Garter vs. Corn (round 2 ;)

[Cobra Kai]

Ok…this is a close cage match, so this fight needs to go to the judges. I’ll have to crunch the numbers to see who won.

Again for those who need a refresher, I’m interested in getting the perfect beginner snake for me and my 5 & 2 year-old boys. As far as my herp experience goes, I have much experience with turtles, tortoises, frogs, lizards, & an iguana. More turtles than anything. I currently have my two childhood box turtles for over 25 years now. They will definitely out live me.

But this time in my life, I need easy, simple and low maintenance. And yeah…I want to get my boys into it. You guy & gals gave me a lot of great information to think about and I thank you. It was very enlightening to here others say how some of their snakes like kings are finicky eaters. I can’t deal with that these days. LOW MAINTENANCE IS WHAT I SEEK. I know you guys have posted a lot for me already, so I hope it wouldn’t be too much trouble to vote for my personal situation.

Cheers! :D

[reptile3]

Wooo hoooo, I was the first to vote!!!:D

[Aundrea]

Woooooooo hooooooo im second :D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Look guys I know that we all like garters a WHOLE lot but we really need to examine this situation from an unbiased point of view.


5 & 2 year-old boys.


LOW MAINTENANCE IS WHAT I SEEK.


These two quotes here are the only thing that one would need to decide. Garters are simply not a good idea for both of those reasons. I am sure you know that 2 year olds are grabby, and that could spell major trouble for a garter snake or even a cornsnake that is not an adult. You will have to be extremely careful around the toddler with any snake... but I definitely think that a cornsnake is the better choice of the two, bar none, hands down, absolutely.

Garter snakes, especially babies are overall a much smaller snake, and small fragile animals and young children do not mix. You will even have to be extremely careful with a baby corn (I would strongly recommend getting a big juvenile or an adult, for the fact that the snake will be larger, and most likely past the defensive biting stage that many baby corns are born with)

Simply put, corns are low maintenance, and garter snakes are not. They need to eat a lot more, they are a lot more active, they are a lot more responsive to quick movements and being touched the wrong way (children tend to do that lol), and they poop a lot. my vote is 110% cornsnake in this situation. Yes I love garter snakes to death, but I never allow small children to mess with my garters and I do not sell or give baby garters to families with young kids as their first snake for all the reasons mentioned above. I will literally turn down a sale because I feel that small snakes are simply too fragile to be at that risk. I am not saying it can't be done, just that it is not in the best interest of the snake and all concerned. you children will probably enjoy being able to touch and interact with a corn. Garters do not tolerate being "pet" like corns will. You can pet a cornsnake... but a garter usually will start zipping around!

[infernalis]

I'm with Shannon on this one....

For the situation, I'd vote Corn snake.

slow, casual and uneventful, perfect for kids.

[GartersRock]

I voted corn snake, for reasons Shannon stated, but I thought them before I saw her post. :D:D lol!

[reptile3]

I was wrong... well I am learning!!

[Hornets23]

I'm with you guys. Honestly, I LOVE my garters. We all do. They just plain rock. However, a 2 year old and a 5 year old will probably have trouble with garters. From my experience kids that age like to touch things....hold them and otherwise interact. Lets face it...sometimes its not easy for ME to hang onto the garters when they are being wiggly. Of course some are easier than others but I think a corn would be better. Sure, they hide....but when you want to get it out and see it...you can dig it out. They dont seem to mind at all. They seem to almost enjoy crawling around on you and I havent seen and bursts of speed like you do in garters. Probably a lot more reasonable for a little kid. Like I said before...just get one of each. You can enjoy the garters and the kids will have the corn get a little closer to.

[Cobra Kai]

Like I said before...just get one of each. You can enjoy the garters and the kids will have the corn get a little closer to.
It’s all about compromise. I like it. ;)

[tyflier]

My 4 year old daughter got HER first corn at 2. She still doesn't mess with our garter, but she regularly holds and plays with most of the corns...babies and adults alike. For beginners and kids, I think it only makes sense to get the snake that is going to be most forgiving of mistakes, and be the most able to withstand regular holding and child attention. That's a cornsnake.

I take corns to the preschoools and let the kids play with them. I wouldn't dream of doing that with a garter...

[jitami]

First let me say that I am sooo impressed by your research and desire to do what's right for both the snakes and your children. I don't have the snake experience that many here do, but I do have tons of kid experience and I, too, vote for a juvenile or adult corn who is already feeding well and already used to handling as your first snake. You can add a garter or ten later :D

[Charlet_2007]

i voted garter but really you all need to get is a ball python.. those things are a pet rock.. :D:D:D

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

i voted garter but really you all need to get is a ball python.. those things are a pet rock.. :D:D:D

I strongly disagree. ball pythons are absolutely not a good first snake... no matter how common they are in the pet trade. They are much more needy as far as temp and humidity regulation goes and they are notorious for going off feed. They are also very unforgiving of beginner's mistakes. I wil gaurantee you that thousands more BP's than cornsnakes die each year because someone got them as a first snake.

[adamanteus]

In my honest opinion the best beginners snake is......

A damned good book!:rolleyes:
Then get a Corn Snake.

[Cobra Kai]

First let me say that I am sooo impressed by your research and desire to do what's right for both the snakes and your children. I don't have the snake experience that many here do, but I do have tons of kid experience and I, too, vote for a juvenile or adult corn who is already feeding well and already used to handling as your first snake. You can add a garter or ten later :D
Thanks for the encouragement. It’s no big deal, that’s how I do. It only took me 4 years to choose my puppy’s bloodline and breeder. LOL! Hopefully I’ll be able to make up my mind a little quicker this time.


i voted garter but really you all need to get is a ball python.. those things are a pet rock.. :D:D:D
I love BPs too. I would love to have a pastel from NERD's. They are only a half an hour from my house. But I have to agree with "aSnakeLovinBabe". At this time, I don’t think I’m ready for that yet. But I'm with ya though. They are very chill and I think I'll have to add one to my collection someday.


In my honest opinion the best beginners snake is......

A damned good book!:rolleyes:
Then get a Corn Snake.
I devoured Kathy & Bill Love’s book – “Corn Snakes : The Comprehensive Owner's Guide” and it was damn good.

The only thing was…..

I then read “Garter and Ribbon Snakes: Facts & Advice on Care and Breeding” by Richard & Patricia Bartlett
and it was damn good too. :rolleyes:

[Garter_Gertie]

Leave the garters until the kids are way older.

Go corn.

[zooplan]

Sorry, but I belive 2 years is too young for any snake.
My 13 and 15 year old daughters have their own snakes, but I still feel liable for those.
My younger children ( 6 and 8) must not have their own snakes yet, but of course they are allowed to handle some of mine frequently.
So no vote from me;)

[Cobra Kai]

I understand your point about kids. My todler is doing good if we let him out of his gated toy room, let alone having any responsibilities. The kids (only) stare at my box turtles and the 5 year old (might) give doggie a cookie. So the kids will not be taking care of anything. But we all know this snake is actually Daddy's. ;)

[tyflier]

Sorry, but I belive 2 years is too young for any snake.
My 13 and 15 year old daughters have their own snakes, but I still feel liable for those.
My younger children ( 6 and 8) must not have their own snakes yet, but of course they are allowed to handle some of mine frequently.
So no vote from me;)
Of course the kids that young don't actually participate in the care of the animals. They are too young at 5 or 6. The snake is the responsibility of the parent, even at 13 or 14.

I got my daughter a snake when she was 2. I take care of him, and I use him for breeding, but when she is old enough to move out of the house, if she wants to take Sammy Snake with her, she is welcome to...it's her snake. If she doesn't want to, of course I will continue to care for him, but she at least has the option.

[E&Asmom]

I have a 3 and a 6 year old. My six year old has his own corn snake that he takes care of with supervison!!! I have to remind him to feed it and I have to tell him to come into the reptile room to play with him and change his paper. The 3 year old does not have a snake of his own yet.
My vote would be corn snake 100%. Just make sure you play with it first and pick one that is a little more laid back. Not all corn snakes are mellow!

[Seere121]

My first snake was a BP after a year of experience with my roommates corns and a solid month of research before I got Her. Then I found a Garter, then another garter, then another BP, then another garter, then adopted my moms corn snakes, then adopted another BP from a coworker, then found a pair of baby coastal carpet pythons at an expo.... Yea... Be careful, Snakes can be addicting. Oh, and my vote is for corn snake as long as its an adult and ANY interaction with children is supervised. I have several Corns at various ages and the adults are by far the most calm and forgiving. The babys can be nippy and defensive.

[Snake lover 3-25]

i am fully responsible for all my snakes and my fish and turtle.... i got a job outside of the house to pay for them, i feed them clean cages ect. my parents have no part whatsoever in their care....... and i'm 15....... and i've had snakes like this since i was ten with no parental guidence.... i ask my parents if i can keep them in the house and that's about it....

[GartersRock]

I have had snakes since I was 10. I caught my first checkered garter. And like Shanley, I had no parental guidance. But I learned then through mostly trail and error and I admit some snakes may have suffered from that. (Not badly, I was very responsible) But all in all I took rather good care of my animals. But that is the exception to the rule for 10 year olds. So honestly, it's not a good idea to leave snakes in kids care until they are much, much older. And even then depending on the individual I would still make sure they where taking care of them.

And Shanley. ;) Most kids aren't as responsible as you are at your age. Definantly the exception to the rule.

[Cobra Kai]

Sorry if I wasn’t very clear on how this was going down. I too, am totally against irresponsible pet owners who impulse buy do to a whim or fad and dump it in their kid’s laps. This is precisely why there is such a dilemma in animal shelters today. If I could I would have my own animal rescue/sanctuary and the first on my crusade list would be the American pit bull terrier. :D

Of course the kids that young don't actually participate in the care of the animals. They are too young at 5 or 6. The snake is the responsibility of the parent, even at 13 or 14.

I got my daughter a snake when she was 2. I take care of him, and I use him for breeding, but when she is old enough to move out of the house, if she wants to take Sammy Snake with her, she is welcome to...it's her snake. If she doesn't want to, of course I will continue to care for him, but she at least has the option.

Thank you tyflier…that’s exactly what I’m trying to do. I believe you’ve got to expose children at an early age and it’s up to them if they dig it or not. At the very least they will see how to care for a living creature. It’s a good life lesson. And no matter what happens, it will always be my responsibility. My wife will make sure of that. :mad:

i am fully responsible for all my snakes and my fish and turtle.... i got a job outside of the house to pay for them, i feed them clean cages ect. my parents have no part whatsoever in their care....... and i'm 15....... and i've had snakes like this since i was ten with no parental guidence.... i ask my parents if i can keep them in the house and that's about it....

I grew up much like you Snake lover 3-25. My parents let me have my first pet when I was 10 years old too. I rescued a three-toed box turtle from a fish market in San Francisco Chinatown. Poor little guy was going to be turtle soup. So we bought him and I packed him up in a picnic basket and brought him home on the plane back to Boston. And that’s how it all started. Teddy The Turtle is no longer with us. :( But after 25 years, I still have two of his old roommates. A Florida (Terrapene carolina bauri) & a Tree-toed (Terrapene carolina triunguis). Granted…I wasn’t your average 10 year old. But maybe one of my boys will be like me. Isn’t that the wishes of every parent? If they are into pets or not it’s ok. And if my boys want to take the the turtles when they move out, it is totally up to them. If not, that’s cool too. They’ll always be MY turtles. Maybe someday my boys can give these turtles to their kids.

[Lori P]

I'm so impressed with your research and thought into this, too!!!! I'm going to agree on the cornsnake because it best suits your needs at this time. And big kudos to you for being such a responsible parent and pet owner!!!!!!

[Cobra Kai]

Thanks Lori. Doing research is one of my hobbies. Pretty nerdy...huh? But seriously, I'm having a blast learning from you guys. This is wicked fun! And the parent thing I’m still learning about too. :D

[infernalis]

Our 12 year old daughter has a small zoo in her room.

However, I do take charge and keep an eye on them all.

We constantly tell her to spend time with her critters, it's about teaching responsibility.

My son has a mouse in his room, and he's only 9. However he is only here on weekends, so I have a mouse in my son's room:cool:

He does a good job changing down the tank, placing toilet paper tubes in there, and making sure his little friend is happy as he can.

Neither have snakes.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

im 14 and i have 16 snakes :D

Sorry, but I belive 2 years is too young for any snake.
My 13 and 15 year old daughters have their own snakes, but I still feel liable for those.
My younger children ( 6 and 8) must not have their own snakes yet, but of course they are allowed to handle some of mine frequently.
So no vote from me;)

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

CORN CORN CORN CORN CORN Pantherophis guttatus guttatus!!!!!

Did I mention CORN?

Steve

[zooplan]

Waynes view seems to be "normal" to me.

Reed and Shanley, you are special persons;) and you found this place to share your hobby,
where is no difference if you are 14 or 104 when you share your experiences (and PHOTOS:D)

To all those how started at about ten years of age,
are you sure you had no parental guidence?

Maybe it was hard to get permissions...
Maybe family holidays were planed with hidden meanings...
Maybe there were a lot of friendly questions about you critters...

There are a lot of ways hidden guidance can be performed.:cool:

BTW: my nephew got a garter snake when he was twelve.
He bought a book, watched, my keeping, and had to fight hard for his wish,
all before permission to require the snake,
but it took less than a year and the snake went back to me:(

[drache]

I know I didn't do more than help take care of critters when I was a kid
that's why I never got more than a hamster, who eventually escaped
we had big critters though and as soon as I was old enough to lug a bucket, I was given the opportunity to earn money during vacations to take over the horse care - an opportunity earned by sticking to the commitment
I had to have been around ten by that time

in the case of Mikhaila - I'd never get her anything I'm not willing to take care of, and she really has never taken care of anything beyond a few enthusiastic attempts that petered out pretty soon
now she's committed to cat litter duty though and doing a decent job
if she keeps it up, she can get her first pet she'll be completely responsible for herself
so far a lion-headed bunny is at the top of the wish list

[Lori P]

Oh, gosh, those lion heads are so stinkin' cute!!!!!! They kill me. Rhea, Rhea, can I have a lion head too??? I promise to feed and clean and take care of it..... but it has to live at your house 'cause my doggies will eat bunnies...

[Aundrea]

OMG I want a Lion Head Bunny BAD!!!!!!! They are just soooooo CUTE!!!!! My Reagle Beagle would chase it and scare it.. UGH I just LOVE their little faces covered in all that fur LOL :eek::D When you get the Lion Head POST PICS LOL:eek:

[sschind]

I have raised hundreds of baby corn snakes and almost as many baby variable king snakes (Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri) and in my opinion the variables win hands down. In my experience they are much more calm as babies. A little more laid back as adults and they don't get quite as long (but they make up for it by being a bit thicker) Once they are feeding, which is the biggest problem with them, they have every bit as good of a feeding response as a corn.

My personal favorites are the Mt. Kings (Lampropeltis pyromelena, and Lampropeltis zonata) but I would not recommend them for a first snake for children so young. My baby pyros are awesome and there are few prettier snakes IMO and although I personally find them just as easy as corns they can have some feeding issues that can be a bit disconcerting at first (like ball pythons they sometimes have a tendency to go off feed in winter months, and they are a bit more skittish than the variables.

I vote for a Mexican Mountain Kingsnake. Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri

[drache]

I'm curious as to what snake the person who voted "other" has in mind

[GartersRock]

To all those how started at about ten years of age,
are you sure you had no parental guidence?

Maybe it was hard to get permissions...
Maybe family holidays were planed with hidden meanings...
Maybe there were a lot of friendly questions about you critters...

There are a lot of ways hidden guidance can be performed.:cool:


Well this is certainly true for a lot I am sure. ;) But I can tell you I fought tooth and nail the whole way, no friendly questions. :p BUT. For them to finally give in and put up with my animals there was support in that. Even if I did have to constantly fight it. In the end, it was "allowed". :cool:

[GartersRock]

You are only 14 Reed??

[tyflier]

...I vote for a Mexican Mountain Kingsnake. Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri ...

A Mexican Mt. King is a Lampropeltis mexicana mexicana.

And I would not recommend any Mt. king species(mexicana, pyromelana, zonata) nor would I recommend ANY of the mexicana complex(thayeri, greeri, mexicana) or even and alterna as a first snake. They are quite docile and generally quite small. This much is true. But they can also be a right pain in the hind quarters as far as being picky and going off feed in the winter. They also tend to be less hardy and not quite as forgiving of beginner mistakes as cornsnakes are. Small errors in humidity and temperature regulation *could* be very detrimental, especially to greeri and thayeri.

Alterna seem better suited to beginners, given the extremely harsh and variable climates they natively habituate...but they can be picky S.O.B.s and go off feed for no apparent reason even under good conditions.

All in all...I agree that the mexicana complex(including alterna, even though they have been elevated) and the Mt. kingsnakes are among the most beautiful naturally occuring snakes available. I just don't agree with them as a beginner snake, unless the beginner has close access to someone with experience they can rely on for help and insight...

[prattypus]

See, all these points get the gears turning. All I knew when I was younger was garters. Caught 'em, read about 'em, and kept 'em. But when I was ready to get back into it, I didn't even think about another snake for me. My defualt was to hit up garters once again. Maybe it's time to branch out of the familiar and see what else is worth my attention and time.

[sschind]

A Mexican Mt. King is a Lampropeltis mexicana mexicana.

And I would not recommend any Mt. king species(mexicana, pyromelana, zonata) nor would I recommend ANY of the mexicana complex(thayeri, greeri, mexicana) or even and alterna as a first snake. They are quite docile and generally quite small. This much is true. But they can also be a right pain in the hind quarters as far as being picky and going off feed in the winter. They also tend to be less hardy and not quite as forgiving of beginner mistakes as cornsnakes are. Small errors in humidity and temperature regulation *could* be very detrimental, especially to greeri and thayeri.

Alterna seem better suited to beginners, given the extremely harsh and variable climates they natively habituate...but they can be picky S.O.B.s and go off feed for no apparent reason even under good conditions.

All in all...I agree that the mexicana complex(including alterna, even though they have been elevated) and the Mt. kingsnakes are among the most beautiful naturally occuring snakes available. I just don't agree with them as a beginner snake, unless the beginner has close access to someone with experience they can rely on for help and insight...


A quick google search for Mexican Mountain Kingsnake actually turns up no results. I found several hits for the Mexican kingsnake being listed as Lampropeltis mexicana mexicana but I have also found several hits for L.m.m listed as the San Luis Potosi kingsnake and I have never heard the SLP kingsnake referred to as a "Mexican Mountain Kingsnake" Perhaps both are accepted common names for this snake. It would appear that the more commonly accepted common names for the Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri would be either the variable kingsnake or Thayer's kingsnake but I found no listings that would indicate that Mexican Mountain Kingsnake is or is not an acceptable common name for L.m.t. I have seen it listed as such in a couple of places and I seen no evidence that it is an incorrect usage of a common name. However, I am not an expert in the field of taxonomy or the usage of common names so if you say that the Mexican Mountain Kingsnake is in fact L.m.m rather than L.m.t then I will defer.

Regardless, My experiences obviously differ from yours. I have sold hundreds of kingsnakes and corn snakes and I have not had a single report of either of the kingsnake species being any more difficult than the corns. As I said, I would not recommend the pyromelena for reasons I have indicated but I have not had any of same experiences experiences with the variables that would change my opinion. It has been my experience that once the baby L.m.t are established feeders they are every bit as reliable as the corns. You obviously have experience with this group of snakes, quite possibly much more experience than I, but that doesn't change the fact that my experiences indicate to me that a Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri would in fact make an excellent choice for a beginner snake. My thayeri's and pyro's are kept in a rack system right next to my corns and I have noticed no difference in their needs or their reactions to the identical care provided. All three eat, (with the exception of the occasional fast by the pyro's as indicated) and reproduce with equal vigor.

Would a corn snake make a better choice for the OP? Perhaps, but he was looking for options and opinions and in my opinion a variable kingsnake is a perfectly acceptable option. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[drache]

as I said - none of my kings are nippy and they're the first snakes I'll give to kids to hold

[Garter_Gertie]

Pratty, you NEED a Hoggy! They can be difficult eaters - some are, some aren't - but they are ghe GREATEST snakes!

[sschind]

If anything, I think this debate has proven that there is no such thing as a "best beginner snake" What is best for one may not fit the needs of others. Corn snakes, garter snakes, king snakes, milk snakes, ball pythons, boa constrictors, all of these can make excellent first snakes if the conditions for keeping each one can be met. And for my fellow smelt eater Gertie I will add hoggies to the list.

I know the OP had a few guidelines that would certainly preclude many snakes as being the best for him so much of what I will say now does not apply in this case, but it is just something for you to think about the next time someone asks "what is the best beginner snake?"

One of the things I think most people overlook when suggesting a first snake is the "want" factor. What kind of snake do you want? No snake is going to be good for you if you don't want it. If you let someone talk you into something you don't want there is a much greater likelihood that you will end up not taking care of it. I had a lady come in with her 16 year old son looking for a snake. He had his heart set on a ball python, she was adamant that he wasn't going to get one. He had done his homework and I felt that there was no reason why he wouldn't succeed with a ball but since mom was buying she won out and he got a corn snake. Less than a year later she brought the snake back because he wasn't taking care of it.
"See, I knew he wouldn't take care of it, its a good thing corns are so tough, the python probably would have died the way he looked after it" the kid moved out of his parents house the day after his 18th birthday and on his way to his new apartment he stopped in and bought a ball python. That was 6 years ago. He now has 11 ball pythons. He has bred albinos, pastels and spiders and he is working on pieds and ghosts, and his mom gushes over what he has accomplished every time she comes in and every time she tells me how wrong she was in insisting he get a corn snake. She even has one of his snakes. The first one he ever hatched out. I know, I know, its a real Hallmark moment. I'll pause a bit to allow you to wipe away the tear.

Seriously though, the very first question I ask when people come in to buy a snake is "what kind of snake are you looking for" If someone were to come in and say "I am looking for a snake" I think it would be very short sighted and irresponsible for me to to say " Well, the corn snake is the best beginner snake there is" without getting more information.

Obviously, just because someone wants something really bad doesn't mean it is the best one. I wouldn't recommend a rock python or a green anaconda for anyone much less a beginner no matter how bad he or she wanted it. Some sort of common sense has to come into play.

Of course, it should go without saying that people looking for a first snake should not be considering anything other than a well established, healthy and reliably feeding animal. Statements like "Ball pythons can be tough to get feeding" really are not relevant because no one in their situation should be considering a snake that is not already feeding. Some things that may make a snake unsuitable (hard to get feeding for example) are inconsequential once the snake is established. Also, the periodic fasts that some snakes can go on is also not necessarily a bad thing if the person is aware of it. Certainly it can be disconcerting for the first time ball python owner when, after two years of eating every week, his snake suddenly refuses a meal in late October and does not eat again until mid March. I have people calling me every fall, some in full panic mode, expressing concerns over this very issue. I ask a few questions, sometimes they bring the snake in, and once any irregularities are ruled out I can fairly confidently advise them not to worry, the snake will start eating again when it is ready. If they are aware of this potential development in advance, the shock is less severe when and if it comes.

I have sold corns, kings, mt. kings, balls, and boas as first snakes to people. All of them had demonstrated to me that they knew what was involved in the purchase and none of them led me to believe that they wouldn't succeed. Did they all work out? No, of course not. People change their minds. People lose interest. Other things become more important in their lives. Still, we can't know that and it is up to us, when they come to us for advice, to give them the best advice we can. We can't give them the best advice if we don't know all their needs and we certainly can't give them the best advice if we are not open minded enough to know that there can be more than one answer to some of the questions.

[sschind]

Sorry, I should just add to the above that I am not pointing any fingers or anything like that. This is a very helpful forum and I am reasonably certain that most of the people who took the time to read through my long winded post are already aware of these things. I just had a little time to kill while some tanks were draining.

[Garter_Gertie]

sschind... You nutcase! "Hallmark moment"!!! And yes, I did have to bat my eyes to clear them. You goofball!

Very nice statments. I don't feel you pointed a finger, particularly at me. Kenabec and Niizh came eating f/t and had - thus spaketh the breeder - for quite a few meals. However... Being Hoggies which are prone to go off feed and given the little boogers still can tell winter's here, I'll be damned if they're eating at all. Kenabec went back to the breeder for reconditioning to f/t. And Niizh, that I couldn't bear to have away from me for a day, let alone 2-3 months of reconditioning, I broke down and did the live thing - dumping him and pinkie in his deli cup, covering the two o'them and running and hiding...

Garters and Hoggies kind'a are my two beginner snakes as I got into them at the same time. I agree so much with what you said. For me Hoggies are good beginner snakes as I love them to pieces. Garters, too.

I'm learning a lot as I move along because both species have different requirements in so many ways. I don't find it a challenge or difficult because both species I couldn't imagine living without.

I like so much how you can see that a person's heart is involved. You may have no interests in Hoggies and so they'd not be for you even though I tossed the idea out there. So glad you can realize that - and so very glad especially for your customers...

Hope we read of more "Hallmark Moments." (wiping away a tear)

[sschind]

You may have no interests in Hoggies and so they'd not be for you even though I tossed the idea out there.

Actually, the last snake in my collection I would ever consider getting rid of is an Eastern Hognose A friend of mine had a WC female lay a clutch of eggs for him while he was holding her for a photo shoot. They all hatched, he gave me one and let the rest go where he had found the mom. I got him on mouse pinkies right off and and now he eats rat pinks like there is no tomorrow. He is always a hit at the shows I do because I can always get him to do his cobra impression. He's too good natured though to play dead and there is no way I would torment him enough to make him do it.

[Garter_Gertie]

Hoggies are not dummies. Even captives, used in state park snake presentations, won't do the roll-ove-and-play-dead fun deal.

BUT! Within seconds of letting them go. There you are! Dead snakes!

They realize quickly when it behooves them to or not to play dead.

Long-term captives and CB and CBB, forget it. Sadly. It's one of the most enduring aspects of Hoggies. So fun to play with them in the wild!

Dave had a school group of 150 kids and he'd found an Eastern Hoggie while he had them out on a prarie hike. And 150 times that Hoggie rolled over and played dead!

The one he found and used in his snake presentation, he got his face down in the Hoggy's face and that little mother wouldn't even do the closed-mouth-strike! Play dead? FORGET IT!

Hoggies. You GOTTA love'um!

[drache]

mine does the puff, hiss,and strike thing when he's about go into shed
I guess he feels more insecure then; PSS - pre-shed syndrome
yeah, he becomes hissy

[GartersRock]

Mine hoods and hisses. But never plays dead. I wish I could see one play dead in person. :D:D

[tyflier]

sschind-

I wouldn't say I have "more" experience...just "different" experiences. I certainly don't claim to be the most knowledgeable king keeper around, and absolutely my experiences could vary from yours without either of us being "wrong".

As for L.m.m....the entire complex is in constant flux. San Luis Potosi kings are a locality, like a Langtry or Highway 277 alterna. I have always referred to "generic" mex mex as Mexican Mt. Kings or Mex Mex, just to avoid locality confusion. That doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong...common names change from place to place. Heck, some people call a Scarlet King a Scarlet Milk...and both are technically correct, as it is a triangulum ssp.

Even more, some people still classify alterna as a ssp. of the mexicana complex, which, to my knowledge, hasn't been so for a number of years, taxonomically, even though range maps would indicate that it is still a Mexican kingsnake.

C'est la Vie...the nature of taxonomy...

As for beginner snakes...I have had my share of tribulations with thayeri, greeri, and alterna. Certainly once they become established as strong feeders, they typically do well. But I have had troubles with these subspecies, even as "established" adults, that I wouldn't wish on an enemy. That is the reason for my post. Not to say you are wrong...just a different perspective and point of view.

And I am of the opinion that a topic like this deserves to have as many opinions as possible to give the OP as many otions as possible. And every opinion is a good one. As you said above...ANY species can be a GREAT beginner species, providing the proper care requirements are met. On the flip side of that coin...I know people that have killed cornsnakes because of bad husbandry. It all comes down to husbandry, and how well the snakes are cared for. Do the right thing for the snake, and it will thrive, regardless of the amount of experience a keeper has or the species of the snake.

Heck, I know people that have been successful with retics and wild caught hoggies as their first snake. It's just a matter of knowing the species and it's needs...

[Cobra Kai]

If anything, I think this debate has proven that there is no such thing as a "best beginner snake" What is best for one may not fit the needs of others. Corn snakes, garter snakes, king snakes, milk snakes, ball pythons, boa constrictors, all of these can make excellent first snakes if the conditions for keeping each one can be met. And for my fellow smelt eater Gertie I will add hoggies to the list.

I know the OP had a few guidelines that would certainly preclude many snakes as being the best for him so much of what I will say now does not apply in this case, but it is just something for you to think about the next time someone asks "what is the best beginner snake?"

One of the things I think most people overlook when suggesting a first snake is the "want" factor. What kind of snake do you want? No snake is going to be good for you if you don't want it. If you let someone talk you into something you don't want there is a much greater likelihood that you will end up not taking care of it. I had a lady come in with her 16 year old son looking for a snake. He had his heart set on a ball python, she was adamant that he wasn't going to get one. He had done his homework and I felt that there was no reason why he wouldn't succeed with a ball but since mom was buying she won out and he got a corn snake. Less than a year later she brought the snake back because he wasn't taking care of it.
"See, I knew he wouldn't take care of it, its a good thing corns are so tough, the python probably would have died the way he looked after it" the kid moved out of his parents house the day after his 18th birthday and on his way to his new apartment he stopped in and bought a ball python. That was 6 years ago. He now has 11 ball pythons. He has bred albinos, pastels and spiders and he is working on pieds and ghosts, and his mom gushes over what he has accomplished every time she comes in and every time she tells me how wrong she was in insisting he get a corn snake. She even has one of his snakes. The first one he ever hatched out. I know, I know, its a real Hallmark moment. I'll pause a bit to allow you to wipe away the tear.

Seriously though, the very first question I ask when people come in to buy a snake is "what kind of snake are you looking for" If someone were to come in and say "I am looking for a snake" I think it would be very short sighted and irresponsible for me to to say " Well, the corn snake is the best beginner snake there is" without getting more information.

Obviously, just because someone wants something really bad doesn't mean it is the best one. I wouldn't recommend a rock python or a green anaconda for anyone much less a beginner no matter how bad he or she wanted it. Some sort of common sense has to come into play.

Of course, it should go without saying that people looking for a first snake should not be considering anything other than a well established, healthy and reliably feeding animal. Statements like "Ball pythons can be tough to get feeding" really are not relevant because no one in their situation should be considering a snake that is not already feeding. Some things that may make a snake unsuitable (hard to get feeding for example) are inconsequential once the snake is established. Also, the periodic fasts that some snakes can go on is also not necessarily a bad thing if the person is aware of it. Certainly it can be disconcerting for the first time ball python owner when, after two years of eating every week, his snake suddenly refuses a meal in late October and does not eat again until mid March. I have people calling me every fall, some in full panic mode, expressing concerns over this very issue. I ask a few questions, sometimes they bring the snake in, and once any irregularities are ruled out I can fairly confidently advise them not to worry, the snake will start eating again when it is ready. If they are aware of this potential development in advance, the shock is less severe when and if it comes.

I have sold corns, kings, mt. kings, balls, and boas as first snakes to people. All of them had demonstrated to me that they knew what was involved in the purchase and none of them led me to believe that they wouldn't succeed. Did they all work out? No, of course not. People change their minds. People lose interest. Other things become more important in their lives. Still, we can't know that and it is up to us, when they come to us for advice, to give them the best advice we can. We can't give them the best advice if we don't know all their needs and we certainly can't give them the best advice if we are not open minded enough to know that there can be more than one answer to some of the questions.
BRAVO…BRAVOOOOOOOOOOO!!! :D

I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to explain what options are available to me. I certainly appreciate hearing your personal experiences with these species. You guys & gals ROCK!!!