Warning! Problem with perch

[guidofatherof5]

In a never ending quest for safe food for my Radix family I found(according to the internet) Ocean Perch as not containing any Thiaminase. I purchased a 1lb package of skin-on fillets at Walmart. I thawed out a piece and cut it up for a group(29) of my 5 month old babies. They loved it and filled up. I left the house for about 1 1/2 hours. When I returned I checked on that group of snakes. I had snakes puking everywhere. Some looked to be in convulsions. I immediately started praying and pulled the worst 8 snakes out. Not sure what to do I just kept them together in the middle of the livingroom. Some were able to regurgitate and they immediately acted better. This is the first time I've been glad my kids were with their mother. They would not have been able to handle it.
At this point it doesn't look like I'm going to lose any of them. I have never had anything like this happen. I did notice that the fillets are a product of China and processed there also. I hope that this turns out okay for my babies. Natural death and things out of my control are hard enough to handle but because of my actions. That would be terrible. I'm not even going to eat this stuff. Has anyone ever had this kind of reaction when a different food was fed? Some insight would be great.
I just found another in trouble. It was trying to puke. I held it, head down and let gravity assist. It was able to get it out. I won't be sleeping much tonight.

[infernalis]

Awe Steve, I don't know what to say.

My thoughts are with you.

Good luck

[Lori P]

Steve, I'm speechless. Sending lots of prayers and hopes that they are all ok.

[olive oil]

That is so awful! I hope the little guys pull through it ok. I so enjoy hearing about them and, I'm so glad your daughter is not at home!

[Snake lover 3-25]

awww how terrible!!!! i hope they are ok.....:(

[ssssnakeluvr]

the fish normally would be safe....I would ditch the fish...something else is wrong with them.... I had a situation years ago...lived in a small town in Idaho. the store was run by an idiot....would repackage hot dogs and sell them after the expiration date...even tho the vendor would replace them free..... I bought some orange roughy....cut some chunks up and fed my garters....saved the rest and was gonna have it for dinner....in half an hour the snakes were in convulsions....something bad with the fish...rotten, called the health dept, said not to eat it, but sucky thing is they wouldn't test it cuz no humans got sick eating it. if I had eaten it, I might not be here today!! something in the processing is bad...probably contaminated fish, spoiled. garters can eat carrion in the wild so it takes some bad bacteria to cause that. good luck with the little ones and ditch the fish!

[guidofatherof5]

The pukefest continues. Looks like food poisoning. To watch these poor little ones reminds me of the time I had problems with some bad pizza. I feel for them. So far I haven't lose any, yet. Will keep a constant eye on them tonight.

[anji1971]

It could be that the fish was just bad, and I don't particularly like to pick on any one country, BUT.....
I had an incident with a snake after feeding salmon from China, and I'm not convinced that there wasn't some weird chemical in there. She didn't regurgitate the fish, but she suffered from funny tremors within a couple hours of eating it, and they lasted for a couple of days.
Incidentally, my son has had reactions to candy made in China, and with all the latest news about melamine in milk, I can't say I'd trust ingesting any food from that country. The safety standards just aren't there, and I find that scary.

[guidofatherof5]

Well, everyones still hanging in there. Here's a few of my sick kids. I think they're kinda like us. Once we throw-up the bad stuff we feel a whole lot better. My concerns is for the ones who haven't chucked it yet. Hopefully, there systems can take what ever it is that made them sick. I'm going to the manager at Walmart to see if they will pay all or part of the price to get this fish analyzed. I need to know what's going on. I need answers. Must be the Cop in me. Not sure if I'll get anywhere but "If you don't make any calls, you won't make any sales". They'll have to tell me no more than once to get it across to me.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/Sick_kids1.jpg

[anji1971]

Aww, poor things..........
Hope they all feel better soon!:)

[reptile3]

Oh gosh, i am sorry to hear this.. I hope they are all ok!! I would get rid of the fish.

Keeping you & your little ones, in my thoughts

[guidofatherof5]

At this time I have 3 babies that I am worried about. It's going to be a long night. I'll post first thing in the morning or as the situation develops. Thanks for all your prayers, thoughts and concerns.

[GartersRock]

Oh how horrible! :(:( It's this kind of thing I am so afraid of. Will be praying for you and the little ones! :(

[guidofatherof5]

The hardest part is sitting here watching these little babies of mine go through this. The ones that were able to get it out seem no worse for the wear. I have tried to help a few by holding them face down in the hopes that it will aid there regurgitation. Some it helps others it doesn't. I just don't know what else to do! Sitting back waiting for the outcome isn't my style. I'm suppose to help, not be a bystander.

[guidofatherof5]

It's after 2am and I'm still worried about 3 of them. I don't think there is anything I can do but wait. I keep finding fish chunks. That's a good thing at this point. Going to try and get some sleep and see how things look in a couple of hours.

[guidofatherof5]

I'm holding the one who seem to be the sickest and weakest. Hardly any movement. Very slow respiration. I also notice the snake itself has a bad odor. Not a Radix odor. What ever this stuff is it's powerful. This is not what I invisioned for this little Radix. I hope this isn't a sign of what's to come.
The fish itself seemed okay. No strange odor and its texture and feel was like other fish. The meat was firm and didn't appear to have been thawed repeatedly. The meat came off the skin like normal. I don't seem to be suffering any ill effects from handling it. I will have it tested even if Walmart won't help. It's the least I owe these littleones for the pain I've put some of them through.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/sick_one.jpg

[Stefan-A]

It wasn't salted, was it?

[guidofatherof5]

No. The package say fish only.

[Sid]

I hope these last ones make it OK, Guido.

[drache]

oh man, Steve, what a horrible thing to have happen
I sure hope every last one of your babies fully recovers - quite worried about that last one

[Lori P]

Steve, I woke up thinking about your babies. I hope everyone pulled through...

[infernalis]

Hope Steve has something positive to say:eek:

[guidofatherof5]

EVERYONE STILL ALIVE! Some are still effected and down but not out. I think it will be another 24 hours before there you of the woods. The enclosure smells terrible. I finally got some sleep and of course I had dreams about this situation. Even in sleep the trouble followed me. Well, it's off to Walmart. Time to make my word come out right and not close any doors before it all begins. Wish me luck. Hopfully, the manager will see the connection and the importants to knowing what happened, since some people eat raw fish. If it is bacterial, imagine if a small child were to ingest some of it.
I am so fortunate I didn't feed everyone. I can imagine the outcome for my newborns.
I've decided not to turn all the fish back over to Walmart. You know, the old "everything checked out fine" routine. "It must have been something else". I'm having an independent Lab. test it also. I'm sure we all want the truth. Bacteria, heavy metels, caustic chemicals. We eat this stuff to and Chinia doesn't have my trust. What is it called, "Prop 29". This product contains lead and you should wash your hands after contact with it. After learning about the damage that lead causes the human body and billions of dollars cleaning it out of our invironment now we accept it back in our product because China still uses it in manufacturing. That's so stupid. Enough, I'm off to Walmart. I'll let you know what kind of response I get.

[drache]

well I'm glad everyone's pulled through so far
I hope the ones that are still affected will make a full recovery

[GartersRock]

So glad to hear everyone is still ok!! Let us know the results and still praying for your babies. :(

[Zephyr]

Sending prayers your way. ):
I'd think the stuff is either expired or tainted.
My advice; Run out and get some electrolyte water. You don't want them getting dehydrated.

[duh duh duh]

let us know what happened with Wallmart

[Zephyr]

The Walmart escapades should be interesting.
Good luck.

[guidofatherof5]

The website was down for a while. Thanks Jason for letting me know what was happening.

I haven't lost anyone. Some are still fighting. I went to Walmart and asked to speak to the store manager. What was I thinking! Sunday morning at 9am. The manager wasn't there. I was then approached by a lady who asked if she could possibly help. I explained the situation for beginning to end. "Hello, hello is this thing on" That's what I felt like. She went into the fact the the distributor is in charge of recalling a product. I explained that it was a Walmart Brand. She then stated that she wasn't a manager but would leave a message for him. She then told me I could get a refund and I could leave the product with them and they would dispose of it. I asked her how we would every know what was wrong with it if they threw it away. She just gave me a blank look. I informed her that the issue wasn't money but the possible health problems with the fish. I told her to have the manager contact me. I then gave her one of my business cards from the Sheriff's Dept. She must have thought I could be appeased by giving me my money back. I'll get answers even if it cost me to have the fish tested. Two of my scrubs are still fighting this stuff. One will be called Rocky if he survives. It's been 5 hours since I was at Walmart and no one has called. Did a complete clean out of the enclosure and sanitized everything. I think the next 24 hours will be the real test. Thanks for all your prayers and concerns. I'm going to get a little sleep before my kids get back from their mothers.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

ohhhh my gosh! I am so sorry to hear it but I am so glad everyone's still hanging in there! have all of them thrown up yet? If there are any that still have it in them I personally would purge it from them manually. I've had to do it before with two baby garters that somehow ate peices of corncob even though they were not fed on their corncob bedding, and once with a baby that had major lower digestive issues and eventually died from being unable to digest properly. With babies it is pretty easy, I just kinda turned the snake over, took my thumb and put it behind the lump, and gently, slowly roll my thumb upwards towards the head. you might want to consider doing it to get it out of them, at least I would do it. If you're not comfortable... then just hope and pray that they are okay!!! I care for litters each year and I know how attached you get to them! Each year I always am sad for the ones that don't make it, even when I know it is coming. But to have something like this happen would devastate me, terrify me! My heart goes out to you!

[guidofatherof5]

Looks like I have 3 that are still having problems. About every 30 minutes they get a warm bath. Trying to keep there core temp up.. Also hoping the warm water will stimulate pooping. They seem to have moments of normality. Then they seem to zone out. I hope there livers aren't being damaged. Not sure if time without death is a good thing. Seeing so many of them coming out of it keeps me from jumping the gun and putting these down. I will have a hard time putting them down. They have been with me from birth and I love them all. I do know that time may come and I will do the right thing.

[adamanteus]

I guess there's a lesson here for us all......
Maybe it's best not to experiment with untried food items, especially fish, when so many known safe types are so easily available. And if we are trying out a new food, maybe try it on just one or two snakes.
I hope they all pull through okay.:)

[guidofatherof5]

Looking back on this situation you are right. I just didn't see any of this coming. I chose Ocean Perch for the fact it didn't have any Thiaminase and was on the safe list. I trusted our Gov. agency to check these items before they came into our country. I trusted Walmart to have a product that was safe, since it was for sale for human consumption. I trusted China to have safe products. I haven't had any die, yet. I hope this situation doesn't impair my little scrubs future health. In retrospect it's all so simple. This was the first and last time for me.

[infernalis]

Steve, This could have happened to anyone here, It was through you sharing this with us that may prevent this from happening again.

[duh duh duh]

just keep doing what you're doing.

They are going through a rough patch but they are getting the best shot that they could possibly get at surviving it because of your husbandry practices. Mother nature is really impressive at times. Just keep doing what you're doing and let the garters take care of the rest.

[guidofatherof5]

Almost everyone in that enclosure ate(Worms) tonight. I have two that are still on the edge. I think that's because they didn't throw-up. They drift in and out but for the last couple of hours they've been more normal.
No call from Walmart. I'll be stopping by there on my break. I'll have to see what attitudes are like. I'll be contacting one of our local testing labs to get a price on a screen of the fish. I'm going to sit with these scrubs for a while to see how they react to their meal. Then I need to get some sleep. It's been a long 36 hours. How in the world am I going to let these little ones go this spring. I should be able to take care of 85 of them, right?:)

[drache]

85???
did I miss something?
you don't have 85 babies, or do you?

[guidofatherof5]

70 babies and 15 Juv and adults. It's kinda like the Boy's Town for Radixs. Just checked the enclosure and it looks like everyone is doing find. Rocky made it through the night and seems to be back to normal. Thank you everyone for your support through this difficult learning experience. Looks like the kids are going to make it.

[infernalis]

That is good news Steve.:D

[anji1971]

Oh, what an ordeal.............I hope they continue to improve and are all fine by the time it's over. Poor babies..........
Good luck with Walmart. I trust them to help you as much as I trust food from China. But maybe someone there has some integrity.
I say do the testing yourself, so you can rest easy knowing what happened.

[guidofatherof5]

That's sound advise. Thanks. I'll post to the costs and whether or not Walmart is going to help. I'm not holding my breath!

[guidofatherof5]

Spoke to an independent lab. $100 to check for bacteria. $15 for a common check and then addition cost for others. $40 for Mercury and $13 for additional metals. Still no word from Walmart.

[jitami]

Wow... what a weekend... sorry you had to go through all of that!!! Glad the babies are recovering nicely for you, though! Good job pulling them through!!!

[guidofatherof5]

Walmart. Spoke to the mamager of the food dept. He was concerned and showed an interest in my problem. An hour later he call and stated he would have to file it as a insurance clain under product liability. He stated they would need the product back so that it could be tested. I first told him that my concern was the issued would be swept under the rug once I gave the product back. He said he understood my concerns. I also told him I wasn't out to make a huge deal out of this, involving insurance companies and such wasn't what I was after. I had hoped that Walmart would pay for or assist in paying for the testing of the fish. He said this was the only option open for him. I told him I would keep the fish and have it tested on my own from an independent 3rd party. He though that was a good idea and hoped I would call him with the results. Might has to wait until after Christmas since I have to buy for 5 kids and I still have to make payment on the new car I bought my little scrubs.Check out my new post on that matter. It's call "Feeling Guilty"
What an adventure. *All for the love of the Radix*

[guidofatherof5]

Bad news, Rocky lost his fight. I had to put him down. Too much suffering with no hope of recovery.

[Snake lover 3-25]

so sorry........ what happened???:(

[olive oil]

Oh that is awful.:(
So sorry.

[adamanteus]

Damn! Sorry to hear that, Steve.:(

[guidofatherof5]

He went into a convulsion. Mouth open, very rigid. Horrible sight.

[ssssnakeluvr]

real sorry to hear that.... keep us posted on the test results...when you get them. i am curious...

[infernalis]

Sorry to hear about Rocky.:(

[Stefan-A]

A real shame, Steve. :(

[Lori P]

Oh no, so so sorry Steve. :(

[guidofatherof5]

Hoping to get the fish out to the Lab in the next week or so. They tell me it will be about a week before the result are ready. I'll let you know what they find. My daughter(Gabby) is not having an easy time with the loss of Rocky. I love to see her concern and feelings for these littleones.

[jitami]

So sorry Steve... please give Gabby a hug from me and let her know it's a hug from California from someone who loves baby snakes just like she does and feels sad about Rocky's death, too :(

[reptile3]

Oh Steve, I am sorry to hear about Rocky!! sending my thoughts & prayers your way!!!:(

[guidofatherof5]

I need your advice. Since I will be taking the Ocean perch out to be tested I need to be sure I test for the right or at least as close to the right contaminants. The fish only needed 10 minutes of thaw time in cold water. The vaccuum packed fillet stayed sealed. The fish smelled, felt and cut like any other fish I have served.
First, let me describe the symtoms suffered by my scrubs:
Feeding went very well. Most everyone ate and showed no signs that the fish had a problem. I left for about 1 1/2 hours so I don't know how soon the problems started. When I arrived home and look in the aquarium, some snakes were regurgitating, others were rolling and some were in a violant convulsion. Once they regurgitated they appeared normal. The ones that didn't throw-up sat coiled and looked lifeless. I only noticed respiration(no tongue flicking). When I tried to move them, they made no attempts to move or get away on there own. Of these 3, Rocky seemed the worst. He would appear normal and would then go into a convulsion(ridged, mouth open, then back arching. No toogue flicking and very shallow respiration). This would last 1-2 minutes and then he would seem fine. This cycled for approximately 1 hour. He then seemed fine and I thought thing were okay. I sleep in the livingroom to keep an eye on them. Shortly after turning out the lights I heard the sounds of a possible fight in the enclosure. It was Rocky having another convulsion in his hide box. This occured 5 more times during the night. By 9am the next morning he had been fine for over 3 hours. I checked on him throughout the day and he was okay. The next morning my daughter checked on him first and found him close to death. Mouth open arched, sunken stomach. During all these episodes he had a bad odor. One that I had never smelled before. The closest thing I could compair it to would be decaying flesh(one of the bad skills I aquired as a Deputy).
I want to do the right tests and not waste my money. Any help with suggestions of what to check for would be great. Bacterial, Chemical, Heavy metals? The fish was wild caught, processed and packaged in China.