Feeding Hyspiglena - [Corn snake lovers beware!]

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This may seem a horrible affair to many of you who love corn snakes, but I feel, that in the name of science, the following pictures may provide an alternative feeding choice for those select few who keep the often difficult-to-feed Night Snake. When I obtained this WC San Diego Night (Hypsiglena torquata klauberi) last January, I was harboring quite a bit of guilt due to the fact that I could not find anything that the snake would eat.
I tried pinkies, baby alligator lizards, small salamanders - No luck! Finally in May (4 months!) "Hypsi" took a young Skilton's Skink. That was just a teaser, since I didn't come across any more skinks for quite some time. July brought me my 1st of 2 corn clutches; the triple recessives I was breeding hatched out with a 50% success rate. The other 50% did not die; rather they were all afflicted with numerous vertebral kinks (an occurrence more and more prevalent these days with all the CB mutations).

All of you who overflowing with empathy right now - I understand your emotions. Fortunately, my acceptance of nature's natural way opened the door to solving my Night Snake feeding isssue. "Hypsi" is now feeding regularly on corn neonates. Please note that I incapacitate the corns to prevent prolonged suffering (the first feeding was not nice... very drawn out...).

Anyways, here ya go. Let this be a good reminder for those of you seeking new and unique WC's; there may be a reason why they are not common in captivity (selective prey).

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20081027HCHSimage-Nightsnake_feeding_on_Corn_Snake01A.JPG

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20081027HCHSimage-Nightsnake_feeding_on_Corn_Snake01B.JPG

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20081027HCHSimage-Nightsnake_feeding_on_Corn_Snake01F.JPG

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20081027HCHSimage-Nightsnake_feeding_on_Corn_Snake01I.JPG

http://www.humboldtherps.com/images/20081027HCHSimage-Nightsnake_feeding_on_Corn_Snake01J.JPG

Night Snakes have an incredible ability to stretch circumferentially. If the snake they are eating is too long, they just "fold" it!

Steve

[Loren]

Awesome set of pics Steven. That is a pretty decent sized night snake. Its always amazing what they can eat. And not hardly show it a couple days later.

Nothing wrong with feeding him the corns if you ask me. At least the get used for something good, rather than just dying and being discarded.
My California night snake eats f/t small fence lizards and f/t pacific treefrogs. My desert nightsnake is pounding down live or f/t pinkies great- no scenting. I couldnt hardly believe it the first time it grabbed a pinky out of my hand.
I once tried a small snake with the california, and it didnt take it. Go figure.

I caught and released a california night snake this year that was larger in length and girth than a typical gopher snake hatchling. I think it was about 15".

[tyflier]

That's very interesting. I tried to keep a Desert nightsnake I caught this year, and it wouldn't eat for me. Not lizards, not geckos, not amphibs...nothing. I even tried desert gecko eggs and it wouldn't eat. I l\released it before it got too late in the summer so it would have ample time to bulk up and hide for the winter, but I always wondered if it wouldn't have taken a corn baby...

I feed baby corns to kingsnakes. Not just any baby corns, but those that seem bent on starving and any with debilitating deformities go into the freezer and than to the kings. Just as an aside...

[infernalis]

My deformed and still borns go to the Savannah Monitor.

Chomp eats anything........

[jitami]

Interesting stuff Steve... I'm really ok with just about anything being used as a prey item if it's done as humanely as possible... and I know that sometimes that's just not possible either. It does touch a bit of a nerve, but no more so than cute little fuzzy mice with their little pink noses and whiskers...

[crzy_kevo]

thats a very cool pic steven

[GartersRock]

Thanks for the pics! Congrats on finding something your night will feed on regularly!
I will be working with a lot of difficult WC species. I just purchased a beautiful adult male Desert Patchnose from Arizona for $2. LOL They couldn't get him to eat anything for a month after they caught him and didn't want to keep trying so I took him. 1 day later he took a live anole. ;) So hopefully I can get a female feeding.

Working w/difficult species that are seldom if ever available CB is a goal of mine.

I also love rear fanged species and hope to aquire some night snakes. Did the venom do any work on the corn snake?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I also love rear fanged species and hope to aquire some night snakes. Did the venom do any work on the corn snake?

The first time I fed "Hypsi" a corn neonate, it was live. I did notice what looked like the night snake "gumming" the corn, basically working those rear fangs back and forth. I did not have the time to watch the whole affair, but I did become distraught when I returned 15 minutes later to find the corn still "kicking"; it was weakened, but still had the capacity to try coiling around the night snake - not with much luck however, because of its spinal defect (watching severely kinked corns slither is disturbing). I now only feed incapacitated corns.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I also would like to add that I am not certain as to how developed the rear fangs are in night snakes. Many rear fangs aren't even grooved, so there is no hyperdermic delivery, just rear teeth "chewing in" the mildly toxic saliva. I know - snakes don't really chew! :) I believe this is the case with Ring-necked snakes as well.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I feed baby corns to kingsnakes. Not just any baby corns, but those that seem bent on starving and any with debilitating deformities go into the freezer and than to the kings. Just as an aside...

As in nature, the sick and weak are always first inline to be eaten.

Completely off the topic: I was checking out your corn genetics morphology page covering the definitions of motley and striped. All godd, but I just wanted to add that, even though motley is co-dominant to striped (share loci), its effect is actually dominant over striped. You can have a completely striped corn and have it not contain any gene for striping. A lot of breeders or pet shops don't know this, but the info re: this can be found in Charles Pritzel's Corn Morph Guide. The way to tell the difference is in the width of the stripe. If the stripe is as wide as perhaps say the width of a motley circle, it is homo striped; if the stripe is skinny, < width of a motley circle, it will be homo motley or the shared het motley/striped. Blew my mind! (a het within a co-dominant pairing!)

Steve

[anji1971]

Very interesting pictures, and topic!
When it comes to feeding, I'm not one to have an issue with much of anything. In nature, the cycle of life and death can be quite vicious. I think it's we humans who try to soothe ourselves by making the whole feeding issue as humane as possible.
If an animal needs to eat, it needs to eat. That's just the way it is, and when we keep an animal intentionally, then it's our responsibility to keep it thriving, whether it bothers some people or not.
I do credit you for pointing out that some species aren't found in captivity often for a reason. It's easy to get carried away and want to keep anything you find. Doesn't always mean you should! A good reminder in general.;)
Very nice nightsnake, BTW.:)

[Charlet_2007]

that's all our speckled king eats is other snakes.. ive found a breeder that breeds corns as well and am now getting deformed and dead baby snakes off her.. So im tottly in the same boat your in..

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Any stillborn, deformed, weak or starve-my-self-to-death snakes are used for feed here at my house. My tiger salamander eats them. My cali king will not eat snakes (weird, huh?)

I also will not feed a snake that died due to reason unknown (as in it was not a hatchling snake that starved itself to death or otherwise) Because If the snake died of some disease... parasite... etc... I don't want to take that chance.

[Garter_Gertie]

[quote=aSnakeLovinBabe;I also will not feed a snake that died due to reason unknown (as in it was not a hatchling snake that starved itself to death or otherwise) Because If the snake died of some disease... parasite... etc... I don't want to take that chance.[/quote]

Very wise, Shannon. Good you mentioned that.

[Aundrea]

WOW Very interesting pics. Thanks for posting them. I have never seen pics of a snake eating another snake. I know weird eh? lol. :eek::D

[reptile3]

Great pictures... Very interesting. I too have never seen another snake eat, a snake. Thanks for sharing.:)

[Loren]

I will be working with a lot of difficult WC species. I just purchased a beautiful adult male Desert Patchnose from Arizona for $2. LOL They couldn't get him to eat anything for a month after they caught him and didn't want to keep trying so I took him. 1 day later he took a live anole. ;) So hopefully I can get a female feeding.


Cool!
My Mojave Desert Patchnose takes rat pinks very well. I think it ate the first time I offered it.
I have 2 low profile hides for it, just big enough for him. One on the heat (around 90 degrees f. ) one off the heat. At first, I left it alone as much as possible, and offered food to it right into the hide.

No heat lamps or overhead lighting at this time, just a row of 4" flexwatt set to 95 deg. although my diurnal snakes will hopefully soon have flourecent lighting to give them more of a daytime, at least for a few hours a day.

I have the cal nightsnake on lizards and frogs, shovelnose and ground snake on crickets, and I think all the rest of my snake species/subspecies eat rodents. The rarely seen(in captivity) snakes are very neat, you just have to alot enough time to figure them out. Some desert snakes eat fine at typical snake temps, others seem to require temps more suited for a diurnal desert lizard. My ground snake didnt do well until I gave it a hot end of just over 100 degrees. And never underestimate the value of good tight hide spots. Low profile too.

[tyflier]

As in nature, the sick and weak are always first inline to be eaten.

Completely off the topic: I was checking out your corn genetics morphology page covering the definitions of motley and striped. All godd, but I just wanted to add that, even though motley is co-dominant to striped (share loci), its effect is actually dominant over striped. You can have a completely striped corn and have it not contain any gene for striping. A lot of breeders or pet shops don't know this, but the info re: this can be found in Charles Pritzel's Corn Morph Guide. The way to tell the difference is in the width of the stripe. If the stripe is as wide as perhaps say the width of a motley circle, it is homo striped; if the stripe is skinny, < width of a motley circle, it will be homo motley or the shared het motley/striped. Blew my mind! (a het within a co-dominant pairing!)

Steve
Yes, I know. I have the '06, '07, and '08 Morph Guides by Chuck. Very good books, IMO. I wanted to keep the morphology as simple as possible, along with the genetics tutorial. No need to confuse people more than they already are, IMO.

[GartersRock]

Cool Loren! I get the feeling it won't be long until he will take mice! He took another lizard today.

And you're right. It's all about figuring out what makes them comfortable. ;)
Thanks for the tips!

[ssssnakeluvr]

any babies I have that pass on or are put down due to deformities or other are fed to my leopard gecko..he loves them. I also fed them to my desert kingsnake....but he went in a trade to the rescue.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I have the cal nightsnake on lizards and frogs, shovelnose and ground snake on crickets, and I think all the rest of my snake species/subspecies eat rodents.

Wow! I have always been fascinated by the smaller species; you are actually maintaining a ground snake? That's great. I have been told (and have experienced with rough green snakes) that the invertebrate eaters are always a challenge. You've got the ground snake on crickets? Awesome. So now it's time to experiment with other insects or arachnids! Crickets offer poor nutrition, unless ya dust them regularly. I have been experimenting with different tropical roaches (supposedly high in comparable nutrition) for my spiders, but that's a bit out of context. We wuz talkin little snakes! Where are you located? Closer to the desert than I most likely (I'm in the redwoods!). Yeah, the little guys are always at the bottom of the food chain! I only recently began to realize just how many "sock-eating socks" are actually out there... Let's see... My Ring-neck would eat my Sharp-tail, my Night Snake might take the Ring-neck (close match?), certainly my CA King would take the Night...

I must stop now! These are horrible thoughts! (......And I still feel bad for feeding slender salamanders to my smaller snakes!)

Steve

[Loren]

Here you go Steven. :)

I'll start with a pic of my ground snake's cage. A 40 watt bulb points at one end from outside the cage, giving a temp gradient of about 107 degrees (f) down to ambient temp, all in a 5 gallon tank. Thats a cardboard hide that runs most of the temp gradient. A long piece of melamine with 1/4" or so holes drilled in it- a great shedding aid which the ground snake uses every time.
The deli cup is moist vermiculite- a moist hide which the snake also usues from time to time. And, a babyfood jar water dish. Thats mojave desert sand in the cage.

All pictures were taken tonight. All names as per California Herps .com to cut out any confusion.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/ground_snake_cage.JPG



Sonora semiannulata - Western Groundsnake. Captive since July of 2007. Eats crickets. His head looks funny in the pic cause he's pressing it against my hand pretty hard. This is the only specimen I know of from Lassen County.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/ground_snake.JPG

Chionactis occipitalis occipitalis - MojaveShovel-nosed Snake. Captive since June 2008. Eats crickets.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/shovelnose.JPG

Hypsiglena ochrorhyncha nuchalata - California Night Snake. Captive since 7-3 2005. Eats Pacific treefrogs and fence lizards. Its in shed right now, so its not at its best.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/california_night_snake.JPG

Hypsiglena chlorophaea deserticola - Northern Desert Nightsnake. Captive since June 2008. Eats pinkies.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/desert_night_snake.JPG

[Loren]

I do raise dubia roaches, I guess really young ones would probably be good for the shovel and ground snakes. Never even thought of it. I'll try the shovel nose first.

[GartersRock]

Now THAT'S a nice little group of super cool snakes!!

[reptile3]

Here you go Steven. :)

I'll start with a pic of my ground snake's cage. A 40 watt bulb points at one end from outside the cage, giving a temp gradient of about 107 degrees (f) down to ambient temp, all in a 5 gallon tank. Thats a cardboard hide that runs most of the temp gradient. A long piece of melamine with 1/4" or so holes drilled in it- a great shedding aid which the ground snake uses every time.
The deli cup is moist vermiculite- a moist hide which the snake also usues from time to time. And, a babyfood jar water dish. Thats mojave desert sand in the cage.

All pictures were taken tonight. All names as per California Herps .com to cut out any confusion.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/ground_snake_cage.JPG



Sonora semiannulata - Western Groundsnake. Captive since July of 2007. Eats crickets. His head looks funny in the pic cause he's pressing it against my hand pretty hard. This is the only specimen I know of from Lassen County.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/ground_snake.JPG

Chionactis occipitalis occipitalis - MojaveShovel-nosed Snake. Captive since June 2008. Eats crickets.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/shovelnose.JPG

Hypsiglena ochrorhyncha nuchalata - California Night Snake. Captive since 7-3 2005. Eats Pacific treefrogs and fence lizards. Its in shed right now, so its not at its best.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/california_night_snake.JPG

Hypsiglena chlorophaea deserticola - Northern Desert Nightsnake. Captive since June 2008. Eats pinkies.
http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/desert_night_snake.JPG


Those are some nice snakes!!!

[Seere121]

My California night snake eats f/t small fence lizards and f/t pacific treefrogs. My desert nightsnake is pounding down live or f/t pinkies great- no scenting. I couldnt hardly believe it the first time it grabbed a pinky out of my hand.


Pardon, but where do you get your treefrogs? Do you buy them or capture them yourself. I have a stubborn western hognose and I'm trying to find a few frogs to see if he will eat them.

[Loren]

Pardon, but where do you get your treefrogs? Do you buy them or capture them yourself. I have a stubborn western hognose and I'm trying to find a few frogs to see if he will eat them.
I catch my own treefrogs and fence lizards locally. Most of my feeder animals are caught on my parents dairy, a few miles from my house. I can sex fence lizards quite well even when fairly young, and try to just catch males, so the population isnt hurt.

[Loren]

I personally always freeze my feeder frogs and lizards for several weeks first too, to reduce the chances of parasite issues.

[Garter_Gertie]

Cheez, Loren. Why aren't you older? Why can't I walk farther? Why can't can't we be more religioulsy compatible?

(sigh)

[Loren]

I dont know, Gertie, I just dont know. Some things in this world are just above our understanding. :):D

[drache]

Cheez, Loren. Why aren't you older?
what's with this age thing?
go watch "Harold and Maude"

[Snake lover 3-25]

wow very nice snakes:D love the colors of the first two!!!!!:eek:

[DaveM]

I "recycle" neonate corns to get finicky kings going, always interesting to watch them feed :)

[Loren]

From tonight- Desert night snake eating a pinky taken directly from my fingers.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/d_night_snake_eating_pinky.JPG

[GartersRock]

Awesome!!!!

[anji1971]

Cool!
Loren, you've got quite a collection of unusual snakes. Glad to see you're having success with the "not so common" breeds.:)

[Snake lover 3-25]

neat snake love the colors:D

[drache]

fantastic, Loren

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Awesome night snakes Loren! I'm going to try scenting pinkies with aroma of corn next time!

Steve

[Loren]

Let me know if it works. Probably best results if you wash the pinky good prior to scenting.

[infernalis]

That is a nice collection Loren.

The little snakes don't get enough respect.