Garter vs. Corn

[Cobra Kai]

Hey my snake experts,
I ‘m thinking you guys may be a little bias. LOL! But seriously, I’ve noticed most of you have many different breeds. So if anyone can help me decide, I know you guys can. Now I’m torn between a Garter and a Corn for our first snake. I want to get a hardy breed that my little boys (5 & 2) will enjoy. So I was wondering what the difference in personalities and behavior are?
Thanks! :D

[Hornets23]

Hey there. I have both and I love both. There are different advantages to each. Garter snakes are interesting and active...but they are generally not the easiest to hold. My corn snake is a lot slower and a lot more calm. If you want something that your kids can handle...I would go with a corn. However if youre planning on looking more than touching....the garters are a lot of fun to watch.

[ssssnakeluvr]

Hey my snake experts,
I ‘m thinking you guys may be a little bias. LOL! But seriously, I’ve noticed most of you have many different breeds. So if anyone can help me decide, I know you guys can. Now I’m torn between a Garter and a Corn for our first snake. I want to get a hardy breed that my little boys (5 & 2) will enjoy. So I was wondering what the difference in personalities and behavior are?
Thanks! :D

both have great personalities and behaviors...most of us would reccomend garters...:rolleyes: baby corns can be a little tough in my experience to get started feeding....some baby garters can be too, but they have a more varied diet and can be easier to get started. baby garters can be real small so handling wouldn't be reccomended for them. adult garters would be ok, however they are very active snakes. they don't just sit there like boas and pythons....very easy for a little one to drop and injure. garters don't get as big as corns either....making for easier cage requirements....an adult male garter will average around 2 feet long and be happy in a 10 gallon tank, females around 3 feet, and best in a 20 gallon long. corns can get up to 5 feet long and need at least a 20 gallon long. hope this helps you in your decision to buy a garter snake.....:cool:

[Hornets23]

Just give in and get one of each lol.

[Cobra Kai]

Yeah…this is the stuff I’m looking for. Thanks for the great info. Is it true that garters are diurnal and corns are nocturnal? And does it make a big difference?


hope this helps you in your decision to buy a garter snake.....:cool:
You're too funny man. :D

[Cobra Kai]

Just give in and get one of each lol.
Now that's the best advise yet! A blue puget & a coral snow. YUM!

[Sid]

I keep both Garters and Corns as well and will continue to keep them both. The corns are slower and generally more easily handled, but for the larger part simply stay hidden all the time. Garters on the other hand are far more active, out and exploring a great deal more than the corns. I guess the bottom line, if I could only have one or the other, I will always have the garters.

[Stefan-A]

Had a corn for a while and I'm not getting another one anytime soon. It wasn't interesting in any way at all (I'd place it somewhere between "rock" and "log"), but you could carry it around, pet it, hug it and call it George. My two female wandering garters are about as easy to handle, but they're far more often out in the open and moving around. The corn only came out after dark and only for a few minutes.

[Cobra Kai]

Had a corn for a while and I'm not getting another one anytime soon. It wasn't interesting in any way at all (I'd place it somewhere between "rock" and "log"), but you could carry it around, pet it, hug it and call it George. My two female wandering garters are about as easy to handle, but they're far more often out in the open and moving around. The corn only came out after dark and only for a few minutes.
Since I've been hanging out here on this cool forum, I've noticed everyone says garters are "interesting". I find that intriguing. Stefan-A, I noticed you mentioned wandering garters are easy to handle, is there any particular garter species that's really known for that?

[Stefan-A]

Not that I know of. I couldn't even say that the females I have are typical wandering garters in that regard.

[Lori P]

Since I've been hanging out here on this cool forum, I've noticed everyone says garters are "interesting". I find that intriguing.

It's really one of the best ways to describe them. They are so active... if you give them an enclosure full of things to climb and explore, they will!! They are out and about and active and curious and just a huge pleasure to watch. :)

[drache]

yeah
they are awake when we are
I have one corn and he is pretty much like a log
I've given up stressing over cage furnishings for my corn, the kings, and the hogs - that's just eye candy for me - all they want is something to lie under
the garters however like to be entertained
they love stuff to climb on and new stuff to explore, watching what's going on around
perhaps one of their more appealing qualities is not so much that they are interesting, but that they are interested

[Stefan-A]

I wonder about racers, are they (at least) as active as garters?

[Snake lover 3-25]

i had corns..... i loved them.... but i'll never choose them over garters...... they were quite hard to get to feed and boring to watch..... on the other hand garters are awesome..... my female eastern is soooo tame that she comes out when i walk by the cage and tries to get out so i can hold her.... she'll sit on my neck for any period of time wile i'm doing anything and everything.... eating, watching tv, doing hw, taking a walk...... and much much more..... i love her to death...... and she is wc so she's not even as tame as i believe she could have been if i had had her since she was a baby.... but she is kind of hard to feed..... the other garters aren't..... but that's mostly because she will refuse to eat ANYTHING that i have touched with my hands...... she won't bite something with my scent...... i love her:D

[infernalis]

I wonder about racers, are they (at least) as active as garters?

From what I have been told, (black) racers are feisty, active and off the chain.

Shannon has experience keeping them, she will be on tonight.

[Stefan-A]

From what I have been told, (black) racers are feisty, active and off the chain.
I've heard the same thing, actually. They sound great, don't they? ;)

[Cobra Kai]

yeah
they are awake when we are
I have one corn and he is pretty much like a log
I've given up stressing over cage furnishings for my corn, the kings, and the hogs - that's just eye candy for me - all they want is something to lie under
the garters however like to be entertained
they love stuff to climb on and new stuff to explore, watching what's going on around
perhaps one of their more appealing qualities is not so much that they are interesting, but that they are interested
I like what you guys are telling me. It sounds like garters are so unappreciated in the world of herps. :( Truly unsung heroes!

[infernalis]

I've heard the same thing, actually. They sound great, don't they? ;)


That's exactly why I want one.

Black mamba without the venom:cool:

I heard a story (prolly just that) about a wild black racer that nipped at a motorist while changing a tire, the snake was reportedly moved several hundred feet away, only to return for another nip at the human.

[adamanteus]

I've had a couple of Racers in the past. The can be feisty, but not always.

[infernalis]

I think Garter Vs Corn was on the sci fi channel once.:cool:

It would HAVE to be better than Python Vs Cobra.

[MoJo]

I have mostly corns but started with garters. The only reason I have mostly corns is because I am fascinated by the genetics.

I think everyone has given you excellent feedback on the pros and cons of both. I think corns will be easier for your boys to handle. If you decide the buy a corn make sure you buy one from a reputable breeder, the snake has eaten at least 3 - 5 times and it is eating frozen thawed pinkies.

I have/had red sided garters, eastern blacknecks, checkered garters and a ribbon snake. Some have been muskers, some biters and some dog tame and would just hang out with you. There was no rhyme or reason to their "personality". They are more interesting to watch in their enclosures but I have some that stay hidden. I have also had more feeding issues with my garters who like to take winter breaks from eating despite the fact that their temps and lighting does not change.

Besides the fact that an adult corn will need a larger enclosure than a garter the corn will have a longer lifespan. Their needs are otherwise pretty similar.

I think one of each is the way to go! (And I happen to have an adult and a baby hyposnow (coral snow) available....;) )

[Cobra Kai]

I think one of each is the way to go! (And I happen to have an adult and a baby hyposnow (coral snow) available....;) )
Great advice. I've been talking to Kathy L, SMR, & Poppycorns. Do you have any pictures? :D

[MoJo]

Shoot me an email at jo@mojoherps.com .

[kurtnagel]

yeah
perhaps one of their more appealing qualities is not so much that they are interesting, but that they are interested

Well said, that certainly describes Rosa my W/C radix. She will come out of her hide when she sees me walking by or working in the kitchen (her cage is on the bar between the kitchen and family room). She is often just cruising around. I'm going to get her a larger enclosure soon, so she has more space to explore.

[Cobra Kai]

That's exactly why I want one.

Black mamba without the venom:cool:
Yes...I've always thought that too when I watched the late great Steve Irwin wrangle a black mamba.

[Cobra Kai]

yeah
they are awake when we are
I have one corn and he is pretty much like a log
I've given up stressing over cage furnishings for my corn, the kings, and the hogs - that's just eye candy for me - all they want is something to lie under
the garters however like to be entertained
they love stuff to climb on and new stuff to explore, watching what's going on around
perhaps one of their more appealing qualities is not so much that they are interesting, but that they are interested
I see what you mean now. Today I brought my kids to Petco to look at the snakes. And the two corns that the employee called creamsicles (actually snows LOL!), were hiding under their hide. While the eastern ribbon snakes were all out sitting on top of the plants looking directly out to see what was up. They were very interested with their surroundings just like you guys said. GOOD STUFF!

[infernalis]

If your local petco has snows for the normal $29-39.95, go get one, they won't last long.

A pure white snow corn goes for bit more than that.:D

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Hey Cobra Kai!

I have been breeding corns for 7 years now, and although I would tend to agree that garters are more fascinating to observe than corns, I personally would not recommend them for young children. In general, corn snakes are easier to handle.

I currently have 7 corns (1 normal, 1 amel, 1 hypo motley, 1 amel motley, 1 pastel motley, 1 anery, and 1 snow). I also have 6 normal motley "super hets" left from this year's breeding. Next year I will be downsizing my corn population; even though I also am fascinated with the genetics, corn genes have been over-bred (and often irresponsibly), and there is an increasing % percentage of birth or health defects being found in pet stores (kinked spines, etc.).

I also have 3 garters (1 Coast, 1 CA Red-sided, and 1 Oregon garter) - all wild-caught... So far I have only had the Coast stop musking me when I try to hold them. My Oregon (they're snappers!) still nips regularly.

In regards to cage requirements, I might disagree with some on the forum. I concur that corns do need a terrarium that's about 20 gallons minimum, as they reach adulthood. All of my adult corn cages are 20 gallon tanks or larger hand-made cages. As for the garters, this is where I would tend to up-size the posted recommendations, and many might not think it necessary. Since garters are a lot more active, I like to set their cage minimum at 20 gallons as well. In fact my yearling Coast looks limited in his 20. My yearling Oregon actually has a 45 gallon tank! All my native wild-caughts have natural habitat-specific decor.

Oh! And in regards to racers. I personally have not yet kept a racer, but I will say that the Western Yellow-bellied Racers we have here are speed demons and will out maneuver and pass a garter any day! Catching a garter is generally a light challenge; getting hold of a racer can be a chore!

Hope you find the right snake!

Steven Krause

P.S. Hope you have some other local options where pet stores are concerned. Petco is infamous for their lack of specific knowledge, care, and often have sick animals. Affiliates of our herp society have persistently filed complaints with corporate and have had stores be put on notice. Funny how the cages all are suddenly clean after that happens, and their corns are no longer fed crickets!

[drache]

Since garters are a lot more active, I like to set their cage minimum at 20 gallons as well. In fact my yearling Coast looks limited in his 20. My yearling Oregon actually has a 45 gallon tank!
definitely agree with that
a 20G long (not a regular 20G) is the minimum for an adult garter

[Cobra Kai]

Hey Steven,
Thanks for sharing your experience and thoughts on the matter. I wish I could get a ton of snakes like you guys. Then I could compare. That would be awesome, but for now I have time to make a wise choice for one at this time. So I appreciate everyones advice. It's a lot to consider. Good advice about Petco too. Just like when I bought my American Staffordshire terrier, I actually enjoyed studying pedigrees, talking to top breeders in the country, & going to shows before I bought Elvis. I try not to impulse buy. I really like going to a master of his craft. Like Kathy L. & Scott F. And please tell me about your favorite breeders as well. So I'm having a blast doing my research and learning about snakes from you guys. Again, please keep your advice coming, because I need it. Now, if I can only get my wife on board we'll be all set. :rolleyes:

[Cobra Kai]

If your local petco has snows for the normal $29-39.95, go get one, they won't last long.

A pure white snow corn goes for bit more than that.:D
$39.95 snows were tempting. :eek:

[drache]

there are several breeders on this forum and there may even be one near you, depending on what part of the country you're in
Scott Felzer seems to be the biggest commercial garter breeder outside this forum, and he has excellent snakes, but if you're going for a pet, I highly recommend getting one from a small breeder here on the forum, who gives them a little more individualized attention early on, and possibly even gets them feeding on f/t pinks

[infernalis]

$39.95 snows were tempting. :eek:

Probably won't be there when they go on sale.

About 4 times a year, The price drops $10 if you have a petco card.

We got my Corn last November on sale.


http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/cy/cy1.jpg

[Cobra Kai]

there are several breeders on this forum and there may even be one near you, depending on what part of the country you're in
Scott Felzer seems to be the biggest commercial garter breeder outside this forum, and he has excellent snakes, but if you're going for a pet, I highly recommend getting one from a small breeder here on the forum, who gives them a little more individualized attention early on, and possibly even gets them feeding on f/t pinks
Good point. I like your reasoning.


Probably won't be there when they go on sale.

About 4 times a year, The price drops $10 if you have a petco card.

We got my Corn last November on sale.


http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/cy/cy1.jpg
Sweet amel Wayne! I like the pattern. I love reverse okeetees too. Ya...know what has caught my attention with the garters lately? The Super Christmas Albino Plains. WOW! Are those the same as red albinos? Maybe they will come down in price someday. What do you guys think of them?

[infernalis]

You mean these... Hope to have some to offer, there is a few months of growing yet.

Very pretty.

Also getting into Snow Radix next season. they are so white:D I have an Iowa snow het, and a friend has me top of his list for a pair from his litter.http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/radix/navidad.jpg

[reptile3]

very nice Wayne.... those are soo cool looking.

[infernalis]

Got 2 out of this cup. The het female is eating whole pinks already and is over a foot long. The male was (Ahem is) a fussy eater. He always seems to need at least one live fish too start him into the eating mode.

When I got him he had refused food altogether.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/radix/CHreadix.jpg

then this happened.... Now he eats, just fussy about it.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/radix/radixsnow.jpg

[reptile3]

Is that a frog? whoa:eek:




then this happened.... Now he eats, just fussy about it.

http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/radix/radixsnow.jpg

[infernalis]

That's a wee baby toadlet, was a polliwog a week before.

[Stefan-A]

The Super Christmas Albino Plains. WOW!
Probably the ugliest snakes out there. :D

[drache]

Probably the ugliest snakes out there. :D
true - and so delicately put

[Stefan-A]

true - and so delicately put
Well, it is just an opinion. :)

[Cobra Kai]

You mean these... Hope to have some to offer, there is a few months of growing yet.

Very pretty.

Also getting into Snow Radix next season. they are so white:D I have an Iowa snow het, and a friend has me top of his list for a pair from his litter.http://www.danceswithreptiles.com/radix/navidad.jpg
AWWW…SOOKIE SOOKIE NOW!!!
That’s what I’m talkin’ about Wayne. You have every snake I want. That’s awesome! Those albinos are total stunners. I might have to hold out for that breeding someday. :D I hope Mr. Toad new how he did it all for a great cause. I’ll always remember him when I have my albino neonate someday. LOL!

BTW…speaking about your ridicules collection, what ever happened to your eastern milks?

[drache]

Well, it is just an opinion. :)
oh my - and there I really believed it was a fact for a moment
I know I am biased toward the less neon end of the spectrum - or something not quite so . . .
I think I'll let that go for now

[Stefan-A]

oh my - and there I really believed it was a fact for a moment
Wise ***. :D

[adamanteus]

Oh, but it IS a fact!:D

[Stefan-A]

I wonder what an anerythristic tetrataenia would look like.. ;)

[infernalis]

BTW…speaking about your ridiculous collection, what ever happened to your eastern milks?

Still have a few left.

They all ate, some are sold and gone, down to 4 looking for homes.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

haha, in response to the discussion converning corns at petco... you can get them as babies at shows for about $17 now. That includes amels, anery's, snows and all of the more common morphs now. That is how much I sold the two I had at the show for and even at that price... they sat there almost all day! It is getting to the point where too many cornsnakes are being bred and no one can sell them all! I'm not referring to the higher end stuff, but your normals (most beuatiful corns of all), amels, candy cane anerythristic zig zagged whoseewhatsit are getting close to the breaking point. I love my corns and I will always have a few but I am not gonna get into breeding them heavily because I fear that cornsnakes are becoming the next iguana of the reptiles as pets trade... they're everywhere, they're ridiculously cheap and it's very hard to find GOOD homes for them anymore, so a lot of wholesalers are selling them off cheap which in return will cause many people to see "cheap snakes" and impulse buy for their kids, and the snakes will suffer for it. I was very lucky to place the two babies I had for sale at the show for $17 in good loving homes... and they still have a little sister that needs a home too! I saw quiet a few vendors go home that day with 99% of the corns they took with them!

Having said all of that.... I DO support owning cornsnakes and I wholeheartedly beleive that they are the number 1, supreme, absoultey BEST starter snakes. Many people will say ball pythons... which is definitely not true seeing as they are much more needy and finicky. I would say garters except for the fact that baby garters are tiny and very fragile, and garters are much higher maintenance than cornsnakes with their needing to eat a few times a week and being so active where as corns being fossorial and having a slower digestive tract are usually the better of the two choices for the first ever pet snake. Corns will tolerate beginner mistakes more easily than most garters.

Here's an that I wrote about 2 years ago for reptastic concerning cornsnakes... it was well accepted over there!



Many people that are new to the snake world want to start off slowly. They are looking for an affordable, docile, hardy, active snake that feeds well and reaches a reasonable size. Cornsnakes have every single one of these things going for them!
If you have never owned a snake before, I suggest you go with a cornsnake for the following reasons:
Cornsnakes have a great disposition:I have yet to come across an aggressive adult corn. While a few select hatchlings may have a bit of an attitude problem at first, they are easily pacified and will eventually grow up to be a sweet, gentle animal. My corns are the only snakes I would ever trust 100% not to bite other people. They are also great for child interaction; their sweet temper, moderate size and vivid colors make them by far the best snake to use while educating children.
Cornsnakes feed well:Even as babies, corns almost always readily accept food, a rodent or two a week and you've got a complacent, fat, happy pet. They are also easily trained to take pre-killed or frozen/thawed rodents, Some of my corns are so used to eating dead prey that they flee at the sight of a live mouse!
Cornsnakes are hardy animals:They do not succumb easily with illness (provided, you have to keep their enclosures warm, clean and dry) and even when they do, they are good fighters and will usually bounce back with the proper treatment.
Cornsnakes are active: If you're new to snakes, you're probably going to want a snake that you're going to see at some point. As long as you've got light on them, corns will be up and about for a good part of the day. Morning and toward dusk are when you are most likely to see them.
Cornsnakes grow to a reasonable size: Not too big, not too small, depending on the sex, corns mature at an average length of 4-5 feet, and shouldn't EVER exceed 6 feet.
Cornsnakes are not needy:As long as you provide your corn with a warm, dry, roomy environment, have water available at all times, feed it once a week, and give it a hide-box, your corn should thrive. No need for constant attention to humidity, no specialized diet, no fast metabolism or seasonal feeding changes(there are a few exceptions) to worry about (i mainly refer to the ball python's notoriety in going off feed during fall and winter here)
Cornsnakes come in a huge selection of colors: except for green and blue, you can get a corn in just about any color- silver, orange, red, yellow, lavender, and more... and all of them are relatively affordable! (when you know where to shop)
And yes, before anyone starts badgering me, I know ball pythons make a good beginner's pet as well, but not quite as good as a corn. Ball pythons are known to go off feeding for long periods of time, which may worry some people. . Balls are also nocturnal, and babies are rather shy and finicky about their food. They are also highly unforgiving of what are known as "beginner's mistakes".

[Stefan-A]

I'm definitely a biased when it comes to corn snakes.

It's not because I have anything (not much anyway, just a few minor things I already mentioned) against the snake, but because of its status around here. People churn out corns like there's no tomorrow and if a beginner turns up somewhere, that's the only species they've ever heard about and it's the only one anybody ever recommends, as if there weren't other species that are as user friendly as corns. Whether or not there are, is not even interesting; Corns are the only snakes that are consistently available and therefore there's no point in even considering anything else. Unless you're already looking for something specific, in which case you go to Germany. :rolleyes:

I know I'm not the only one around here (i.e. Finland) who's getting sick of corns. Some of the members on a local forum even went as far as to bleep the name "corn snake" whenever they had to use it. :D I didn't really understand that negative attitude then, but I think I'm starting to. ;)

But this is just a little local phenomenon.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm definitely a biased when it comes to corn snakes.

It's not because I have anything (not much anyway, just a few minor things I already mentioned) against the snake, but because of its status around here. People churn out corns like there's no tomorrow and if a beginner turns up somewhere, that's the only species they've ever heard about and it's the only one anybody ever recommends, as if there weren't other species that are as user friendly as corns. Whether or not there are, is not even interesting; Corns are the only snakes that are consistently available and therefore there's no point in even considering anything else.

I know I'm not the only one around here who's getting sick of corns. Some of the members on a local forum even went as far as to bleep the name "corn snake" whenever they had to use it. :D I didn't really understand that negative attitude then, but I think I'm starting to. ;)

But this is just a little local phenomenon.

Stefan, I to an extent, feel this way, but for me, it's not anger towards the snakes, rather, towards the people that mass breed them the way they do. I can't possibly take a stance such as "i hate cornsnakes" because it's not the snake's fault they are so darned easy to breed and care for. I do understand where you are coming from and just how fristrating it is. I get pretty ticked walking past table after table of tiny deli cups stacked to the ceiling with baby corns, ball pythons, and BCI's. Even if they are the most common, I love cornsnakes for what they are.. a hardy, pretty snake that is easy to care for and generally does not bite the hand that feeds. Having said that, I am highly an advocate of NORMAL corns, which I beleive to be the most beautiful of all, breeders can have their albino candy cane striped motley caramel anery snowflake blizzard chocolate swirl flavored corns.... show me the okeetee's and the miami's! Don't get me wrong.. the genetics are fascinating and WELL worth studying and breeding out, but they are not for me. I am happy with my okeetee's and my anery :D

I do recognize that there are other snakes that are just as easy as corns... but since corns are readily available... they take the cake. There are a lot of rat snakes that are easy to keep, and lots of others... but they are just not as readily available. Cali kings are right there with corns, but the thing with them is... they often decide that your hand is dinner and I have pried many a king snake off my hand... and many people simply take that the wrong way... that the snake is mean. The fact is that kingsnakes often think with their tummies first :rolleyes:

And by writing all this, I am not putting garter snakes down in any way, I mean hell, I specialize heavily in them and love them more than any other snake times infinity. BUT... I simply do not feel that they make the best choice for a starter snake. They are a decent one, but seeing as they are so demanding food wise, and their young are so small and fragile (not to mention the size of their litters and the fact that they can surprise unknowing owners with a litter of babies before they have any knowledge and any time to prepare), and the fact that they are so energetic just makes them less than the optimal choice for the first snake. Do I think garter snakes are the best snakes to own? Yes. Do I think they are the best beginner snake? nope.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, I to an extent, feel this way, but for me, it's not anger towards the snakes, rather, towards the people that mass breed them the way they do. I can't possibly take a stance such as "i hate cornsnakes"
I don't hate the snakes, I hate the situation. :)


Having said that, I am highly an advocate of NORMAL corns, which I beleive to be the most beautiful of all, breeders can have their albino candy cane striped motley caramel anery snowflake blizzard chocolate swirl flavored corns.... show me the okeetee's and the miami's! Don't get me wrong.. the genetics are fascinating and WELL worth studying and breeding out, but they are not for me. I am happy with my okeetee's and my anery :DI would actually consider anery corns "normal" as well, because they are supposedly relatively common in the wild. But we seem to have pretty much the same taste in corns apart from that one. I think normals and miamis are the best looking ones.

[Cobra Kai]

And by writing all this, I am not putting garter snakes down in any way, I mean hell, I specialize heavily in them and love them more than any other snake times infinity. BUT... I simply do not feel that they make the best choice for a starter snake. They are a decent one, but seeing as they are so demanding food wise, and their young are so small and fragile (not to mention the size of their litters and the fact that they can surprise unknowing owners with a litter of babies before they have any knowledge and any time to prepare), and the fact that they are so energetic just makes them less than the optimal choice for the first snake. Do I think garter snakes are the best snakes to own? Yes. Do I think they are the best beginner snake? nope.
Thanks for breaking it down like a fraction and I'm buyin' what you're sellin'. :D

Ok...do you kids mind if I throw another one into the mix? What do you think about Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum? Are they good beginner snakes? :confused:

[Garter_Gertie]

(clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap... hands now hurt)



Stefan, I to an extent, feel this way, but for me, it's not anger towards the snakes, rather, towards the people that mass breed them the way they do. I can't possibly take a stance such as "i hate cornsnakes" because it's not the snake's fault they are so darned easy to breed and care for. I do understand where you are coming from and just how fristrating it is. I get pretty ticked walking past table after table of tiny deli cups stacked to the ceiling with baby corns, ball pythons, and BCI's. Even if they are the most common, I love cornsnakes for what they are.. a hardy, pretty snake that is easy to care for and generally does not bite the hand that feeds. Having said that, I am highly an advocate of NORMAL corns, which I beleive to be the most beautiful of all, breeders can have their albino candy cane striped motley caramel anery snowflake blizzard chocolate swirl flavored corns.... show me the okeetee's and the miami's! Don't get me wrong.. the genetics are fascinating and WELL worth studying and breeding out, but they are not for me. I am happy with my okeetee's and my anery :D

I do recognize that there are other snakes that are just as easy as corns... but since corns are readily available... they take the cake. There are a lot of rat snakes that are easy to keep, and lots of others... but they are just not as readily available. Cali kings are right there with corns, but the thing with them is... they often decide that your hand is dinner and I have pried many a king snake off my hand... and many people simply take that the wrong way... that the snake is mean. The fact is that kingsnakes often think with their tummies first :rolleyes:

And by writing all this, I am not putting garter snakes down in any way, I mean hell, I specialize heavily in them and love them more than any other snake times infinity. BUT... I simply do not feel that they make the best choice for a starter snake. They are a decent one, but seeing as they are so demanding food wise, and their young are so small and fragile (not to mention the size of their litters and the fact that they can surprise unknowing owners with a litter of babies before they have any knowledge and any time to prepare), and the fact that they are so energetic just makes them less than the optimal choice for the first snake. Do I think garter snakes are the best snakes to own? Yes. Do I think they are the best beginner snake? nope.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have a pair of t. triangulum.... and well technically by the books, these are kingsnakes. I have heard babies are hard to start... I acquired my pair this year... I caught them as hatchlings! They are doing great for me.. sucking down f/t pinkies... but they are quite shy, I don't ever seen them and they don't really care to see me either!

[tyflier]

Thanks for breaking it down like a fraction and I'm buyin' what you're sellin'. :D

Ok...do you kids mind if I throw another one into the mix? What do you think about Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum? Are they good beginner snakes? :confused:
Eastern Milks can be picky eaters, but if you get captive bred from a reputable breeder, you shouldn't have any problems. Being in the Kingsnake genus, they are just as easy to care for as corns, but lack some of the aggressive feeding responses of other kingsnakes in the genus, like Floridas(my personal faves...but not a beginner snake, IMO) and Calis(also not a great introduction...unless you enjoy being tasted occasionally).

And y'all need to back of the cornsnakes. It ain't their fault that too many people without a clue breed them. And it ain't their fault that the potential for morphs is simply staggering...second to none, in fact. With more single recessive morphs, it's no small wonder everyone and their brother wants to breed the next new combination...heck, I breed corns, and I don't breed normals...I breed morphs. I also HIGHLY recommend them as the best beginner snake, bar none. For reasons that have probably been mentioned a dozen times in this topic(I haven't actually read the whole thing...I just noticed how long it was getting and decided to check it out...), they are simply the easiest snakes to learn with...they forgive you for your mistakes, and they are relatively inexpensive...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Eastern Milks can be picky eaters, but if you get captive bred from a reputable breeder, you shouldn't have any problems. Being in the Kingsnake genus, they are just as easy to care for as corns, but lack some of the aggressive feeding responses of other kingsnakes in the genus, like Floridas(my personal faves...but not a beginner snake, IMO) and Calis(also not a great introduction...unless you enjoy being tasted occasionally).

And y'all need to back of the cornsnakes. It ain't their fault that too many people without a clue breed them. And it ain't their fault that the potential for morphs is simply staggering...second to none, in fact. With more single recessive morphs, it's no small wonder everyone and their brother wants to breed the next new combination...heck, I breed corns, and I don't breed normals...I breed morphs. I also HIGHLY recommend them as the best beginner snake, bar none. For reasons that have probably been mentioned a dozen times in this topic(I haven't actually read the whole thing...I just noticed how long it was getting and decided to check it out...), they are simply the easiest snakes to learn with...they forgive you for your mistakes, and they are relatively inexpensive...

well said, Chris! I wholeheartedly agree! was not saying I don't like the morphs out there.... was just kinda stating my prefernece for normals:D


but lack some of the aggressive feeding responses of other kingsnakes in the genus
my female is a good example of this... but my male is worse than most cali kings! He attacks his dead pinky and re-kills it!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

haha, in response to the discussion converning corns at petco... you can get them as babies at shows for about $17 now. That includes amels, anery's, snows and all of the more common morphs now. That is how much I sold the two I had at the show for and even at that price... they sat there almost all day! It is getting to the point where too many cornsnakes are being bred and no one can sell them all! I'm not referring to the higher end stuff, but your normals (most beuatiful corns of all), amels, candy cane anerythristic zig zagged whoseewhatsit are getting close to the breaking point. I love my corns and I will always have a few but I am not gonna get into breeding them heavily because I fear that cornsnakes are becoming the next iguana of the reptiles as pets trade... they're everywhere, they're ridiculously cheap and it's very hard to find GOOD homes for them anymore, so a lot of wholesalers are selling them off cheap which in return will cause many people to see "cheap snakes" and impulse buy for their kids, and the snakes will suffer for it. I was very lucky to place the two babies I had for sale at the show for $17 in good loving homes... and they still have a little sister that needs a home too! I saw quiet a few vendors go home that day with 99% of the corns they took with them!

Having said all of that.... I DO support owning cornsnakes and I wholeheartedly beleive that they are the number 1, supreme, absoultey BEST starter snakes. Many people will say ball pythons... which is definitely not true seeing as they are much more needy and finicky. I would say garters except for the fact that baby garters are tiny and very fragile, and garters are much higher maintenance than cornsnakes with their needing to eat a few times a week and being so active where as corns being fossorial and having a slower digestive tract are usually the better of the two choices for the first ever pet snake. Corns will tolerate beginner mistakes more easily than most garters.

Here's an that I wrote about 2 years ago for reptastic concerning cornsnakes... it was well accepted over there!

Yes, 5 gold stars to SnakeLovinBabe! I couldn't agree with you more!

And thank you Stefan-A for clarifying that you "hate" the situation, and not the snake! (I was beginning to wonder...) Perhaps herp groups in Europe could start working on a "slow down on the corns" program! The U.S. corn phenomona is beyond over-saturated.

I was once overwhelmed by the wondrous beauty of corn genetics (it's still wondrous! :), but after breeding a few triple recessive combos I quickly realized a difference in specimen quality; I never had runts or vertebral damage in my normal morph clutches. Snakie, my normal "mutt" of 12+ yrs. was the studd-muffin to many a healthy clutch, and whose progeny - being only normal or amel, may I say, 2 years ago were no problem to sell. Now I can't even move this year's Normal Motley (het Hypo A, het Anery A, het Amel) clutch. I love my corns; they are the best-behaved for my presentations at the local schools and our natural history museum. My eventual down-sizing of corns (they will all find good homes!) will (somewhat seemingly contrary to the ever-so faint biases heard) indeed lend space to an increase in garters and/or other local natives. I have learned corns... I am ready to move on.

I could go on and on about corn genetics, but we've weakened Pantherophis guttatus genetically in our inbred quest for ever-new flavors and colors. So, I ask what's real? I too have checked myself and have better begun to appreciate the "normals". Long tediousness redundantly set straight... CORNS ARE THE BEGINNER SNAKE. Remember this started with Cobra Kai's asking what's good for a 2 and a 5 year old! I would not regularly subject any Thamnophis to that age, no matter how well-behaved.

In regards to Lampropeltis. Milks and Common Kings can be fairly manageable, but some, like my 2 CA Kings can be fussy and irregular eaters ("Let's fast for 2 months and then eat like a pig for 2 weeks!" or "Let me have one baby rat now, let me spit out the next 2, then feed me nothing but mice for 3 months, and then I'll fast for a while, but I won't eat any mice the next time I eat until I'm sick of rats again..." Don't feed kings other herps unless you want to risk that being the only thing they eat from then on..), great to handle (all mellow-like) one day, and then all pissy and bitey the next! [Does my use of parenthesis bug you all? Let me know! They seem to be attacking me!

Lest I continue to ramble... until....

Steven

Oh, Stefan-A, I would only consider an anery corn to be "normal' due to the fact that this (still) recessive morph does not really impede its ability to camouflage itself. Albinos are usually easy pickings! I would not (of course just being technical) use "normal" if there were even a recessive subpopulation completely separated from THE normal corn wild-type; this might likely imply a sub-specific population and sister clade, but then our application of terminology would be out of context. We must remember that the debate is still on as to the ssp. or species status of both western groups (Emory's or Great Plains Rat and the Intermountain Rat Snake) - these guys a basically anery, but that is the wild-type... if ya cross an Emory with a normal Corn ya get Chocolate! Rather unattractive snake! Not recessive anerythrism. Anyways... I love all you guyz's and galz's minds.

This is a fun forum. Sorry I don't always make the time to tune in!

[drache]

my experience with corns is limited, but I do have four kings, and since kings and milks are now pert of the discussion I thought I'd input
two of them are Cali kings, and although babies have shaken their tail at me, and rodent smell on my hand can induce a feeding response (biting), other than that they are very very manageable
I've only once had feeding problems with a king and that was after I had let him get way obese, so it can rightfully be considered a spontaneous diet - he simply wasn't hungry for a few months
just last week I noticed that two of my kings were getting a bit chubby and I need to reduce the feeding - so no - cant's say they're difficult eaters
two of my medium sized ones will eat on the couch while I clean their cage
one thing about kings though - I don't think they come in as many designer colours as corns, so if that's important, well . . .

[Cobra Kai]

Wow…this is a hot thread! Very thought out thorough answers. I really appreciate you letting me tap into your brains so I can learn from your experience. You guys & gals are a huge help. :D:D:D:D

[snakesRme]

I do realize that the corn morphs are getting way out of hand...but I do love my Okeetee corn. He is ridiculously easy to feed (ALWAYS hungry), loves handling and is very easy to keep in FL. (We have the perfect temp for him without too much fuss. An under tank heater for the cold three days that we get and all is good, lol.) He is gorgeous and a very easy first snake, I would think.