Shortheads in captivity?

[infernalis]

Anyone here ever try to keep a shorthead? (Thamnophis brachystoma)

Their range is within a short drive of home for me.:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

well I know here in PA, they are heavily protected. I would check NY regulations :eek:

[infernalis]

That kid in Pittsburgh that feeds them to ring necks said he could mail me one or a pair.

That's why I asked.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Yea I saw that, they have a very small range overall and here in PA they are totally off limits. He is catching them, freezing them, and feeding them to his ringnecked snakes. Just because there are a lot in HIS area does not make it okay. If you are going to breed snakes as feeders that is one thing, but to go and and grab any happy healthy garter snake you see in the wild is just plain wrong, let alone a protected species. I wouldn't take wild mice from a nest to feed to my snakes and I only use a WC salamander or frog if I have a snake that is refusing everything else!

I would just be careful, if he takes them from PA, they are illegally collected and that's a danger to both him and you! I don't know about any other states (southern NY maybe?) regulations concerning them.

[infernalis]

I'll have to look into legalities, Not worth losing the whole collection and facing stiff fines just to have a shorthead or two.

[duh duh duh]

so....

we have someone poaching a threatened species and using it as a feeder?

And you haven't contacted the authorities...why?

help me out here.

That type of behavior is what threatens the hobby and is 180 degrees opposite from proper husbandry.

[infernalis]

Duh Duh Duh - This guy posts pictures on the "small terrestrial snakes" forum at KS of his ringnecks eating shortheads.

Photos all over his web site too.

[adamanteus]

Let's make sure he never comes here, okay? If you guys who know him, see him here, let me know please.

[infernalis]

No worries there James, many of us know his arrogant arse.

He won't come here.......

He has been "Approached" a few times to find better food for his ringnecks, and he never answers nice.

[adamanteus]

No worries there James, many of us know his arrogant arse.

He won't come here.......

He has been "Approached" a few times to find better food for his ringnecks, and he never answers nice.

Could you PM me a link to his website, Wayne?

[Zephyr]

I'd be interested in this link too.
I know quite a few people in the Michigan DNR and other wildlife management facilities... Hint hint...

[Stefan-A]

Found him. Yeah, he does seem like "a bit" of a douche.

[adamanteus]

Thanks Wayne.
I have sent an explanetory e-mail and your link to the Pennsylvania Game Commision and the State Wildlife Management Agency. I also filled in their 'Turn in a Poacher' form.

Nice of him to provide his own photographic evidence.

[Stefan-A]

Good. Excellent.

[Zephyr]

My other advice...
Save the pics. He may try to take them down.

[adamanteus]

My other advice...
Save the pics. He may try to take them down.

Good call, Kyle.
The poacher form asks if the offender has distinguishing marks or tattoos..... this guy has his surname tattooed all the way up his forearm!
Get out of that!:D

[Stefan-A]

Well, you can always hope that he tries to remove it. ;)

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

thanks for getting into and and helping taking action... I was really not sure how to approach it, who to contact, and what to say... PA is confusing because the fish and boating and department of agriculture both do different things concerning reptiles and it's hard to figure out WHO to contact regarding certain issues.

Should I pitch in and fill one of these out as well? where is a link where i may do so? :D

[adamanteus]

Should I pitch in and fill one of these out as well? where is a link where i may do so? :D

Pennsylvania Game Commission - State Wildlife Management Agency: Turn in a poacher (http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=460&q=152533)

Go for it, Shannon!:)

[Zephyr]

lol
Flood the inbox with complaints. I like our strategy. :)

[infernalis]

That will teach me to leave the PC for 15 minutes!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

where does he live? I need that for the form!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

there. I filled out the form and turned his butt in! anyone else who could help out as well, it would be appreciated. He is also poaching smooth green snakes, ANOTHER protected PA species.

[Scaley.Jade]

hey i know i dont knwo the guy but im happy to fill in the form or let james do it in my name

[infernalis]

there. I filled out the form and turned his butt in! anyone else who could help out as well, it would be appreciated. He is also poaching smooth green snakes, ANOTHER protected PA species.


Little Limons:mad:

[Loren]

That will teach me to leave the PC for 15 minutes!
Yeah, I've been a bit entertained by how quickly this went from a captive care thread to a catch-a-poacher thread. No offense intended to anyone of coarse.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

well... simply put... he should not be allowed to get away with that! And since shortheads are protected (at least in my state) I personally have a major problem with the arrogant response Wayne and I recieved from him upon saying... "why shortheads?"


Oh, and according to him, my finding a solid black red bellied snake was nothing to be excited over in the least... "its just a color morph"... yes, it is indeed a color morph, but a very rare one that has not even been properly studied!

[adamanteus]

according to him, my finding a solid black red bellied snake was nothing to be excited over in the least... !


I never ceases to amaze me how many self-professed experts we have in this hobby..... some of them with several months of experience.:rolleyes:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Wayne made a post about that little snake on KS and The guy totally tried to shut him down... he was like "oh that is nothing special its just a color phase!" and the killer is, if I had offered that snake for sale he'd most likely have been the FIRST to inquire.

[infernalis]

Now I know why my ears were ringing:rolleyes:

[ssssnakeluvr]

this is the site for the guy....

KingPin Reptiles | Mike Fedzen (http://www.kingpinreptiles.com/)

Mike Fedzen....had a hypo shorthead a couple summers ago...thought he was gonna breed it...probably fed it off!!!!!

[GartersRock]

This guy.... Has been driving me ****NUTS!!!!!**** for *forever*!!! No joke! GRR!! :mad::mad: Ug!! Take him down!!! :cool:

[GartersRock]

He has a pic of a ringneck eating a florida blue baby I never noticed.

[GartersRock]

Oh and a BLIZZARD Cal king eating a brown snake! Like it wouldn't TAKE MICE. :mad::mad: He does it just for the heck of it! Some of these snakes I am sure would take rodents.

[Scaley.Jade]

ive filled it in lookin on his site i dont understand why most his pics are snakes eating snakes whyyyyyyyyyyy grr

[infernalis]

I once knew a guy who would house 2 male beta fish together and watch in amusement.

Maybe these guys are related.

[Snake lover 3-25]

same thing with **** and dog fighting...... i don't understand these people........:( it sickens me........


WOOT WOOT GO GUYS!!!!!!!! BURN THAT SUCKER!!!!!!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

did you guys fill it out anonymously? I gave them all my contact information and told them to call me if they needed screen shots or had questions.

[GartersRock]

Someone should take screenshots now in case he decides to remove it.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I already did.

I SS'ed three or four the the images on his website with them captioned.

[infernalis]

I'd hate to have you guys mad at me:eek:

[Scaley.Jade]

then be a good boy lol

[GartersRock]

Mad at you?

[infernalis]

Hypothetical Amanda, As in "on the wrong end of the stick"

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

hahaha, hey, he is asking for it by putting up pictures of his snakes eating a protected species. And besides, there are better, more available food choices for his ringnecks and he KNOWS it, but chooses to ignore it.

[GartersRock]

Oh I get it. :D:D I read it totally wrong. :D

[duh duh duh]

there is no honour in bragging about being a poacher.

If he was feeding them something cute and cuddily that was threatened, the issue would be no different.

[Faunaofthenorth]

wow i havent been on here in a while but i would seriously like to punch this guy in the chin...ive been looking for smooth green snakes for many years and have never found one and yet this guy just throws them in to be slurped up.....grrr

[infernalis]

wow i havent been on here in a while


Welcome back.

Have a seat and stay a while:D

[Faunaofthenorth]

yea so what is the status on this guy...did he get nailed or is it pending still because i looked at his website and....*sigh*....i feel so bad for those snakes

[brain]

The form needs me to fill out County & Township all I know is PA. help

[brain]

Someone should take screenshots now in case he decides to remove it.

I did this also, took all I thought was pertinent to his doings. Pretty dumb or misinformed person. I’m not up on endangered, threatened snakes others than the SF Garter. I would like to be more informed.

It’s events like these that my wife would say “People just don’t know right from wrong these days.”:confused:

[drache]

The form needs me to fill out County & Township all I know is PA. help
I don't know how to do this, but there is a way to find out what physical address his site is registered to

[infernalis]

Pittsburgh, PA 15217

Please don't ask.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have not received any reply or anything from the commission in regards to this matter....... WHYYY! :mad:

[reptile3]

Pittsburgh, PA 15217

Please don't ask.

may I ask?:p

[infernalis]

may I ask?:p

Sure, but I plead the 5th.

[reptile3]

Sure, but I plead the 5th.

I just wanted to bug you!! LOL

[ssssnakeluvr]

Sure, but I plead the 5th.
I'll take a fifth too.....rum please... :rolleyes:

[brain]

Pittsburgh, PA 15217

Please don't ask.

TY i'll try again to dime him out :mad:

[Zephyr]

Pittsburgh, PA 15217

Please don't ask.
I think I know. :P

[annulataarethebest]

I see that I'm a couple years late on defending myself on a public forum where I didn't know people were bashing the hell out of me.

I don't know if any of you know the laws of the state that I live in, but the shorthead garter snake didn't become a Protected Species until just recently (2 years maybe?), and there was no real thrill of feeding a snake to another snake, I was working with regal ringneck snakes at the time and they are snake eaters there is no way around it.

I no longer have any ringneck snakes, or any snake eaters for that matter, and I gave up on looking for snakes locally since there's nothing more than shorthead garters and northern browns around here. For the record, the blizzard cali king that was constricting the brown snake wouldn't take pinkies or even lizards, that brown snake was a last resort move. Also the majority of the pictures on my website in the Various Pics section aren't mine, and most of the pics are of snakes eating, snakes that some people have trouble getting to accept food in captivity. The pic of the shorthead garter snake being eaten by the regal ringneck snake was mine but like I said before, old picture, the shorthead wasn't protected here then.

So, years later, thanks for the bashing guys it was a good welcoming to a site I never saw before.

[RedSidedSPR]

That WAS a pretty fun read :rolleyes:

[annulataarethebest]

Glad it entertained you, I don't understand why people were under the impression I was collecting this species and feeding it to my snakes cause it was fun and I liked killing off some rare snake. the shorthead garter snake will always be the most common snake in my area. Since I was 7 years old looking for snakes the shortheads were a guaranteed find.

I don't know if any of you ever kept shortheads but to respond to the original post before the thread became about me I kept a couple of them here and there through my childhood, they'll only eat worms, they won't switch to fish or mice. In some snakes the dorsal stripe is faded out, usually the snakes are brown with a yellow stripe, I've seen some with yellow stripes, the hypomelanistic specimen I found years ago was a good bit yellowish. It gave birth to 7 normal babies but was pretty skinny after that and didn't really recover. I didn't even know it was gravid.
The babies are about 4 inches long, sometimes 5, they're usually born in August-September. By the time spring rolls around babies born the previous year are usually about 7-8 inches. Unlike the eastern garter snake the shorthead doesn't bite, I've grabbed gravid females or snakes that ate recently and they'll open their mouth at you but won't strike. Probably like 7 years ago I found a shorthead that I assume was Erythristic, it was a red/orange color with a yellow stripe, wasn't even lucky enough to catch that one.
Last year I was considering taking natural pics of some shortheads and their pattern variations since I doubt there's too many pictures of them out there? Ended up deciding not to because of the protected status. Are they all but gone from New York?? Does anybody actually know? I would think that shortheads would just adapt to city life, because that's pretty much how they are in my area, you're gonna find shortheads in large numbers in people's backyards, never really in the woods though. There's one street in particular that's probably a mile long, with grass on side of the road, and a sewage stream on the other side. Boards along either side of that road were a goldmine for finding snakes when I was a little kid. And debris along this set of out of service rail road tracks.
I'm wondering if fish and game still does the population survey? I know I filled out a packet of info back in 2006 maybe, showing how many shorthead garter snakes were actually in my area.

[RedSidedSPR]

That doesn't excuse anything.

[guidofatherof5]

He's explained the situation that occurred over 2 years ago. I don't think he's looking to be excused but is looking for a fair shake on the forum.
It was a bad situation and I too was disturbed with the fact a garter snake was used as food but that was a long time ago.
Obviously people are going to be upset, this is a garter snake forum.

Would love to see some photos of your wild population.

[RedSidedSPR]

yeah, I know.

[Mommy2many]

Welcome to the forum.

[RedSidedSPR]

I reluctantly welcome you...

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Welcome to the forums.

[infernalis]

That doesn't excuse anything.

We have all made errors in judgment, you have too, quite recently in fact.

[RedSidedSPR]

I know. I'm sorry. Welcome to the forum. :)

[drache]

welcome to the forum

[annulataarethebest]

Thanks for the welcomes guys, I never had intentions of pissing people off with feeding pictures, but I do apologize for those of you that I offended. At the time I was kind of fascinated at the fact a ringneck snake's saliva could kill another snake, the pictures should've just been for my own documentation and not posted online.

I'll see what I can do about getting some new brachystoma pics.

[ConcinusMan]

I reluctantly welcome you...

Oh c'mon. The snake was very common to the person locally and he needed snakes to feed his snakes. As was already said, this was also before they were protected.

I would not hesitate to feed a northwestern garter or two, to another snake under similar circumstances. In fact, when I brought my cali kings up from San Diego, they had only eaten lizards and other snakes and wouldn't eat anything else. I fed them northwestern garter snakes because that's all I could get for them to eat. You may not like it, but that's just tough. A lot of people don't like the fact that we feed rodents to our snakes but what do you tell those people that don't like it? You tell them, tough ship. Don't you? Your snake has to eat.

Now that that's all out of the way, I think that annulata has satisfactorily explained the situation.


I know. I'm sorry. Welcome to the forum. :)

That's better. I know it's easy for garter snake lovers to get upset about garters being used for food but that's nature. There's not a dang thing wrong with it IMO. Garters are, and always will be, an important food resource for all kinds of creatures. Getting upset about it is as illogical as getting upset about a Lion eating a zebra or a wild garter snake eating a cute little frog.:cool:

Now with the internet there really is no need for this. If you need snakes to feed to your other snakes or critters, then it's not hard at all to get corn snake or other culls from snake breeders so no, I wouldn't go out collecting garter snakes for food anymore. I did what I had to do at the time and I'm not one bit sorry about it.

[guidofatherof5]

I would not hesitate to feed a northwestern garter or two, to another snake under similar circumstances. In fact, when I brought my cali kings up from San Diego, they had only eaten lizards and other snakes and wouldn't eat anything else. I fed them northwestern garter snakes because that's all I could get for them to eat. You may not like it, but that's just tough. A lot of people don't like the fact that we feed rodents to our snakes but what do you tell those people that don't like it? You tell them, tough ship. Don't you? Your snake has to eat.

Now that that's all out of the way, I think that annulata has satisfactorily explained the situation.



That's better. I know it's easy for garter snake lovers to get upset about garters being used for food but that's nature. There's not a dang thing wrong with it IMO. Garters are, and always will be, an important food resource for all kinds of creatures. Getting upset about it is as illogical as getting upset about a Lion eating a zebra or a wild garter snake eating a cute little frog.:cool:

Now with the internet there really is no need for this. If you need snakes to feed to your other snakes or critters, then it's not hard at all to get corn snake or other culls from snake breeders so no, I wouldn't go out collecting garter snakes for food anymore. I did what I had to do at the time and I'm not one bit sorry about it.

I agree with some of what you said but I feel there's a big difference between nature and what goes on in the wild compared to the captive care that we provide.
There's nothing illogical about being concerned or upset when the animals we love are served up as a meal.

[ConcinusMan]

Then I might ask you to stop feeding your snakes earthworms. Or how about no more pinkies, because I love them and it upsets me to see them used as food.:cool:

This difference you speak of is only in your head. They're still wild animals that require certain food items. The fact that you call them pets makes no difference.

[RedSidedSPR]

I agree with Richard.. And Steve. You guys get pretty pissed when certain reptiles/amphibians are taken from the wild.

I understand. I was never really upset. I was still under the impression he was doing it for the heck of it. I had just read the whole thread, and it made him seem like a real a-hole. I know he isn't now.

I dont have a problem with people using stuff from the wild to feed your snakes. Espially if you need to. I've done it. And alot of people dint like it. But I really don't care. Sorry, man. I understand completely.

[ConcinusMan]

There's nothing illogical about being concerned or upset when the animals we love are served up as a meal.

Don't get me wrong. Feeling one way or another about it is never wrong. Anyone's feelings, for any reason, are not wrong. They just are. Everyone's feelings are valid for whatever reason. It's just that feelings are not always logical. It's a bit illogical for me to ask anyone to stop feeding their snakes the foods that they need. I am not saying your feelings about this are illogical. Just that the reasoning behind the feelings are illogical. It's OK with you to feed your snakes worms and pinkies but you don't get upset about that. When it comes to feeding garters to other animals, all the sudden it's not OK. That's illogical.:cool:

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Don't get me wrong. Feeling one way or another about it is never wrong. Anyone's feelings, for any reason, are not wrong. They just are. Everyone's feelings are valid for whatever reason. It's just that feelings are not always logical. It's a bit illogical for me to ask anyone to stop feeding their snakes the foods that they need. I am not saying your feelings about this are illogical. Just that the reasoning behind the feelings are illogical. It's OK with you to feed your snakes worms and pinkies but you don't get upset about that. When it comes to feeding garters to other animals, all the sudden it's not OK. That's illogical.:cool:

Just as people on a rat forum would get really bent out of shape over feeding rats to snakes... Its all about the passion. It's not logical, but one can understand why it happens.

[ConcinusMan]

Heck, you can't even post an ad on craigslist these days that even mentions using rodents as feeders. People get bent out of shape a flag your ad off. It's ridiculous. Of course, these are the same people that have no problem with eating a chicken, pork, or beef dinner because you know, that's "different". Not the same, you know.:rolleyes:

[guidofatherof5]

It's OK with you to feed your snakes worms and pinkies but you don't get upset about that. When it comes to feeding garters to other animals, all the sudden it's not OK. That's illogical.:cool:

No it's not.
You are missing the point.
While my garter snakes are in my care they will not be used as food and the fact that I don't like seeing any garter snakes fed off as food seem quite, how do I say "logical"
It's logical to love what you care for and only want the best for them.

[ConcinusMan]

I suppose it's also quite logical coming from someone who never sees them as "ready" when there really is nothing for them to be "ready" for. If they're never quite "ready" then you never have to part with them. It's quite convenient for them to never be "ready", now isn't it?

Now we don't have to continue with this here. You know I'm right. Your last argument was very weak at best. I wasn't talking about garter snakes in your care being used for food. I was talking about garter snakes as food in general. The fact is they are food for many creatures, just as mice and worms are.


It's logical to love what you care for and only want the best for them.

Then I should get all up in arms and offended because you feed worms and pinkies to your snakes. I just decided I love worms and pinkies just as much as I love snakes. Now where does that leave us? That leaves you biased and me impartial. That's where it leaves us.


Now I know what's going to happen. A bunch of you are going to see me as an a-hole. Well, that's only natural. Anyone who makes another person see things about himself that he doesn't like, is going to be seen as an a-hole.:cool:

[guidofatherof5]

It's not a right or wrong situation.
If it makes you feel better to be right than go ahead.
I'm finished and will speak of it no more.

With regards to my snakes. When and to whom I release my snakes to is my business.
Since they are in my care, I will decide what is best for them and me. You have no say in it.
To use your own words, "You may not like it, but that's just tough"

I would love to see this thread return to Shorthead garter snakes and I apologize for my part in derailing it.

[RedSidedSPR]

I'm sure Richard can understand that. He wasn't gonna sell Miss Piggy to someone who would feed her to a king snake...

Now back to Shortheads...

[d_virginiana]

Woah, just noticed this.. I think what upset me most reading the original thread was that I was under the impression that someone was harvesting a known endangered species for the hell of it. But now that I know they weren't endangered at the time then I can't really fault him any more than I do someone who hunts or eats beef.
I mean, I don't *enjoy* seeing anything eat animals I like, but I can deal with people taking wild feeders for their pets if it's necessary and done in an environmentally responsible way.

[Starling96]

And i dont see how people (not saying names) say that its so bad to take something from the wild even if its not for a picky feeder but we can just have a wc snake
Im not saying your going to give it a bad home but still

[d_virginiana]

And i dont see how people (not saying names) say that its so bad to take something from the wild even if its not for a picky feeder but we can just have a wc snake
Im not saying your going to give it a bad home but still

I don't think the issue is just one of whether or not it's okay to take an animal from the wild. The problem is when people take large numbers of animals from the wild for commercial purposes, since that can cause some pretty serious ecological issues or when people take an endangered/protected animal for any reason whether they want to feed it to their pet or give it a great home.
Plus, if a snake isn't a picky eater, then there's absolutely no reason to bother with catching wild snakes/frogs/lizards for it. There's a higher risk of your snake getting parasites or encountering pesticides, and running around after wild snakes is way more trouble than buying a pack of nightcrawlers from walmart ;)

[Starling96]

"....and running around after wild snakes is way more trouble than buying a pack of nightcrawlers from walmart ;) " totally agree ;) lol
and yea i dont endorse that either

[d_virginiana]

... Running after wild snakes is a lot more fun than going to walmart though. :p

[Starling96]

I agree :P

[ConcinusMan]

With regards to my snakes. When and to whom I release my snakes to is my business.

It is but why lie about it? I know, I know, you're not lying. It's not a lie if you believe the lie. I would have been much more impressed if you had just said "I don't want to" rather than tell me some bull... story.

You are the saint that people make you out to be. You're just as twisted and f'd up as anyone else. Why you pretend otherwise is beyond me.

[kibakiba]

There's no reason to be so rude. You seem to have a large stick up your hind end today. Whatever Steve wants to say, his reasons and motives are his. If you don't like that he says they aren't ready, does it really make that much of a difference than him saying he's not ready? No. They're words. It's like me saying... Oh, I don't know, "Snakey likes attention sometimes" when really he's seeking my warmth or he's curious. It's what I want to believe. If Steve believes his snakes aren't ready to go, you don't have to bring him down because of it. If he's anything like me, he considers his snakes to be family, and you cant just tear family apart. I like to pretend my snakes have emotions, it makes it feel more rewarding when I do things for them. I technically don't need to buy them sockeye salmon, but they seem to enjoy it and to me it seems to make them happy. They seem to appreciate my hand more. Considering they are my only physical friends, when people criticize me about that, it hurts.

I really doubt Steve is twisted of f'd up in any sense. He loves his snakes. There is nothing twisted about that. They aren't just some dumb breeding and eating machine that you keep for no reason.

[d_virginiana]

Wow.... Everyone has problems sure, but as long as an animal is well-cared for it doesn't matter to me how they view it, how many they have, or the excesses they go to for them.

I can sort of understand where Chantel is coming from.. I live in the middle of nowhere and have certain social issues (er, I'll just leave it at that) so my animals are a very important part of my life. My dog, Bear, that I've mentioned on this forum before is pretty much my constant companion when I'm not away doing research, and to hear anyone downplay her significance in my life makes me absolutely furious.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Woah, just noticed this.. I think what upset me most reading the original thread was that I was under the impression that someone was harvesting a known endangered species for the hell of it. But now that I know they weren't endangered at the time then I can't really fault him any more than I do someone who hunts or eats beef.
I mean, I don't *enjoy* seeing anything eat animals I like, but I can deal with people taking wild feeders for their pets if it's necessary and done in an environmentally responsible way.

At the time this thread was made, the shortheaded garter snake was already listed as protected with a possession limit as 0. Now maybe the photos were older, and happened before they became protected... I have no idea. But I do remember messaging him a very long time ago to ask if he knew they were a protected species in PA and the reply I got in a nutshell was "but they are really common where I live". I didn't really look into it any further and am not looking to now either.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Also, everyone needs to calm the heck down. There's no reason for the arguing going on in this thread that is entirely unrelated to shortheads. This thread is old, it needs to go back to beig dead like it was for the 2 or 3 previous years.

[guidofatherof5]

It is but why lie about it? I know, I know, you're not lying. It's not a lie if you believe the lie. I would have been much more impressed if you had just said "I don't want to" rather than tell me some bull... story.

You are the saint that people make you out to be. You're just as twisted and f'd up as anyone else. Why you pretend otherwise is beyond me.

You crossed the line Richard.
Not sure why you've decided to go on this personal attack but I find it to be very unprofessional and childish
I see that information shared with you in a PM really isn't private at all. Not that it matters as the reasons I gave you for not wanting to trade snakes at that time would have been the same reasons I would have given anyone.
I have no reason to lie and have never lied to you or anyone else on this forum.
You are right about one thing. I'm not a saint. I'm just a man trying to make it in this world by being helpful and kind to others. Why would you try to make that into something bad.
I think it would be best if I had no contact with you from this point on. I will not comment on your posts in any negative or positive way and will not use any innuendos referring to you in any of my posts.
If the powers to be deem it necessary I will also leave the forum.

[RicMartin]

WTF?
Steve, you are the best thing in this forum, don't even think of leaving.
Can someone just close this thread, and archive it, please.

[Stefan-A]

Done.