b1 deficiency

[crzy_kevo]

well my babies mainly turk seemed to be showing signs of b1 deficiency as i expected would eventually happen because of the main iet of fish i had been hoping that i would have had some pinkies to feed them before they started showing any signs of this but i went out yesterday and got a disgustingly expensive container of vitamin supplement cost me $22 after taxes but it was the only one of 2 available that had thiamin in it (the other one cost $8 + tax)

anyways the signs i was seeing is a couple times turk had decided to flip upside down and stiffin all his muscles making himself seem rigid and there was a little musk coming out of him as well and would some times try moving around upside down really wierd like the female did this once

anyways i gave them some food with the supplement today and added a little to the water hopefully this will fix the problems

[infernalis]

Fingers crossed for you Kevin.....

Damn, I hope they get better for you.

[crzy_kevo]

they should get better it first happened about a week ago


and they dont show signs that often like i said its only been twice for turk and once for squirt that i noticed this and last time i saw it was about 3 days ago

im not too worried but i am still keeping a close eye on them

and im still amazed at how much they have growni in the past month

[reptile3]

Sounds like you know what your doing Kevin, I hope they do well!!

[anji1971]

Good luck, Kevin. Hope they're all okay!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

were you feeding them the bad kind of fish? thats really weird, because in my younger days when I knew no better... I fed even my baby garters parts of goldfish and they lived. grew, and went on for a considerable amount of time before they ever started to have any kinds of problems. When they did have problems.... it was not like that. They eventually jsut became malnourished looking and passed away suddenly. (keep in mind i was still a child and had no idea) How long were they eating fish for? I have customers say to me all the time after I tell them goldfish are bad that "oh that snakes been eating them for years hes fine"... I try to tell them its not fine but it's so hard to do so when just because their snake is still alive they think it's okay... and then they look at me like im an idiot when really I just care about their snake...I've had people make me blue in the face already!

how is it that your snakes are doing this after only a little while? Something is not right here :confused:

[ssssnakeluvr]

what kind of fish are you feeding....it doesn't show up fast... also, garters can grow up just fine on a diet of only fish....

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

what kind of fish are you feeding....it doesn't show up fast... also, garters can grow up just fine on a diet of only fish....

see that is what I was thinking also, don. I observed this kind of thing he is describing only twice. Once was when the snake mites had invaded me. The snakes would turn upside down and do what looked like convulsing, but was really just attepts to get the bugs off.

The other time was a few weeks ago when I walked into my snake room to hear violent thrashing. I narrowed it to my female similis's tub and pulled it out to find her convulsing, thrashing, seizuring, shaking... her mouth wide open and her tongue permanently stuck out and shaking... with no sign of recovering. after 15 minutes of trying to revive her from that state, I put her in the freezer. Two weeks later, my Iowa snow radix, my beloved girl who was a champion eater, refuses her pinkie and proceeds to die the following day. I did not get the chance to see if she convulsed or not, but I will say that the two snakes were kept separate and never had contact... and were not eating fish! Needless to say... my snakeroom is on serious lockdown right now. Maybe these two deaths were just a horrible coincidence... maybe the same thing killed them. I talked to scott felzer on the phone about it for a bit, he said he had never seen anyhing like that! :confused:

[jitami]

Yikes Shannon....sorry about your recent losses & prayers that you have no more!!!

Kevin, good luck with Turk and Squirt. Isn't it nice to have these "experts" at your fingertips when something like this comes up?

[crzy_kevo]

what kind of fish are you feeding....it doesn't show up fast... also, garters can grow up just fine on a diet of only fish....

i feed them salmon and before it got too cold out they were eating salmon and worms

i know it usually does take a while for them to show signs but what could explain them both doing this . either way giving them the vitramin supplement is still a good idea so still better to be safe than sorry right

[snakeman]

I used to feed my garters fish(roseys) until the were big enough to eat whole pinks.I don't do it anymore.I only had one instance where a snake started showing signs and it was quick.It also went away quick when I got it to eat small frogs.Every snake is a individual.Just like some people smoke for 80 years with few problems.then some die before they turn 50.

[crzy_kevo]

ya how quick did that snake recover just so i know how long to look for this and signs of improvement

[snakeman]

It only took a couple of weeks.

[brain]

So if I get my garters then i need to watch for b1 deficiency?
The feeder gold fish will not be enough?
I raise mice for the rest of my clan so there is always that food source.
Ok and Slivadine for most health problems ... I have used Neosporin for quite a while
on my Womas and Gophers with no noted side affects.
Maybe garters are a bit more than I want or have i got it all backwards?
Michael

[crzy_kevo]

garters are great to have but feeding gold fish isnt good for them even with vitamin supplements it can still cause them to die i feed mine salmon which is good for them but i wasnt giving them any supplements which caused this

[Jack Neary]

see that is what I was thinking also, don. I observed this kind of thing he is describing only twice. Once was when the snake mites had invaded me. The snakes would turn upside down and do what looked like convulsing, but was really just attepts to get the bugs off.

The other time was a few weeks ago when I walked into my snake room to hear violent thrashing. I narrowed it to my female similis's tub and pulled it out to find her convulsing, thrashing, seizuring, shaking... her mouth wide open and her tongue permanently stuck out and shaking... with no sign of recovering. after 15 minutes of trying to revive her from that state, I put her in the freezer. Two weeks later, my Iowa snow radix, my beloved girl who was a champion eater, refuses her pinkie and proceeds to die the following day. I did not get the chance to see if she convulsed or not, but I will say that the two snakes were kept separate and never had contact... and were not eating fish! Needless to say... my snakeroom is on serious lockdown right now. Maybe these two deaths were just a horrible coincidence... maybe the same thing killed them. I talked to scott felzer on the phone about it for a bit, he said he had never seen anyhing like that! :confused:

Shannon,
What happened to your Similis that you put in the freezer? Is he or she OK now? What did Scott think it could be?

[snakeman]

see that is what I was thinking also, don. I observed this kind of thing he is describing only twice. Once was when the snake mites had invaded me. The snakes would turn upside down and do what looked like convulsing, but was really just attepts to get the bugs off.

The other time was a few weeks ago when I walked into my snake room to hear violent thrashing. I narrowed it to my female similis's tub and pulled it out to find her convulsing, thrashing, seizuring, shaking... her mouth wide open and her tongue permanently stuck out and shaking... with no sign of recovering. after 15 minutes of trying to revive her from that state, I put her in the freezer. Two weeks later, my Iowa snow radix, my beloved girl who was a champion eater, refuses her pinkie and proceeds to die the following day. I did not get the chance to see if she convulsed or not, but I will say that the two snakes were kept separate and never had contact... and were not eating fish! Needless to say... my snakeroom is on serious lockdown right now. Maybe these two deaths were just a horrible coincidence... maybe the same thing killed them. I talked to scott felzer on the phone about it for a bit, he said he had never seen anyhing like that! :confused:
Make sure you get that in check.I lost all of my adult garters a couple of years ago in a span of 2-3 weeks.All of thier lungs were enlarged.I am guessing it was some sort of respiratory infection.They did seem to die violently.

[GartersRock]

Oh that's horrible Tom....... :( How many did you have at the time?

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Make sure you get that in check.I lost all of my adult garters a couple of years ago in a span of 2-3 weeks.All of thier lungs were enlarged.I am guessing it was some sort of respiratory infection.They did seem to die violently.

it's in check, and it's been even before it happened. All of these snakes are still in quarantine and separate from others. Now, the others will be in it for longer.

Kevin, I really don't think this is a thiamine deficiency, especially if it was salmon you were using. Never have I heard of garter snakes suffering that quickly from eating fish and worms for a while, provided they are safe fish. Look at wild garters, many of them probably only ever get to eat worms and fish,a dn never even see a rodent, and they are not keeling over dead fromt thiamine deficiencies. I could only see Thiamine deficiency happening that quickly had you been using fish which are unsafe, thus blocking the absorbtion of any B1. B1 has to be in the prey items they eat, otherwise how would wild garters get their thiamine?

And to the person who asked if the feeder goldfish won't be enough...

the feeder goldfish are enough to kill your snake, you should entirely avoid even looking in their direction if you own a garter snake :)

I have gotten at points where I just did not have any pinkies to spare for the garters and they got salmon and worms until the next show... and my snakes are not any worse for wear. I read that T. butleri fecal samples from wild individuals revealed a diet entirely of earthworms and nothing else!!! (now if i can just find that) I would lay any amount of money that thiamine deficiency did not kill my similis. The sad thing is.. they were both flawless pinky eaters :(

[ssssnakeluvr]

I have noticed the thiaminase affects babies and sub-adults more than adults.....I fed adult garters goldfish for years and never had a problem, but look out with the little ones...can be hard on them. I found out about catfish containing thiaminase the hard way. it takes a while for the it to start causing problems...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have noticed the thiaminase affects babies and sub-adults more than adults.....I fed adult garters goldfish for years and never had a problem, but look out with the little ones...can be hard on them. I found out about catfish containing thiaminase the hard way. it takes a while for the it to start causing problems...

you're very right... and the thing is, kevin was using salmon, which does not even contain thiaminase... I really don't see thamine deficiency as the issue here.

[ssssnakeluvr]

I got some bad fish years ago.....snakes went into convulsions after about half an hour after eating.....but it was bad fish, from a crappy store, fish was spoiled. they have pretty tough digestive systems....I have seen photos of a plains garter eating a roadkilled toad and an eastern eating a roadkilled bird (have a copy of that photo). my het pied eastern didn't eat last week, fish dried out, pinkie rat leg dried out. she shed the n ext day and scarfed the dried food....not problems....guess she likes fish and rat jerky!!! :eek:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I got some bad fish years ago.....snakes went into convulsions after about half an hour after eating.....but it was bad fish, from a crappy store, fish was spoiled. they have pretty tough digestive systems....I have seen photos of a plains garter eating a roadkilled toad and an eastern eating a roadkilled bird (have a copy of that photo). my het pied eastern didn't eat last week, fish dried out, pinkie rat leg dried out. she shed the n ext day and scarfed the dried food....not problems....guess she likes fish and rat jerky!!! :eek:

LOL

I too have witnessed a garter snake attempting to scrape a carcass off the road. On reptastic I know there are some photo's somewhere of an eastern garter snake trying to eat a smooshed frog!

[ssssnakeluvr]

salmon is great for them....I just switched to salmon from tilapia....started noticing the twisting of some young garters... possibly got some spoiled fish... I was saving the rest of the filets for myself that night....I ended up chucking it out after the snakes had their convulsions....the amount I would have eaten would probably have killed me! :eek:

[drache]

ever since I lost Runty, I'm not sure about salmon either
I think it needs to be supplemented, because the freezing destroys some of the vitamins

[snakeman]

All together I lost 3 adult erythristics,3 adult flames,albino fl eastern,het albino fl eastern,het silver male.That was after a 3 month quarintine approx.Not long enough thats for sure.
I would think feeding anything from the ocean to your garters is risky.They dump a lot of crap in the ocean.Most of the fish contain mercury.Which screws up brain development.

[crzy_kevo]

i dont salmon was spoiled its been frozen the whole time and ive been using this package for about a 2 months never been thawed and the strips i cut off were fully thawed so that couldn't have caused it i think unless they ate too much i cant think of another reason for it