wait out a neo garter … hum could be rough on my nerves.







I’m here to learn before I jump in. What have I learned;

feed on salmon, tilapia, and pinks
Silver Sulfadiazine is your friend
I can keep same sex species together
brumation down to 50 degrees for three months
Lighting ???? haven’t learned that yet. I guess it will be the same as the rest of my room where I don’t use any because there ample natural lighting.
temperature ?? again under tank pad and maintain the room temp at 89 degrees should be good. Monitor snake individual temp with Rayteck adjust accordingly.
substrate any thing other than cedar or pine (which I don’t use anyway) stay with the aspen and wood pellets.
Anything anyone else would suggest but be appreciated

Michael


I’m here to learn before I jump in.

Very respectable to hear that statement!:D

For your feeding question, I have seen some neonate garters perish within a month of not feeding, and have seen several pull out of it and do fine later. Much depends on how much weight the snake has lost, when they get to the stage of "skin and bones" (emaciated) it is much more difficult to recover from.

Michael, Here is a link to a statement I just made to Stephanie regarding brumation.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/4691-winter-blues-3.html#post93340

The diet can also include night crawlers, (lots of protein, and no fat in Night Crawlers.)

I keep my reptile room at a steady 80 degrees, the GARTERS have (for the most part) largely ignored auxiliary heat. (many mixed opinions on that)

For substrate, some folks like "carefresh" (I find it rather expensive with so many tanks) "Repti bark" and "Eco Earth" work well if kept humid.

Live guppies in the water bowl will often stimulate feeding in stubborn snakes, Rosie reds and Goldfish are a big no no due to thiaminaise that blocks thiamin absorption in the snakes system.

I'm sure I may have missed something;)

[mtolypetsupply]

just got to this thread
congrats on your success
sorry you lost Caramel

btw
those plastic stays they put into the collars of men's shirts make fantastic little snake mouth openers - and are easily cleaned

good idea! Unfortunately, hubby has no shirts like that, not needed in the world of heavy construction! LOL

[drache]

temperature ?? again under tank pad and maintain the room temp at 89 degrees should be good. Monitor snake individual temp with Rayteck adjust accordingly.

I'd say that's a bit warm for ambient temp

[infernalis]

[/list]I'd say that's a bit warm for ambient temp


I have to agree, Garter snakes prefer it just a tad cooler, On hot days they will seek shade and sometimes even go down gopher holes to escape the heat.


Our rep room is kept at 80 (heck the whole house usually is)

[Loren]

Our rep room is kept at 80 (heck the whole house usually is)

mine too. Average.

I keep it above 72 night, and 80-84 day. Seems to work well.

Some of the garters have flexwatt for a belly heat spot of 90 or so, others have ambient only. they all seem to do fine.

[brain]

Michael, Here is a link to a statement I just made to Stephanie regarding brumation.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/garter-snake-lounge/4691-winter-blues-3.html#post93340

;)


TY I'll look into

[mtolypetsupply]

mine too. Average.

I keep it above 72 night, and 80-84 day. Seems to work well.

Some of the garters have flexwatt for a belly heat spot of 90 or so, others have ambient only. they all seem to do fine.


Ok, what exactly is this flexwatt I've heard about? is it reptile specific or that stuff you use to keep pipes from freezing, etc.?

[infernalis]

Its an under tank heat strip that you can cut to custom sizes for any enclosure.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Flexwatt is a material made for all types of heating purposes... actually i beleive it's made not with reptiles in mind... but heating pipes or something like that. It looks like a really thick piece of laminate with thin metal strips and black strips all inside of it.... It comes in different widths also. the nice thing about it is that it comes in rolls but can be cut at every foot mark to be made into any desirable length and that entire length will be fully functional. And if you cut that in half... it would still work! (the end with the wires attatched of course)

[Snake lover 3-25]

my room is 68 at night and 72-74 day:D

[brain]

[/list]I'd say that's a bit warm for ambient temp

You may have a point. Keeping the ambient temp high. I have noted with this room temp my boas enjoy a body temp of around 78 degrees. Do you feel this a bit too high for garters?

[Snake lover 3-25]

just a bit i think..... maybe a few degrees lower.....

[brain]

OK noted TY

[mtolypetsupply]

Well, I assist fed my corns again today. I've been trying the "put it in their mouth and freeze" method, but it seems that they freeze too. The ghost one seems to "chew" on it but doesn't really work it down. The normal one just froze.

So I was watching an animal planet rerun last night where they delivered puppies by c-section, and they had to stimulate them to breathe. And I was thinking about when you give a mammal a pill and rub their throat to get them to swallow. So I made a leap and tried something with my snakies.

I started rubbing under their jaw in the direction of a swallow, and moving them from hand to hand as if they were slithering along. The ghost got the idea, and swallowed, and so did Norma!!!! Once they got their mouths closed, they froze again. So I tried to stimulate them to move, so they'd move the prey down, and lo and behold, it worked. The whole process took longer with Norma than ghost, but it worked.

I decided to try this because it seems as if they have no idea what to do with food once it is in their mouths. Instinct doesn't kick in. Maybe they just needed to be shown. At at 9" and 3 grams, I feel so badly for the poor normal, and the ghost is 11" and 5 grams. Something needed to be done for them.

Now they both have a nice little lump, and are resting comfortably. I'm going to try again in a few days, and try the massage again if they haven't caught on to the process.

Has anyone else tried a more active assist feed? What did you do? How did it work out?

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow never thought of that!!! great idea!!!:)

[adamanteus]

Great work, Stephi! Congratulations.:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I am still assist feeding both of my non feeders.... the diffused motley ultramel actually stalks the pinky and acts like shes gonna GET IT... but then she just doesnt! I have been assist feeding pinky heads, and once I get it into her mouth she even chews on it now! Neither will swallow it on their own unless I push it just into their throat, then they push it down all on their own and act as if they just ate a meal all by theirself!!!

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol silly little guys!!!:D but i bet you love them just as much!!!!!:eek:

[SaytaSora]

I came across this when I was trying to figure out how to get my baby garter to eat... It's the only one out of the entire clutch that still hasn't eaten and looks rather small compared to the others and doesn't have the energy the others have. I would like to try assist feeding, but how in the world do I open the little guy's mouth?? I can't figure it out lol

[guidofatherof5]

When I did force feedings I used a credit card to get the mouth open then used a smooth toothpick end to gently push the worm piece down the throat.
I don't assist feed any snakes especially neonates. I believe there is more going on with the snake then just not eating. My success with force feeding was 0%. The snake may have started eating on its own but within months died quickly for no known reason.
I bow to nature and understand not every snake in a litter is meant to live. I used to struggle with the death of these young snakes, thinking I had done something wrong or wasn't providing what was needed.
"The strong shall survive" and "Nature does know best" in most situations.
I still feel bad when I lose these little ones but have a much clearer understanding of why.

[d_virginiana]

The snake may have started eating on its own but within months died quickly for no known reason.


Just had that happen with the baby blackneck I had to forcefeed. He did fine for awhile, then just nosedived. Based on the way he was drinking the last few days my guess is kidney failure, so something completely unrelated to eating. The sickly one that started eating on his own is still doing great though.

Also noticed the one that died never really grew like you'd expect, even when he was eating. At nearly a year, he was about a tenth the size of his healthy sister and a third the size of his brother that was almost a ftt.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

I have been keeping and breeding snakes for over 20 years now. I volunteered at several reptile exhibits and a pet store growing up. I have lots of friends in the reptile hobby and have worked with almost every reptile and amphibian available in the trade. I have had to force, assist, and tube feed snakes for many years and have had great success with all 3. At the exhibit we would start out by trying assist feeding which was the easiest on us and the snake, but if that didn't work we would go to a general force feed. Now some snakes get very stressed out and actually try to reject the force feed so if they struggle and reject the food the end result was tube feeding. Our tube feeding was different for every snake depending on species. Some got pinkies with a pinky pump, some got raw egg mixed with vitamins and some even got a mixture with chicken baby food and vitamins. When force feeding baby venomous snake we used a table and a thick sponge, some forceps, and a ballpoint probe or a restraint tube with a pinky pump or feeding tube. I will say this from my experiences with baby garters 95% of baby garters that won't take food on their own (I mean when you have tried all food sources for garters) are failure to thrive and have something going on on the inside of them and probably won't make it anyway. I never give up and assist feed any that won't eat cause it makes me feel better knowing that I tried all I could do, but in a lot of cases I will get them eating and then find them dead in a couple of weeks so we never know what's going on inside these little gems, like Steve said in this hobby unfortunately we have to understand that all babies are not meant to make it. Just remember when force feeding use caution and make it as quick and easy as possible so you don't stress the animal too much and use smaller prey items that won't be hard to take down.

[joeysgreen]

I'd just like to add that in addition to agreeing with the above responses, I would skip force feeding and move directly to tube feeding if assist feeding doesn't work. Same results, much less stress. Further, a liquefied meal takes less energy to digest.
Always do the minimally invasive option first, and do so on a minimal basis. A hungry snake will be more apt to eat on it's own. If it doesn't, then assist, and then if a no-go, grab the tube.

If you have no experience with these procedures, I recommend you ask your vet for a demonstration. Learning from the internet can prove hazardous.

Ian