Vulnerable babies.

[adamanteus]

It never ceases to amaze me that baby Garters survive in the wild at all! I still have a few of the baby radix left, they are over six weeks old now and growing well.
I fed them them last night, and all but one (in 'the blue') ate well.
This evening, while I was cleaning them, I notice that the one who skipped the meal is lying in an odd posture and not moving. When I picked her up I saw she had a loose fold of skin along her flank (which wasn't there last night). At first I thought she was dead, but there was a tiny bit of movement. I lowered her head into the water bowl and she started drinking furiously, as though she'd been deprived of water for weeks! After a few minutes and a good soak, she started to perk-up.
It would seem that she spent the last 24 hours on the warm spot.... inches from the water bowl.... and became completely dehydrated!

I'll keep encouraging her to drink every hour for the next few hours, but I think she'll be fine now. But are they stupid or what?:rolleyes:

[jitami]

Wow, stories like this never cease to amaze me... and scare me! Nice save James!

[infernalis]

Sometimes gotta wonder.

Brill save James.

[Stefan-A]

Nice save. :)

Maybe some of them are stupid. :D Or maybe it has something to do with the fact that we don't actually replicate natural conditions.

[adamanteus]

It was just a lucky save really. Had I cleaned earlier, or tomorrow, she might have died.

[drache]

I'm sure there are some stupid specimens in every species
glad you saved your little one, James

[guidofatherof5]

Maybe it's like the failure to thrive in some of them. Maybe the thrive for water just wasn't there. I really don't know but this was my thought. Great save.

[adamanteus]

Maybe it's like the failure to thrive in some of them.

Yes, Steve, I think you have it there. Of course, Garters are heavily predated in nature, especially when very young. So the mortality rate is very high. It's as if some of the babies are 'decoys', to give the stronger individuals a better chance, no doubt these weaker, more 'stupid' individuals are the first to fall prey.
After six weeks though, I would hope they'd got passed the suicidal stage.

[Snake lover 3-25]

nice save james:D that reminds me..... i'll have to see if mine are thirsty..... no point in taking chances....:D

[Stefan-A]

Yes, Steve, I think you have it there. Of course, Garters are heavily predated in nature, especially when very young. So the mortality rate is very high. It's as if some of the babies are 'decoys', to give the stronger individuals a better chance, no doubt these weaker, more 'stupid' individuals are the first to fall prey.
Well, they're definitely more likely to fall prey than the rest, but I fail to see how that would benefit the others. Unless they're hiding in the same place and that 'tarded baby is worse than its siblings at escaping when a predator comes along, if that's what you meant with "decoy". Then the others obviously benefit from having a dumb one in the litter.

I know gulls usually produce three eggs, of which the last one is normally significantly smaller than the first two, and sort of functions as a backup in case one of the normal sized chicks dies. Doesn't make sense to apply the same logic to garters, since they aren't raised by their parents. But then again, maybe it does, if they're competing for food the same way that gull chicks do.

[adamanteus]

Well, they're definitely more likely to fall prey than the rest, but I fail to see how that would benefit the others.

Well, the local predator would have a full belly for a couple more days.;)

[garterchick]

i think it's just natural selection, survival of the fittest! they're really not meant to all survive.

[adamanteus]

Very true.

[Stefan-A]

Well, the local predator would have a full belly for a couple more days.;)
Better to not feed it at all? ;)

[Stefan-A]

i think it's just natural selection, survival of the fittest! they're really not meant to all survive.
It's quite possible that they aren't, but if that's the case, there should be something about the system that makes it worth producing them anyway.

[adamanteus]

Hey, I can't explain nature. But certainly the strong survive..... and if there happens to be a weakling nearby when the wolf comes calling... all the better!

[Stefan-A]

Hey, I can't explain nature. But certainly the strong survive..... and if there happens to be a weakling nearby when the wolf comes calling... all the better!
More of the strong survive, than of the weak. But some of the weak still survive. It's not always the weakest one that dies.

Think about this: When people are catching wild snakes, they're far more likely to catch a dumb one, than a smart one. :D The "strong" ones get away more often than the "weak" ones. So chances are that we own descendants of the dumbest, slowest snakes that mother nature had to offer. :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

James.. this very same thing has happened to me before with a few baby sirtalis. It's something I MIGHT expect if they had just been moved to a new container and could not find the water... but whe they've been in there for weeks and all of a sudden forget to take drinks... it makes ya wonder!

[adamanteus]

James.. this very same thing has happened to me before with a few baby sirtalis.

Did they survive, Shannon?

[jitami]

:D The "strong" ones get away more often than the "weak" ones. So chances are that we own descendants of the dumbest, slowest snakes that mother nature had to offer. :D

:D Makes perfect sense to me :D

[Stefan-A]

:D Makes perfect sense to me :D
It would explain a lot of the things that our garters do, wouldn't it? :D

[jitami]

MmmmHmmm... like sleeping under the substrate with your tender underbelly still easily visible and exposed to predators.... mmmmhmmmm...

Not to mention scaring your mommy half to death! :D

[guidofatherof5]

There is so much we don't know about these creatures. A lot of speculation and conjecture but makes for a great pool of ideas. Brainstorming is a great thing, especially among people with a passion for their welfare

[adamanteus]

I still think there's something in my 'decoy theory'.... but it needs research before I can really argue it.

[Stefan-A]

I still think there's something in my 'decoy theory'.... but it needs research before I can really argue it.
I think it definitely has merit. Provided that it's not something that we're causing.

[adamanteus]

It seems to me that babies hang around in small groups.... I have certainly found that young Grass Snakes do this. Along comes the hungry predator and the group scatters, all except for the stupid decoy..... what happens next?

[Stefan-A]

It seems to me that babies hang around in small groups.... I have certainly found that young Grass Snakes do this. Along comes the hungry predator and the group scatters, all except for the stupid decoy..... what happens next?
It picks the first one it sees, the brightest of the bunch; The first one to move. ;)

[infernalis]

http://pixdaus.com/pics/12142857216BtL3ye.jpg

[adamanteus]

No, Stefan... this particular predator is a hedgehog, it's not so fast that it can grab the quick ones, it would have to follow them and root them out. So now what happens?

[Stefan-A]

No, Stefan... this particular predator is a hedgehog, it's not so fast that it can grab the quick ones, it would have to follow them and root them out. So now what happens?
It hears a car coming, rolls up into a ball and gets smooshed? ;)

[infernalis]

http://slog.thestranger.com/files/2007/01/hedgehog.JPG

[adamanteus]

Or it's a young king snake, it's keenest sense is olifactory... it sees the sudden movements, but it's confused, they seem to be all around it. But there, right in front, unmoving, is 'dummy decoy'. Now what happens?

[infernalis]

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2220/2114972983_3a460b402d.jpg

[Stefan-A]

Or it's a young king snake, it's keenest sense is olifactory... it sees the sudden movements, but it's confused, they seem to be all around it. But there, right in front, unmoving, is 'dummy decoy'. Now what happens?
It gets confused because of the residual smell of multiple individuals, goes right past the unmoving dummy and instead tries to eat a rock that one of them rubbed against? ;)

[adamanteus]

Haha! That sounds about right!:D
I think I have a good theory. I would love the chance to field study my ideas..... so if anyone wants to fund that for me? Stefan could come too, if there were any flaws in my findings, who better to point them out?;)

[Stefan-A]

Haha! That sounds about right!:D
I think I have a good theory. I would love the chance to field study my ideas..... so if anyone wants to fund that for me? Stefan could come too, if there were any flaws in my findings, who better to point them out?;)
One of my classmates already made the mistake of asking me to act as the opponent for her thesis. :D

No, James. It's not a euphemism.

[infernalis]

Cheques in the post.:rolleyes:

[adamanteus]

No, James. It's not a euphemism.

It should have been... it's a really good one!:D

[Stefan-A]

It should have been... it's a really good one!:D
I couldn't agree more with that first part. :D

[adamanteus]

I'm struggling now to think of some really good euphemisms...... but my brain's made of poo!

[Stefan-A]

I'm struggling now to think of some really good euphemisms...... but my brain's made of poo!
Oh come on, verb a noun. :D

[Garter_Gertie]

I'm braining poo... ????

[Stefan-A]

I'm braining poo... ????
Yeah, not the best example. :D But practically anything else can be a euphemism.

[adamanteus]

Gertie, I think Stefan would like to make an example of your euphemism.;)

[Stefan-A]

Gertie, I think Stefan would like to make an example of your euphemism.;)
There you go! That wasn't so hard ("That's what she said!"), was it? :D

[Garter_Gertie]

You guys make me poo my brain...

[Stefan-A]

You guys make me poo my brain...
Good one! :D

[Garter_Gertie]

I'm tryin'! I'm strainin'!!! I'm hemrmoiding myself!

:)

[jitami]

Lol :D

[Loren]

I think that's all part of why garters have fairly large litters- allows for many of the babies to fail to make it, while still hopefully allowing one or 2 to reach breeding age. If you think about wild snake population, if even 50% of all snake hatchlings or newborns made it all the way to sexual maturity and successful reproduction, wouldnt wild habitats be overrun with snakes?
The extras are there to feed other animals.

[infernalis]

I also wonder about other losses.

Last winter was harsh and long, resulting in many late wild litters.

It got cold out quick this year, Many of the babies from this years litters are still very small.

How well do the babies handle brumation?

[reptile3]

Aww James, you have a kind heart for animals. Great to see that in MEN!
Nice safe on the baby!!:)

[Stefan-A]

How well do the babies handle brumation?
There are some form of statistics in the Rossman et al book, can't remember. Naturally, there are some differences between different dens, some are better than others.

[gregmonsta]

Lol silly little bugger!!

[infernalis]

There are some form of statistics in the Rossman et al book, can't remember. Naturally, there are some differences between different dens, some are better than others.


Seems as if there should be some losses, Babies don't have as much "fuel" to make a long winter?

Would make a compelling argument next time some PETA type claims we are cruel for having pet garter snakes.

[Lori P]

No, because they are against any animal in captivity, period. Death is better than life in a cage. (Which, you know, has some merit considering the horrible cages many animals are kept in.) But Peta is incapable of recognizing the good animal caretakers.

[Stefan-A]

No, because they are against any animal in captivity, period. Death is better than life in a cage. (Which, you know, has some merit considering the horrible cages many animals are kept in.) But Peta is incapable of recognizing the good animal caretakers.
As I see it, their assertion that death is better than life in a cage has no merit at all, becauseit's not based on the assumption that horrible conditions are bad for the animals. :) In other words, it's not really based on anything real at all.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Did they survive, Shannon?


yes, only because I realized what was going on and put them into containers of water over night!

[adamanteus]

Well, I fed all the new radix babies this afternoon. I couldn't tell which one it was that was dehydrated the other day!
I guess it shows that they can lose water at an alarming rate, when they're so small, but they can rehydrate equally as quickly.
I check on them twice a day anyway, but from now on I'll be paying much closer attention for early signs of dehydration.
Anyway, no harm done this time.:D

[Stefan-A]

Good news so far. :)

[infernalis]

Lost 3 to dehydration today James:(

I hope the survivor does as well as your Radix baby did.

[adamanteus]

Lost 3 to dehydration today James:(

I hope the survivor does as well as your Radix baby did.

Sorry to hear that Wayne..... it's just so fast!

[guidofatherof5]

I feel terrible for your loss.

[infernalis]

Thanks Steve, I'm sorry if I forgot to thank you last time.

Yeah James, they seemed fine when they ate??

There is no basking light, only the light hood that came with the tank.

I can't imagine dying of thirst like that.