Califor. King Snake

[guidofatherof5]

I placed an ad in Craigslist. Letting people in our area know that I would take any unwanted snakes. A lady called and is about to offer me a 4 1/2 Calf. King Snake. She says it eats 2-3 mice every other week. Is it safe to say the care for it would be like the care for a Bull snake? I've done those before with never any problems. Thanks for your advise.

[infernalis]

Yes Steve, Standard Colubrid care applies.

[adamanteus]

I don't wish to seem negative, Steve..... but if you don't know how to care for a King Snake, why offer to take any unwanted snakes?

[Loren]

Yes Steve, Standard Colubrid care applies.
I agree. :)

[adamanteus]

Guys.... standard colubrid? Please define. Like a Dekays? Like a Brown Tree Snake? Like a Green Snake? A Boomslang?
I think the colubrids are a bit too diverse to standardise into one set of captive care rules.
My point being, if Steve needs to ask about captive care for this species, it might be a little ambitious to advertise his willingness to take any unwanted snake? The first consideration with Kings of course, is their propensity towards ophiophagy.... best to keep that in mind.

[Repfanatic]

unwanted snake
Also, a lot of peoples' unwanted snakes will more than likely be poorly taken care of and may need medical attention and advanced care from the "rescuer", so it's best that you know how to care for the specific species you are taking in.

[Stefan-A]

I'm going to have agree with James on both issues here. Even if some colubrids have similar needs, that's still far from any kind of standard.

Your enthusiasm is understandable, Steve, but I would recommend taking it a bit slower and gathering all the information you can before getting a new snake. It seems a bit irresponsible to offer to "accept any challenge".

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for your advice. I'm asking before I take on the snake. I understand the possible costs to me. Giving them a better home is my objective. I'm devoted to all my animals and will do whatever it takes to give them a chance at a better life. If that means my own education then that's what I'll do.

[adamanteus]

I don't doubt that your motives are honourable (and commendable) Steve. It just concerns me that you could easily be saddled with a snake you can't even identify, much less care for, by placing such an ad. Don't forget, by making this offer you are giving people the impression that you can provide better care for the animal than they can...... If you have no knowledge or experience of this animal (whereas they do) this impression would be misleading. I speak from experience..... I did a similar thing myself, years ago. The first snake to come into my care was a European Cat Snake (Telescopus fallax) with mouth-rot. I failed... utterly.

[guidofatherof5]

I understand your concern and appreciate your advice. That makes sense. Sometimes I lead with my heart. I have given it thought. I give myself the option to not take an animal I don't think I can for. I also know there will be situations where the snake needs rescuing whether I know what it is or not. I hope there are some of those. I've read some of the post describing the horrible conditions some of these snakes have to live in. For them I will do what I can.

[Loren]

James, you are correct- lots of diversity in colubrids. I think off the top of our heads, myself, and maybe Wayne included, think of kings, corns, milks, gophers/bulls... when saying "standard colubrid". And there are minor variances in some of their care too, but they are fairly standard in care.

[adamanteus]

I understand your concern and appreciate your advice. That makes sense. Sometimes I lead with my heart. I have given it thought. I give myself the option to not take an animal I don't think I can for. I also know there will be situations where the snake needs rescuing whether I know what it is or not. I hope there are some of those. I've read some of the post describing the horrible conditions some of these snakes have to live in. For them I will do what I can.


Steve, I can't argue with that! It's a wonderful thing to undertake.... If there is any help I can offer, I will happily do so. Best of luck with it..... Just be prepared for some failure and some disappointment.

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks James,
Giving them chance at some type of decent life even if it's a short one is my objective. My inconvience is nothing compared to some of these situations. I also know a few Vet.(Herps) who would be willing to help me with any medical issues.

[Zephyr]

...
If it IS just a Cali king... I don't think he'd have any problem with it. :P
I personally have no experience keeping them but... From the ones I see at the reptile show (big, fat things they are! XD) you can drop a mouse in with them and it'll be gone.
I don't think he's biting off more than he can chew. (Pardon the pun. :P )
Now if some one offers him their 12 foot reticulated python... Maybe then he MAY need some help. XD

[infernalis]

All I meant by "standard colubrid" care was.

Keep them caged and feed them.:D

[Zephyr]

Perhaps we should specify... North American colubrid care. :P

[adamanteus]

Perhaps we should specify... North American colubrid care. :P

Or perhaps to be more accurate... 'North American, Terrestrial, Constricting Colubrids in the Genera Pantherophis, Lampropeltis and Pituophis, exclusive of all other non-conforming North American Colubrid Genera'.;)

[Loren]

Or,"keep it sorta like a bull snake, but without any cagemates cause it'll eat 'em"
:)

[Zephyr]

Spot on, spot on. :D

[Stefan-A]

Or,"keep it sorta like a bull snake, but without any cagemates cause it'll eat 'em"
:)
Why not just keep it like a California kingsnake? :rolleyes:

[Loren]

cause he said he hadnt ket one, but he had kepts bulls. :)

[Loren]

I personally keep my kings like corns, and my corns like kings- although I do keep my kings separately, and do sometimes keep my corns together.
Sorry for the ramble, but I had to make up some b.s. so I could post my 1000'th post.
:)

[Zephyr]

I personally keep my kings like corns, and my corns like kings- although I do keep my kings separately, and do sometimes keep my corns together.
Sorry for the ramble, but I had to make up some b.s. so I could post my 1000'th post.
:)*Claps.*
Hooray.
I think your custom title should be Kaptain King Snake after this little discussion. :P

Also... I keep my corns in pairs... 2.0 and 0.2, of course.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Standard colubrid care is just a term used to describe the most commonly kept colubrids and how they basically all need the same basic things. When someone says standard colubrid care to me, I equate that in my head as an appropriately sized cage with aspen as substrate, a hidebox or two, a mid sized water bowl just large enough for the snake to curl up in, and a decent sized rodent once per week. Anything else, like pants and deco is jsut icing on the cake, and not needed. No tropical temperatures and humidifiers constantly running, no need for heavily planted terraria, not a specialized diet or a fast metabolism. Many, many colubrids fall into this category and that is why people say it. I hear it all the time at shows, and I myself use the term, while I still acknowledge the fact that not all colubrids fit into this term.

[Loren]

well said :)

[guidofatherof5]

Thanks for your help.

[Scaley.Jade]

like the care for a corn if i remember rightly

The King Snake.co.uk - King Snake Care Sheet (http://www.thekingsnake.co.uk/king_snake_care_sheet.htm)
try this link

[tyflier]

"Standard Colubrid Care" usually means the general North American Colubrids that are regualrly available in the pet trade, meaning Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, Pituophis, and MAYBE a few of the Asian Elaphe species of ratsnake.

In other words...85*F on the hot end, room temp on the other, aspen or coconut as a substrate, a hide on each end, water dish, and appropriately sized prey about once a week. Considering the sheer number of species encompassed in the above 3-4 Genera of snakes...it's a fairly safe generalization to make.

Yes, Hypsiglena, Salvadora, Tantilla, and many, many other species are also colubrids. But they are not readily available or easily attainable to the "general public" as a pet.

In other words...if you walk into a pet shop and see it, it probably falls within the three main classifications...Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis. The only real exception to the "standard care" that is readily available in the pet trade would be Thamnophis.

I have a caresheet posted on my website, along with many tips and tricks that should EASILY get you and a Cali settled in together quite nicely. Any other questions, feel free to shoot me a line.

[Stefan-A]

The only real exception to the "standard care" that is readily available in the pet trade would be Thamnophis.
You can also add Heterodon and Nerodia. Diadophis and Storeria don't seem to be too rare within the hobby, either.

If there are exceptions, it's not a standard at all. It is misleading to talk about standard colubrid care, if it only applies to a certain segment of the family.

[drache]

You can also add Heterodon and Nerodia. Diadophis and Storeria don't seem to be too rare within the hobby, either.

If there are exceptions, it's not a standard at all. It is misleading to talk about standard colubrid care, if it only applies to a certain segment of the family.
I guess, it's the US we're talking about
of course it might be different in other states, but . . .
when you go to reptile shows here, you're not likely to see much outside the "standard" species alluded to
the thamnophis, nerodia, storeria, heterodon species collectively comprise about 1% of the snakes at the shows, and over half of that would be heterodon, so for most people here none of them would be considered "standard" colubrids

[Stefan-A]

I guess, it's the US we're talking about
of course it might be different in other states, but . . .
when you go to reptile shows here, you're not likely to see much outside the "standard" species alluded to
the thamnophis, nerodia, storeria, heterodon species collectively comprise about 1% of the snakes at the shows, and over half of that would be heterodon, so for most people here none of them would be considered "standard" colubrids
If that's the criteria, then I bet the "standard colubrid" would be the corn snake and then you might as well talk about standard corn snake care.

[guidofatherof5]

I didn't hear back from the lady. She said she was going to run it by her husband first. Thanks for all your comment and advise.

[Lori P]

Steve, I've had two occasions where the wife contacted me to give me a snake, then told her husband and he refused. I think the wives try to find a home first and then hope they can talk hubby into giving it up. Hmph... women... so sneaky!!! :rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

I'm not going to get into one of those situations. I don't need an angry husband at the door demanding his snake back.

[Charlet_2007]

How did i miss this thread is beyond me..

I take care and rescue everything.. I mean EVERYTHING from the toad some one found out side to the 13 foot albino green Burmese hernia (as Gertie called her lol) AKA Izzy..

King snakes aren't as hard a snake as you'd think to take care of.. We've had our Florida Brooksi King for well over a year now and hes right at 4 1/2 foot.. Fast growers really fast... But with like any other snake they take time..

If you want i can tell you how i have my tank set up guido..

Also heres the thing when someone gives me the snakes I make them sign a release waver.. By them signing it they give up the right of takeing care of said reptile and that way they can't take the reptile back even if they come to your font door and demand it back..

I'd get it noterized by a lawer or go to your bank they do it for hardly nothing or even for free.. and it holds up in court..

You would not beleave how many people do that.. Give you a snake then after you take care of it and get it back to health they come knocking on your door..

Also when you get the snake and/or cage (dont mess with the snake or cage) take pics of everything and i mean EVERYTHING that way if it is in bad heath you have pictures for proof for court if it goes down that road..

I hope this helps..

PS: If all else fails guidofatherof5 I can take it in :D:D..

[guidofatherof5]

You bring up a very important aspect for me to consider. Thanks.

[infernalis]

Steve, We have a couple of snakes that were not on "the wish list" when acquired.

When I found Cain, I had no desires of Ball Python ownership. None nada!

I had no interest, so therefore no study, no knowledge. (All heart, no brain)

I did know this much, My best efforts HAD to be better than this squalor he was living in.

Several of the BP owners on this forum gave me all the guidance, (combined with some research and common sense) I needed, and Cain is a very happy python now.

No regrets whatsoever, and I really have grown rather attached to this big lug of a snake.

Follow what is in your heart, the rest is just education:D

Some advice, when approached, go pick them up and do not disclose where you live.

[Lori P]

Agreed with the above: always use a cell phone, never disclose where you live, and always get a signed release form. And always pull an animal out of a terrible situation-- because there is plenty of help out there to teach you how to care for it, or a sanctuary to be found. You don't get a second chance to save something.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Agreed with the above: always use a cell phone, never disclose where you live, and always get a signed release form. And always pull an animal out of a terrible situation-- because there is plenty of help out there to teach you how to care for it, or a sanctuary to be found. You don't get a second chance to save something.

This is how I work when I do rescues. The people don't see where I live, they dont get my house number, and they don't get their snake back once it's healthy!:D

[tyflier]

You can also add Heterodon and Nerodia. Diadophis and Storeria don't seem to be too rare within the hobby, either.

If there are exceptions, it's not a standard at all. It is misleading to talk about standard colubrid care, if it only applies to a certain segment of the family.
Well, Heterodon could be kept following the "standard" guidelines with little issue, IF it is eating pinkies. As a matter of fact, so could most Thamnophis IF they accept pinkies and mice.

Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "There's an exception to every rule"? You have 3 genera of snakes that combined make up less than 3% of the total colubrid species available widely distributed in the pet trade. Than you have 3 or 4 genera that make up about 93%. And you still don't agree it's "standard" or "general"?

The reality is, Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis make up an insurmountable majority of the colubrid snakes available in the pet trade. We're not talking about 51% here...we're talking about 90% or better. Certainly there are other colubrid species available. Those species are not nearly as wide spread in captivity as the "Big Three". And usually, people keeping those species have more than an elementary experience.

[Stefan-A]

Well, Heterodon could be kept following the "standard" guidelines with little issue, IF it is eating pinkies. As a matter of fact, so could most Thamnophis IF they accept pinkies and mice.
And provided that it's not one of the Heterodon species that shouldn't be fed mice (according to the care sheets that I remember reading).


Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "There's an exception to every rule"?There isn't, though. That's kinda what makes it a rule.


You have 3 genera of snakes that combined make up less than 3% of the total colubrid species available widely distributed in the pet trade. Than you have 3 or 4 genera that make up about 93%. And you still don't agree it's "standard" or "general"?

The reality is, Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis make up an insurmountable majority of the colubrid snakes available in the pet trade. We're not talking about 51% here...we're talking about 90% or better. Certainly there are other colubrid species available. Those species are not nearly as wide spread in captivity as the "Big Three". And usually, people keeping those species have more than an elementary experience.Let's recap. We started with a statement that referred to an entire family of snakes. The most diverse family. Then it was suggested that the term that covers an entire family would mean just species that are reasonably often available. And now we're at a point where the term that covers the largest and most diverse family of snakes is supposed to be used to describe the species with the largest market share. Why not just take that one extra step and assert that colubrid = corn snake? It's not like the either of the remaining two in the "Big Three" even comes close.

Damn straight I don't agree it's standard or general, if we have to make up rules to exclude nearly all the species referred to by the terms we are using.

[tyflier]

I think you're nitpicking. I think that the phrase "standard colubrid care" is VERY EASILY recognizeable for what it is, what it is meant to be, and what it was intended as in this topic. You're just being picky and difficult.

When you really get down to it...there is actually very little that links all of the different genera within the Colubrid family of snakes. It is the "catchall" for taxonomists. If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it automatically becomes a colubrid. And MOST of them can be kept under the conditions described as "general colubrid care". There are aproximately 1,000 species of colubrid in the world, and of them...it would be my estimation that roughly 70% can be kept similarly to a California King, with minor variations to humidity, temperature, and cage size. THAT, my friend, makes it pretty "standard"...by anyone's definition...except maybe yours...:rolleyes:

And just so you don't think I forgot...there ARE exceptions to every rule. Some people just prefer to see things in black and white. Unfortunately for those people...they miss all the shades of gray in between. And that is where the beauty lies. ESPECIALLY in this hobby of ours...

Oh yea, one more thing...nobody ever tried to redefine the family of colubrids or the term to describe them, and nobody ever tried to turn "colubrids" into "cornsnakes". You're being a bit extreme. We DEFINED the term "standard" as it was being used. There is nothing wrong with that...it's called language, and people do it all the time.

And if you don't think care for the "big three" in the pet trade even come close, than you have no idea how to keep any opf the snakes in those three Genera, because they are all incredibly similar down to feeding prey size and schedules.

The biggest problem you're having is seperating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. You're trying to hold scientific definitions against a bunch of pet snake keepers. Lighten up before you have a stroke...

[Charlet_2007]

I think you're nitpicking. I think that the phrase "standard colubrid care" is VERY EASILY recognizeable for what it is, what it is meant to be, and what it was intended as in this topic. You're just being picky and difficult.

When you really get down to it...there is actually very little that links all of the different genera within the Colubrid family of snakes. It is the "catchall" for taxonomists. If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it automatically becomes a colubrid. And MOST of them can be kept under the conditions described as "general colubrid care". There are aproximately 1,000 species of colubrid in the world, and of them...it would be my estimation that roughly 70% can be kept similarly to a California King, with minor variations to humidity, temperature, and cage size. THAT, my friend, makes it pretty "standard"...by anyone's definition...except maybe yours...:rolleyes:

And just so you don't think I forgot...there ARE exceptions to every rule. Some people just prefer to see things in black and white. Unfortunately for those people...they miss all the shades of gray in between. And that is where the beauty lies. ESPECIALLY in this hobby of ours...

Oh yea, one more thing...nobody ever tried to redefine the family of colubrids or the term to describe them, and nobody ever tried to turn "colubrids" into "cornsnakes". You're being a bit extreme. We DEFINED the term "standard" as it was being used. There is nothing wrong with that...it's called language, and people do it all the time.

And if you don't think care for the "big three" in the pet trade even come close, than you have no idea how to keep any opf the snakes in those three Genera, because they are all incredibly similar down to feeding prey size and schedules.

The biggest problem you're having is seperating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. You're trying to hold scientific definitions against a bunch of pet snake keepers. Lighten up before you have a stroke...


I agree with you 100% thanks for that info man.. two thumbs up :D:D:D

[Stefan-A]

I think you're nitpicking. I think that the phrase "standard colubrid care" is VERY EASILY recognizeable for what it is, what it is meant to be, and what it was intended as in this topic. You're just being picky and difficult.
Consider it a protest against the misuse of taxonomic terms.


When you really get down to it...there is actually very little that links all of the different genera within the Colubrid family of snakes. It is the "catchall" for taxonomists. If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it automatically becomes a colubrid.I know, I pointed it out at least once.


And MOST of them can be kept under the conditions described as "general colubrid care". There are aproximately 1,000 species of colubrid in the world, and of them...it would be my estimation that roughly 70% can be kept similarly to a California King, with minor variations to humidity, temperature, and cage size. THAT, my friend, makes it pretty "standard"...by anyone's definition...except maybe yours...:rolleyes:Cali Kings can't even be kept the same way as your average Pantherophis, how do you figure that 70% of all snakes under Colubridae could? Some New World and Old World rat snakes are similar and most kingsnakes appear to have similar needs, but how you got 70% is beyond me. And may I point out that you're now allowing variations as well as exceptions? You're constantly moving further and further away from the concepts of both "standard" and "colubrid". How about non-colubrids? How many of them can be kept under the same conditions as CaliKings? All species sympatric with those hypothetical 70%?


And just so you don't think I forgot...there ARE exceptions to every rule. Some people just prefer to see things in black and white. Unfortunately for those people...they miss all the shades of gray in between. And that is where the beauty lies. ESPECIALLY in this hobby of ours...Funny, it's the shades of grey that I'm pointing out here. Maybe I'm just allowing more shades than Paint has on its toolbar. But there really are no exceptions to a rule, the rule just gets ignored.


Oh yea, one more thing...nobody ever tried to redefine the family of colubrids or the term to describe them, and nobody ever tried to turn "colubrids" into "cornsnakes". You're being a bit extreme. We DEFINED the term "standard" as it was being used. There is nothing wrong with that...it's called language, and people do it all the time. The term was getting redefined because of the context it was being used in and both terms already have their set definitions, everything else is just abuse of those terms. You're right, nobody tried to turn "colubrids" into "corn snakes", but the arguments that people used would have done that.


And if you don't think care for the "big three" in the pet trade even come close, than you have no idea how to keep any opf the snakes in those three Genera, because they are all incredibly similar down to feeding prey size and schedules.I was talking about the market share, just like you did in the post I was replying to and that was actually an argument that you were using, so what exactly are you arguing against?


The biggest problem you're having is seperating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. You're trying to hold scientific definitions against a bunch of pet snake keepers. I'm advocating separating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. If you want to lump a bunch of snakes together, you need to come up with your own word for that group. Colubrid is already taken by the scientific community and my standard name recommendation is "Bob".


Lighten up before you have a stroke...Thank you so much for your concern.

[tyflier]

Well..I was going to read your entire post, but then I got to this:

...Cali Kings can't even be kept the same way as your average Pantherophis, how do you figure that 70% of all snakes under Colubridae could?...
And quit because you are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, 100% WRONG. L.g. californae can be kept under the EXACT SAME CONDITIONS as a MAJORITY of the Pantherophis genera of snakes without any issues.

How else do you explain the FACT that you can find Cali kings in the same area as several species of ratsnake, including, but not limited to, obsoleta, spiloides, and emoryi? How esle do you explain the FACT that California king care is precisely the same as Florida king care and floridana are found in the exact same locations as guttata? How else do you explain the FACT that with MINOR variations in temperature(and we're talking 3-5*F here...not 10 or 15...) you can keep ALL snakes in the Lampropeltis genus, and they are mostly found within FEET of many species in the Pantherophis family?

I won't even bother reading the rest of your replies if this is any indication of your how well you know these animals and their captive care requirements.

If nothing else...please realize that a difference of 3-5*F is something that all 50 of my Lampropeltis, Pantherophis, Lichanura, Pituophis, and Thamnophis are seperated by, and they all thrive and reproduce...without any issues. And I have done it this way for 20 years and change without a single issue...

Nitpick the "misuse" of taxonomic terminology all you want...the above are all facts that you simply cannot argue with, my friend...

By the way...How many North American colubrids do you have in Finland? How much native habitat and observation of these animals have you actually done that gives you such knowledge of what they require to be kept successfully in captivity?

A better question would be...whose care sheets are you reading that have thrown your captive care requirements for these animals SO far off base that you actually and honestly believe that a Cali King and a Texas Ratsnake can't be kept under the exact same conditions?

To the original poster...I'm sorry this topic got dragged so far away from your original question. BACK to that question...care for a Cali king is extremely easy. Follow any caresheet worth it's salt for a cornsnake, kingsnake, gophersnake, bullsnake, milksnake, ratsnake, or rosy boa, and you'll be just fine. Don't worry about the rest of this topic. If you have any specific questions...shoot me line via PM and I'll be happy to help you out...I'm done with this topic...

[guidofatherof5]

The way it looks I won't be getting the snake. No call from the lady. I appreciate everyones input. Thanks

[adamanteus]

This thread certainly did get a little out of hand for a while there, but there is a good and valid point that it being glossed over...... There is no such thing as a 'standard' colubrid.
This may well be a phrase used in the US pet trade to describe the three genera mentioned, but this is not a US forum, it's a world-wide forum. I have never heard the phrase used by serious minded keepers here in the UK, and I've been keeping reptiles for over 40 years. If there were a 'standard', it would surely be a tropical arboreal form, which probably make up the largest single group within the colubrids.
More over, if a person doesn't know how to keep a Cali King (arguably one of the easiest of snakes to care for), they are probably not going to gain much insight from a phrase such as 'standard colubrid care'. Plus this phrase would be very misleading for our innumerable non US members, who are not au fait with American slang, and may well have to translate into their own language.
Anyway, that's not really the point.... When I raised the issue, it wasn't inaccurate terminology I was trying to highlight..... It was the fact that so many people set themselves up as would be rescuers, when they have too little knowledge (or amenities) to care for their rescues. This is how so many large pythons end up living in 6 foot tanks etc. Loving snakes is not enough.
In my view, if you don't already know the captive care of a Cali King, you're not ready or able to be a rescuer of 'any snake'.

[Stefan-A]

Well..I was going to read your entire post, but then I got to this:

And quit because you are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, 100% WRONG. L.g. californae can be kept under the EXACT SAME CONDITIONS as a MAJORITY of the Pantherophis genera of snakes without any issues.
I think you're just being remarkably myopic.


How else do you explain the FACT that you can find Cali kings in the same area as several species of ratsnake, including, but not limited to, obsoleta, spiloides, and emoryi? How esle do you explain the FACT that California king care is precisely the same as Florida king care and floridana are found in the exact same locations as guttata? How else do you explain the FACT that with MINOR variations in temperature(and we're talking 3-5*F here...not 10 or 15...) you can keep ALL snakes in the Lampropeltis genus, and they are mostly found within FEET of many species in the Pantherophis family? Why do you think they are found in the same area? Do you think there might be connection between that reason and maybe a reason why somebody might assert that you can't keep cali kings the same way that you can keep corns or other rat snakes?


If nothing else...please realize that a difference of 3-5*F is something that all 50 of my Lampropeltis, Pantherophis, Lichanura, Pituophis, and Thamnophis are seperated by, and they all thrive and reproduce...without any issues. And I have done it this way for 20 years and change without a single issue...Oh, so now we've narrowed down the term "care" as well, first to "conditions" and then to "temperature" (and we've added a boid as well). So let's see if I've got this straight: "Standard" means applicable to an arbitrary percentage and according to rules that can be arbitrarily be ignored, "colubrid" means the three North American species of colubrid that are sold most often and "care" means temperature.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to disagree with you James. I respect your opinion and hope you do mine. My abilities can many times be far better than the care they are recieving. I am trying to keep some snakes from being put to death. My continued eduaction is an ongoing process but waiting until it's adaquate may not be good timing for some snakes. My reason for the thread was because I do care and needed advice from people who are more in the know. I am not wearing my heart on my sleeve. I don't consided myself unable to rescue "any" snake. I have done so in the past with great results. Relocating and finding great homes with caring people for these snakes. Thanks for your thoughts.

[adamanteus]

Of course I respect your opinion, and I respect what you're trying to do.... I was merely reiterating what I said to you earlier in the thread, and pointing out that 'standard care' isn't the most enlightening of responses to one who doesn't know the care of a Cali King, in an effort to bring the thread back to where it started.
My remarks about rescuing aren't aimed specifically at you, but you must understand what I mean about huge pythons in tiny tanks? It happens all the time.

[infernalis]

I have seen too many photos of Burms and Retics shoved into 4-6 foot enclosures, folded over on themselves for lack of room.

Yes that is sad, Yet unthinking folks who must have that "impressive" snake get in way over their heads time after time...

I have always found Anacondas fascinating, but until I could have a 20 foot by 20 foot paddock that would make a zoo proud, I'll pass on even trying to keep one.

[tyflier]

I think you're just being remarkably myopic.

Why do you think they are found in the same area? Do you think there might be connection between that reason and maybe a reason why somebody might assert that you can't keep cali kings the same way that you can keep corns or other rat snakes?

Oh, so now we've narrowed down the term "care" as well, first to "conditions" and then to "temperature" (and we've added a boid as well). So let's see if I've got this straight: "Standard" means applicable to an arbitrary percentage and according to rules that can be arbitrarily be ignored, "colubrid" means the three North American species of colubrid that are sold most often and "care" means temperature.
And I think your being incredibly difficult.

The bottom line is you can sit there and micromanage hundreds of tiny little enclosures all day every day if that is your desire. But that is NOT what is required to properly care for these animals in captivity.

Keep it simple. Really...this is not rocket science, it's a pet hobby. It's people like you with an intolerable pentient for making the easiest things about the hobby seem incredibly difficult that keep so many new keepers and would-be lovers of snakes at bay and out of the hobby. Get over yourself. You aren't saving the world, you aren't solving any major crises, and you certainly aren't doing anything that the average 12 year old kid couldn't do with a little bit of information and knowledge. It simply is not as difficult as you would like to think.

As well...the North American colubrids are the ones most commonly kept as pets in this hobby not only in North America, but pretty much around the world.

Adamanteus-

I disagree. The term "standard colubrid care" is a term widely used to describe the captivce care of the largest grouping of colubrids available in the pet trade. I've seen it, heard it, and used myself hundreds of times. Unless this is the only forum you frequent...you've seen it too.

As regards "care"...why would it reflect a section of a group of animals that are not available in the pet trade? Why would the term "care" bring to mind ANYTHING other than a group that were readily available as pets?

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the benefit of insulting someone who is trying to help, nor do I see the point in trying to turn an easy hobby into something only a special few can do.

You two are the moderators of a world wide forum, yea? Than you should be going out of your way to bring people IN to the hobby, not push them away. Telling people they aren't ready to rescue an animal that could be introuble just because they asked a question is HORRIBLY arrogant. Telling people that caring for a kingsnake is not even close to caring for a cornsnake, and turning an EASY hobby into a science that only a few elite people can participate in is HORRIBLY arrogant. It is THAT arrogance in THIS hobby that keep so many people away from it, and frankly, I think you both are doing HUGE disservice TO this hobby THROUGH your arrogance.

C'est la vie...it's your forum, do what you will. I would MUCH rather spend my time and energy with a group of people that care more about the fun and learning and teaching and sharing that this hobby is supposed to be about than an arrogant bunch of wannabe scientists that seem bent opn proving they are somehow better than everyone else simply because they know a few big words.

guidofatherof5-
I wish you the best. I fully support you in getting this animal and actually trying to gain some knowledge and make a difference. Too many people are willing to turn a blind eye or turn this hobby into a science to see that what you are doing would be the right thing. Go for it. I go by "KingofColubrids" and "tyflier" in MANY forums that are not nearly as arrogant as this one is. Look me up if you need a hand...

Later y'all. I need to go vomit from the stench of arrogance and false knowledge now...

[adamanteus]

It is that very stench that keeps me away from most other forums...... Forums where everyone is a self-professed expert, and the degree of knowledge is measured by the quantity (or value) of snakes they have acquired. Where novices are ignored, or given two-word answers. Where if the answer isn't known, they will invent one or use a 'catch-phrase' to cover their ignorance. Where everyone is a 'reptile rescue'.

With no other group of animals would a novice be encouraged to take on 'any species'. So many times I have seen these rescuers swamped by huge numbers of unwanted animals, which they have neither the money, knowledge or equipment to care for. So many times I have seen the animals seized from these well-meaning but ill-advised people. Very subtle of you to pass over my comment about huge pythons in tiny enclosures, by the way. You know this to be the truth.... this is what happens, it is the unfortunate fate of most of the amateur reptile rescues I have seen.

I don't think I was in any way insulting to Steve, I simply stated my opinion, which is what a forum is all about. If you post on it, someone is bound to disagree. You speak of arrogance, but you have brought to this forum a degree of arrogance and aggression which we haven't seen for a long time. Some people do react that way when others disagree with them. They resort to insults and name calling.

This forum isn't, and never will be elitist. It welcomes, with equal warmth, experienced keepers and novices alike. Maybe you should spend a little more time reading the forum, and gather some experience of us, before you judge us.

[tyflier]

This thread, and your response, along with Stefan-A, are the very definitions of arrogance. The guy came and asked for help on caring for a Cali King...arguably one of the easiest snakes to care for in captivity. Why is it one of the easiest? Because they thrive in a variety of natural conditions...like most North American Colubrids, ironically enough. This fact alone makes there general care requirements EXTREMELY easy to meet.

We aren't talking about special needs animals. We aren't talking about large pythons and boas. We aren't talking about specialists and habitat-specific animals. We are talking about the "garbage disposals" of the snake world when we talk about *most* N.A. colubrids. They absolutely THRIVE under such an incredibly diverse natural environment, that a general average can be given to them in captivity and they can thrive and be incredibly healthy. This is why they are found throughout the country, AND why they are so popular as pets.

Telling someone that simply because they don't know how to care for a Cali king means they aren't experienced enough to rescue one is arrogant, no matter how many differnt ways you try to paint it. The answer to the question is simple...about 80-85*F on one side and room temp on the other of a 20long aquairum. 50% relative humidity. Two hides, a water dish and a suitable substrate. Feed it about once a week. It will thrive. Any other "issues" that come up need to be dealt with as they arise, certainly. But those issues WON'T be husbandry related if you follow those basic and easy guidelines.

Ironically enough...those same guidelines can be applied to almost all N.A. Colubrids, but especially to the ones falling into the Lampropeltis, Pituophis, and Pantherophis genera of snakes...which make up the largest percentage of the snakes available in the pet trade. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Do I get aggressive? No...I stand up for myself. I also stand up for others. Does that make some people uncomfortable? Probably, but that really isn't my problem.

Quite simply...you failed in your efforts. The responses coming from yourself and Stefan-A in this thread are INCREDIBLY arrogant. I agree with you on self-professed experts being a detriment. I agree that newbies and experienced keepers alike should be welcome in the hobby. I agree with you that there are far too many forums floating around the net where those things don't happen.

Problem is...you and Stefan-A, in THIS thread, are doing the exact same disservice to the hobby. You two are acting in the exact same manner, and treating the original poster in the same manner you profess to despise.

There really is no reason for Stefan-A to have been arguing the way he has been. Heck, half of his arguments, I have to wonder if he even understood what was being said, because it doesn't seem so. Either that or he is following definitions that are so strict they don't allow room for communication. That's arrogant.

Forcing people interested in a HOBBY to follow the strictest of scientific definitions during a non-scientific discussion is arrogant. And it is elitist. Tell yourself whatever you'd like to feel better about it, but that is a fact.

Have I seen this attitude displayed elsewhere on this forum? Yea...I have. Guess by whom? Does it run rampant on this forum as it does on others? Nope. But it is still present. And it still rears it's ugly head from time to time. At least there are only a couple people that do it, though...

As for your reptile rescues comments and the like...I agree with you. I agree that there should be Regulations put in place for the operation of these facilities. Where I live...there are. Before I can open MY rescue, I need to have a state Propogation Permit, a resident Vet Tech on staff, and I need to have a state sanctioned Rehabilition License and Certification. We're still working on it, but we're getting there. My propogation permit will be finalized in January of '09. My partner and girlfriend is in the process of reciveing her Vet Tech certification and rehabilitation certification. Together we will open a rehab center for NATIVE species and a living museum for educational purposes. And you can bet that every person that walks through the door will be treated with respect, regardless of how many big words they know, how long they have been keeping snakes, or how many different species of obscure snake they have dealt with...until they no,longer deserve that respect.

Yea, it bothers me to see people taking in more animals than they can handle, and not knowing the difference between rescuing and forcing an animal to live. Yea, it bothers me to see people jump into the hobby without a real understanding of these animals. Yea, it pains me to see people having owned snakes for all of 2 months trying to breed them. So what. It happens, and there isn't a whole lot I can do about it except shake my head, and wait to read the inevitable "My snake died" thread.

Yes, it bothers me to see people caring for high-maintenance animals improperly. Yes, I would like it to stop. But treating people with disdain for their efforts, and forcing people into a battle of definitions and semantics for no reason other than to appear more knowledgeable isn't a solution to the problem. In fact, it only perpetuates the problem by turning beginners and would-be beginners against us. It turns people away from the hobby and makes them afraid to ask questions.

You can say what you want about me, and you can pat yourself on the back all you care to. But this thread is NOT what you intended this forum to be. This thread, and the attitudes displayed by yourself and Stefan-A are precisely the attitudes you claim to be so against.

C'est la vie. It's your forum. Do with it as you will...

[adamanteus]

It would appear you haven't read my posts in this thread, Chris. I already stated quite clearly that Cali Kings are simple to care for. The point I plainly made was that if a person does not understand this simple care, it might be a mistake to advertise his or her willingness to take in 'any unwanted snakes'.... (not my words!) In which case we very probably are taking about large pythons and boas or animals with special husbandry needs. I certainly never suggested he wasn't fit to take in this Cali King.
I stand by what I said... if a person doesn't have the knowledge or experience to care for a Cali King, it would be unwise to offer husbandry services for any unwanted snake.
As far as I can glean from the rest of your post, you seem to agree with me on all other matters.
I have re-read my posts, and I fail to find the arrogance you accuse me of. If I have offended Steve in the way I worded my reply, I apologise to him for that, but I stand by the content of the reply.
And by the way.... it's not my forum! It belongs to us all.

[tyflier]

It would appear you haven't read my posts in this thread, Chris. I already stated quite clearly that Cali Kings are simple to care for. The point I plainly made was that if a person does not understand this simple care, it might be a mistake to advertise his or her willingness to take in 'any unwanted snakes'.... (not my words!) In which case we very probably are taking about large pythons and boas or animals with special husbandry needs. I certainly never suggested he wasn't fit to take in this Cali King.
I stand by what I said... if a person doesn't have the knowledge or experience to care for a Cali King, it would be unwise to offer husbandry services for any unwanted snake.
As far as I can glean from the rest of your post, you seem to agree with me on all other matters.
I have re-read my posts, and I fail to find the arrogance you accuse me of. If I have offended Steve in the way I worded my reply, I apologise to him for that, but I stand by the content of the reply.
And by the way.... it's not my forum! It belongs to us all.
**emphasis mine
The answers you gave him were the only thing I had a problem with. With the bolded statement...you're a man of honor.

I took your statements to be more "inclusive" than a simple comment on the "any unwanted snake" aspect of his advertisement. That would be MY shortcoming, and for that I apologize.

I would point out that having an advertisement like that gives him the option to accept or deny whatever is offered him. And coming here for help before accepting a Cal king shows that he WANTS to do the right thing. He deserves credit for his effort, IMO.

[Charlet_2007]

ok if they don't know how to take care of a King snake then they've got to start somewhere right? How did you learn how to take care of garters? by learning and asking people for help am i right? At least he didnt get the king snake then was like OH crap what am i doing now.. He actully asked for help..

And you 2 fighting/arguing on here is probably not helping him or anyone on this site.. Both of your all points have been made time and time and time again.. Lets all agree to disagree OK? :)

[adamanteus]

He deserves credit for his effort, IMO.

Undoubtedly.....


"I don't doubt that your motives are honourable (and commendable) Steve. It just concerns me that you could easily be saddled with a snake you can't even identify, much less care for, by placing such an ad. Don't forget, by making this offer you are giving people the impression that you can provide better care for the animal than they can...... If you have no knowledge or experience of this animal (whereas they do) this impression would be misleading. I speak from experience..... I did a similar thing myself, years ago. The first snake to come into my care was a European Cat Snake (Telescopus fallax) with mouth-rot. I failed... utterly."

And I already told him so.....

"Of course I respect your opinion, and I respect what you're trying to do...."

[Stefan-A]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the benefit of insulting someone who is trying to helpYet you seem to go out of your way to do it. I wonder if you appreciate the fact that I haven't been returning your insults?


Forcing people interested in a HOBBY to follow the strictest of scientific definitions during a non-scientific discussion is arrogant.Strictest? How about even the loosest definitions?

As for the rest of that inane drivel you've posted; Opinion noted.

[jitami]

Ok, Group Hug :D :p :D

Yeah, I know, not going to happen... BUT I would hate to lose the knowledge of any of you... I don't want to track anyone down on another forum... I want to come here, to our comfy little home, and read what each of you has to offer, to share, to teach. Can we simply drop this one and start anew?

[Stefan-A]

Can we simply drop this one and start anew?
If it's okay with the other participants, sure.

[adamanteus]

Ok, Group Hug :D :p :D

Yeah, I know, not going to happen... BUT I would hate to lose the knowledge of any of you... I don't want to track anyone down on another forum... I want to come here, to our comfy little home, and read what each of you has to offer, to share, to teach. Can we simply drop this one and start anew?


Good call, Tami!:D
I don't think anyone was actually going to leave the forum over this one, but yes... let's change the subject.
To be honest, I think it's a good thing to 'clear the air' sometimes. If anyone has dispute with me or the things I say, I would like to hear about it. If i think I'm right I'll argue, but if I'm wrong I will admit as much.....
I was wrong once..... see, I thought I was mistaken but it turned out that I wasn't!:rolleyes:

[tyflier]

Listen...Opinions often get heated. This hobby is full of passion, if nothing else. Whenever people with equal passion have a disagreement...it's bound to happen.

Obviously, Stefan-A and I aren't going to agree on this one. He's made his points, I've made mine...it's really fair enough on either side to walk away from the whole thing.

I always try to argue the points and not the person, and I'm usually succesful. If I've taken anything out of context, I apologise, and am ready to move on to both Adamanteus and Stefan-A.

Water under the bridge...

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Wow! That was just great! Even I felt the adrenalin!

Now that this thread seems to be embracing calmer shores, I guess I'll throw in a few pennies.

First, I agree that novices should not take in unfamiliar animals, however any good-hearted attempt to save an animal from a miserable existence supercedes that continued existence and usually implies the rescuer may take the extra steps to provide it with a better existence (...not always...). guidofatherof5, I commend your efforts and your willingness to learn.

I only have about 200 posts to my name on this forum, but in that time I have come to respect James and Stefan for their very informative and often direct posts. It's important that we express our opinions! It's vital that we should sometimes show our passion regarding a topic, for if we don't, then we should not be in the hobby. For those who naturally don't get all heated, peacemakers are always welcome. :)

I do have to say I agree with both Stefan and tyflier (how do I get real names? Is it Chris?) on varying issues.

I keep 2 Cali Kings, a Mexican Black, a Pacific Gopher and a variety of Corns, and I have to say their basic care is the same (feeding, temps, humidity, etc), and they are all healthy. Where general care is concerned, these 3 genuses have similar requirements. I will not venture further with percentages regarding the care of other colubrids. Thamnophis care, for instance, unless you are dealing with species hooked on mice (okay maybe not), have a completely different care requirements.

It is here that I must mention my own bias... But first I have to ask: tyflier, are your 50 snakes all in @ least 20 gallon enclosures, or are they large breeder boxes? I don't want to assume. I have been having big issues with corn and king breeders as of late (myself included), and have been downsizing my own operations due to the fact that there are too many of these snakes on the market already and.... (very important question) I am perplexed by the question "What is quality of life?" What is basic care? And what is specific care? Shouldn't all captive care be specific? Shouldn't all animals, if kept captive, be entitled to the best quality of life. I often wonder at what point do some of us herp fanatics say "No, no more new snakes!" I found that the more I acquired, the less I appreciated each specimen, or at least did not have the time. I personally believe that if we choose to take in an animal, "micro-managing" is essential, no matter how easy or difficult the species. Anything else, in my heart, is negligence. The animal is captive; there it has no choice. Is basic care enough? Enough for whom? Our schedule? These are ethical issues that PETA loves to use against the hobby. Unfortunately, it's often amateurs or the blatantly ignorant whose mistakes add fuel to their fire.

I commend all of you who posted on this thread; I am glad that the "opinionators" of this thread (Bless you! though I am not religious) stopped adding more bricks to the apparent wall that was materializing. This has been and still is a wonderful forum where both amateurs and professionals can communicate. I, myself, often post threads that are a bit more scientific than many of the general threads. I often assert my opinions. I don't believe I am an arrogant person. Perceptions however are a ------! We all come from different walks of life; we are all at different stages of learning. So, we are often apt towards some tunnel vision, no matter how minute. Let us be reminded of that and be correspondingly civil.

Steve

[adamanteus]

Steve...... ever the diplomat! Nice post.:D

[drache]

Steve - thanks for that post
I kind of stood back during the heated part of the debate, and noted that all parties had good points
there is something you brought up that I've been thinking about a lot recently

I am perplexed by the question "What is quality of life?" What is basic care? And what is specific care? Shouldn't all captive care be specific? Shouldn't all animals, if kept captive, be entitled to the best quality of life. I often wonder at what point do some of us herp fanatics say "No, no more new snakes!" I found that the more I acquired, the less I appreciated each specimen, or at least did not have the time. I personally believe that if we choose to take in an animal, "micro-managing" is essential, no matter how easy or difficult the species. Anything else, in my heart, is negligence. The animal is captive; there it has no choice.
I find that as much as I would like more snakes - specific ones - I am at the point where I have enough for both their and my good somehow
perhaps the snakes don't care if I never look at them as long as their needs are met, but what's the point? after a while I don't like taking care of animals I don't get to spend time with.
when I foster animals for the rescue, it's different
I know I'm not keeping them and I want to heap extra good care of them so they get a good shot at being adopted, and yes - sometimes the space they get is less than what they ideally should have, but always more than they're been accustomed to to and more than what the rescue can offer them, because they're full
sometimes giving an animal a safe space to recover is the best we can do, even if we know that it's not quite enough - I mean, if they had you locked in a latrine without fresh water for a few years or months, even a small clean room with fresh water would be an improvement while you're waiting for your garden apartment

[tyflier]

Steven-

I do my absolute best to assure quality of care for my animals. They are all kept in appropriately sized enclosures, and between myself, my daughter, my girlfriend, and my friends...they all get held and loved on. My snakes are not simply breeders, they are pets. I have many in display enclosures and many in racks, but they are all well cared for. And they are all afforded opportunities for stimulation and excercise, handling, and "hanging out", at least as much as they care to.

My snakes are used for breeding purposes, but they are pets above anything else...