Tips with San Fransico Garters

[zirliz]

I'm thinking of getting a pair of San Fransisco garters,

are these hard to breed?
What market is there for them?

[reptile3]

I did a Google search on them, WOW they are very nice looking garters.

[zooplan]

These are easy to get throughout Europe, not the easiest to breed and the price is actually about 80 -130 € but decreasing.
If you live in the USA, don´t even think of breeding them :mad:,
they are protected by law in all states.:p

[prattypus]

That's it, I'm moving to England!

[mtolypetsupply]

Maybe this is a silly question, but why are they easy to get in Europe, but banned from ownership *here* where they could be bred to be reintroduced to the wild? It just seems that garter enthusiasts would do a great job of it, and actually *care* about these little guys, while I doubt tetraenia is high on the list for breeding and reintroduction by the "officials" who have banned them.

Maybe I'm wrong, though, and maybe there's a ton of money in Grants out there for a breeding program, and wildlife officials are in heavy competition for the priviledge of breeding them. (sniff, sniff, Smell that??? Yeah, smells like sarcasm to me too!)

[JSI]

Maybe this is a silly question, but why are they easy to get in Europe, but banned from ownership *here* where they could be bred to be reintroduced to the wild?


Well the main reason is hobbyists breeding animals and reintroducing them into the wild is a recipe for disaster. Sure yes, your heart is in the right place but the potential for introducing disease and impurities into wild populations is huge.

Jeremy

[Stefan-A]

Maybe this is a silly question, but why are they easy to get in Europe, but banned from ownership *here* where they could be bred to be reintroduced to the wild?
Not at all a silly question. In the case of the SanFran, habitat loss is probably the biggest reason why they are endangered. In other words, there's nowhere to release them.


It just seems that garter enthusiasts would do a great job of it, and actually *care* about these little guys, while I doubt tetraenia is high on the list for breeding and reintroduction by the "officials" who have banned them.
Ordinary enthusiasts are not the best possible people to take care of that. They can offer little more than manpower, when any form of breeding aiming for reintroduction needs to be thoroughly planned and controlled. It's not as simple as just producing large quantities of individuals.

[zooplan]

All European SanFran Garters are descendants from very few individuals that were donated to the zoo of Jersey.
They bred so successfully that they had to give away the offspring to other zoos and those gave some to privat people.
The beauty of this subspecy made all keepers to try breeding harder than for any other specy.
So we have lots of them here now but would need a few more wildcaught specimens to refresh (and expand) the gene-pool.

[infernalis]

Thamnophis Infernalis (California Garter Snake) IS available to private collections within the USA and have almost the same markings that make the S.F. so attractive.

http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/inf3.jpg

[Snake lover 3-25]

SWEET!!!!! i wish i had known that!!!!:eek:

[adamanteus]

My San Frans were mating earlier this evening!:D

[Garter_Gertie]

Dekay, you got?

If so, put this addict you created on your list so you can supply my addiction...

GORGEOUS!





Thamnophis Infernalis (California Garter Snake) IS available to private collections within the USA and have almost the same markings that make the S.F. so attractive.

http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/inf3.jpg

[ssssnakeluvr]

My San Frans were mating earlier this evening!:D
once again.....I need a smiley giving a raspberry!!!!!!! :cool:

[adamanteus]

once again.....I need a smiley giving a raspberry!!!!!!! :cool:

Like this?:p

[ssssnakeluvr]

well...thats more of a silly face with tongue out....but close enough!!! :p :p :p :p :p :p

[prattypus]

I like the CA reds too. I like the solid patches of red opposed to the patiels' red checkers.

I've heard that CA Reds and SanFrans can integrade in the wild- is the regular red sided range overlapping, making that a possibility?

[infernalis]

once again.....I need a smiley giving a raspberry!!!!!!! :cool:

Here is a good one...

http://webpages.charter.net/trussell/pictures/raspberry%20smiley.gif


Dekay, you got?

If so, put this addict you created on your list so you can supply my addiction...

GORGEOUS!

MK My Infernalis passed away after eating one of those bad fish. I will be starting over again in the spring.

[reptile3]

Here is a good one...

http://webpages.charter.net/trussell/pictures/raspberry%20smiley.gif



MK My Infernalis passed away after eating one of those bad fish. I will be starting over again in the spring.


I am sorry to hear about your snakie, but would love to have one of those that you get in the spring... MK, he is also supporting my habit too!!!:D

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Thamnophis Infernalis (California Garter Snake) IS available to private collections within the USA and have almost the same markings that make the S.F. so attractive.

http://www.gartersnake.co.uk/inf3.jpg

Actually, that may be true for other states, but not California. California Dept. of Fish and Game limits 2 specimens of any one species of CA native Thamnophis for private collection (except of course for ssp. tetrataenia [endangered] and most garters in Southern California [severely threatened]). Breeding garters native to California is prohibited. Universities might get special permission for research purposes... The 2 specimen limit goes as far as including all subspecies within a particular species. So if you wanted an infernalis and a fitchi, that would put you at your limit for sirtalis.

My question is how captive-bred Easterns (sirtalis clade) make it to our California Petcos without having this apparent loophole b/n western and eastern subspecies addessed...

Steve

[prattypus]

Actually, that may be true for other states, but not California. California Dept. of Fish and Game limits 2 specimens of any one species of CA native Thamnophis for private collection (except of course for ssp. tetrataenia [endangered] and most garters in Southern California [severely threatened]). Breeding garters native to California is prohibited. Universities might get special permission for research purposes... The 2 specimen limit goes as far as including all subspecies within a particular species. So if you wanted an infernalis and a fitchi, that would put you at your limit for sirtalis.

My question is how captive-bred Easterns (sirtalis clade) make it to our California Petcos without having this apparent loophole b/n western and eastern subspecies addessed...

Steve

Some political lobbyist writes a fat check that allows such snake species, along with a high number of lovebirds and conures into the population...

[drache]

yeah
the first time I saw an infernalis I began wondering . . .
the colours are totally the same
to be picky about stripes versus spots seems kind of Cruella de Vil

[Stefan-A]

Most of the ones I've seen look remarkably like tetrataenia, but I've also seen pictures of infernalis that look more like concinnus.

[drache]

I tend to think of them as tetras with a a concinnus pattern, or concinnus with tetra colours
since I have both infernalis and concinnus, I can say that at first glance it's really just the colouring that's different, as though they're just colour variations of the same sub-species, which in a loose sense is what they are

[count dewclaw]

Actually, that may be true for other states, but not California. California Dept. of Fish and Game limits 2 specimens of any one species of CA native Thamnophis for private collection (except of course for ssp. tetrataenia [endangered] and most garters in Southern California [severely threatened]). Breeding garters native to California is prohibited. Universities might get special permission for research purposes... The 2 specimen limit goes as far as including all subspecies within a particular species. So if you wanted an infernalis and a fitchi, that would put you at your limit for sirtalis.

Steve

Could someone from another state get a non-resident license and collect 2 specimens of infernalis and then ship them home? I ask because my sister lives near San Fran. Or could she get a couple (highly unlikely - I don't think she like snakes) and ship them to me? Just curious, probably wouldn't happen, but the thought keeps popping up in my brain.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Could someone from another state get a non-resident license and collect 2 specimens of infernalis and then ship them home? I ask because my sister lives near San Fran. Or could she get a couple (highly unlikely - I don't think she like snakes) and ship them to me? Just curious, probably wouldn't happen, but the thought keeps popping up in my brain.

I do not believe there is such a license (I will look into it), as its existence would undermine native limits for CA residents. I have had many a great folk here ask if I could acquire local specimens for them for out of state export. Since I run a herp society that is founded upon conservation, I am morally and ethically bound to stick to the rules. It is apparent that many infernalis and tetrataenia have "found" their way beyond the California border. This is likely due to the fact that either 1) they were obtained prior to current fish and game restrictions, or 2) they were acquired illegally in the obvious manner mentioned... 3) might be some zoo transfers or adoptions???

Steve

[ssssnakeluvr]

last I read, you could collect 2 with a fishing license, has that changed????

[Garter_Gertie]

Since I run a herp society that is founded upon conservation, I am morally and ethically bound to stick to the rules.


So hard to be that way; to go against 'the flow.'

You are a good man, Ghunga Din. Bless you.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

last I read, you could collect 2 with a fishing license, has that changed????

It has not (exclude So. Cal.), but I am not sure about regulations regarding crossing state lines with native booty. I'm sure it's done regularly. Policing these laws is of course a whole other story. I really need to look into this...

Steven

[karlh]

i have a pair of these and they are by far the best snakes i've ever owned. the fact they are diurnal and so brightly colored makes them a great display!