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Steven@HumboldtHerps
11-10-2008, 05:50 AM
Hello everyone! Today I'd like to share what's been happening to some of our California native frogs and garters high up in our alpine lakes. Multiple studies have been done lately that are realizing the detrimental effects of stocking lakes with non-native trout.

In the High Sierras, research has shown that many sub-populations of Mountain Garter (T. e. elegans), which here feed specifically on Mountain Yellow-legged Frogs, are on the decline. Concurrently, yellow-legs are also in severe decline. 2,103 alpine lakes and ponds were monitored (in 2 major locations) with test groups - some lakes were chosen that were stocked with non-native trout, others were free of non-native trout. Results depicted a direct correlation: stocked lakes had scant populations or none of both Mtn Garters and Yellow-legs.

So what is happening? Actually, the effect varies in some localities. In the Trinity Alps of the Klamath Mountains as well as localities near Shasta, stocked rivers and lakes have actually blown garter populations out of proportion and sent both predator and prey on massive migrations. The Oregon Garter (T. atratus hydrophilus) and Valley (T. s. fitchi) are on the rise here.

It should be known that, although garters do feed voraciously on tadpoles, frogs, and yes, locally on baby trout and other fish, adult trout like to exchange the favor by feeding on baby garters as well as tadpoles and the likes.... So there are all these lakes out there that are stocked for fishermen, because these lakes are over-fished.... probably don't even get the chance to grow old enough to breed before they're caught, tortured, and released or eaten. (I do fish by the way, but not for sport...). So, imagine these lakes regularly being stocked with farmed non-native ADULT trout. Those who do not get hooked , will get hungry, and their adult diet threatens younger generations of both frog and snake. So frog populations go first, since they are prey to both fish and snake; most likely their breeding grounds are compromised. In many of these alpine terrains, lakes are isolated by a variey of challenging geographical barriers, which makes migration difficult. Mountain Garters are usually known for being opportunists, in that they feed on a variety of prey species. Many of the Sierra populations feed exclusively on frogs and are not readily adaptable to the rapid change in the feeding heirarchy.

In the case of the Klamath populations, here the study was specifically carried out on the Cascades Frog, which is a remarkable frog (A recent Wildlife study revealed they tunnel under snow to their breeding ponds in early spring and are capable of migrations over 5,000 ft. peaks!), is nonetheless under fire. T. atratus is the most powerful swimmer of all Thamnophis (you should see them in the rapids), and while it relishes frogs and especially larval Pacific Giant Salamanders, it is primarily a fish eater capable of downing fairly good-sized trout. T. s. fitchi, although quite versatile in its diet at times, in this locality it primarily goes after the frogs. So Rana cascadae breeding populations are fleeing the rougher rivers and creeks (to avoid big trout and voracious atratus) for the remaining calmer lakes and ponds. Well, Valley Garters do prefer calmer bodies of water....
And so it's basically a situation where the frogs have nowhere to hide. Even atratus has been found leaving its preferred aquatic habitat in search of frogs on the move. I have seen them in the lakes.

So, it's something I thought you might like to ponder. Please note that there was no mention of any effects global warming or chytrid fungus might be having on the Sierra populations. Chytrid has also recently been found in the Trinity Alps. :( In case you don't know, chytrid, which once established in a particular habitat, can wipe out up to 80% of all amphibians living there within the first year!

That's a big BOO HOO for both frog and snake!

Steven

infernalis
11-10-2008, 06:15 AM
Thanks again Steven, Great information as always:D

Zephyr
11-10-2008, 11:35 AM
Wow.
I noticed something like this in Utah.
There was a mountain lake we visited that seemed like perfect garter habitat. I recall POSSIBLY hearing a frog call or two, but it could've just been me.
The lake was stocked with non-native trout, and there wasn't a garter to be found. (Or frog, but I couldn't reach the reed-y areas.)

Snake lover 3-25
11-10-2008, 12:15 PM
wow lol you def. hold the record for longets posts!!!!lol thanks for the info!!!:D

jitami
11-10-2008, 12:18 PM
Thank you for sharing that information Steven... it really sucks... is there any hope of the stocking being discontinued?

ssssnakeluvr
11-10-2008, 06:52 PM
very interesting!!!!! wanderings are also good at swimming in rivers. I teach kids about nature....mother nature has her balance, and man comes along and screws it up!!!!!! should leave the trout where they belong....
I have caught lots of fitchi as a kid....always around pond where frogs were found....wanderings along rivers where fish are.

jitami
11-10-2008, 06:57 PM
mother nature has her balance, and man comes along and screws it up!!!!!!

Nice Don :D (and I totally agree in case you're wondering)

Stefan-A
11-10-2008, 11:29 PM
mother nature has her balance, and man comes along and screws it up!!!!!!
For a change. Usually mother nature's the one who screws it up. And when she screws it up, she screws it up BIG.

Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretaceous%E2%80%93Tertiary_extinction_event)
Triassic–Jurassic extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triassic-Jurassic_extinction_event)
Permian–Triassic extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permian-Triassic_extinction_event)
Late Devonian extinction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Devonian_extinction)
Ordovician–Silurian extinction event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordovician-Silurian_extinction_events)
Cambrian–Ordovician extinction events - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian-Ordovician_extinction_events)

snakeman
11-11-2008, 05:18 AM
Now that I think of it.I herp at tyler state park in pa.I know they stocked it this year.With what I don't know.I do know that I did'nt catch half as many garters as in previous years.Still a good amount of frogs.But, I did notice not as many toads.

ssssnakeluvr
11-11-2008, 12:58 PM
For a change. Usually mother nature's the one who screws it up. And when she screws it up, she screws it up BIG.

she just gets tired of playing with what she has and wipes them out to start over again...:D

infernalis
11-11-2008, 02:09 PM
How much longer before mother nature gets tired of us???

http://www.matter-antimatter.com/large_gallery_earth_impact.jpg

Stefan-A
11-11-2008, 02:12 PM
How much longer before mother nature gets tired of us???
I say we better get her before she gets us.

Steven@HumboldtHerps
11-12-2008, 01:45 PM
Where's my space suit?

ssssnakeluvr
11-12-2008, 09:54 PM
How much longer before mother nature gets tired of us???

http://www.matter-antimatter.com/large_gallery_earth_impact.jpg

hopefully long after I have acquired all garter snake species....:rolleyes:

infernalis
11-12-2008, 10:01 PM
hopefully long after I have acquired all garter snake species....:rolleyes:

Wanna race???:D

ssssnakeluvr
11-12-2008, 10:14 PM
sure.... :cool:

NikkiSixx
11-13-2008, 09:38 AM
You guys are funny!!




i Bet DekayBrown is going to win... sorry dad but its true! lol:D

infernalis
11-13-2008, 09:41 AM
Thank you:D

Not really racing anyone... just fascinated with Garter snakes.

ssssnakeluvr
11-13-2008, 10:46 AM
You guys are funny!!




i Bet DekayBrown is going to win... sorry dad but its true! lol:D
thanks for the support......:( don't forget....I know where you live :eek: