Technical "Morph" question

[infernalis]

Firstly, I do not really like the term "Morph" it does not fit. (What do they change into??)

However, Is a FLAME really a "Morph"

I would believe flames to be a common red Eastern Garter.

Forget "Extreme" or any variations, Just plain ol flip the rock and there it is flames.

Thanks..

[crzy_kevo]

oh geeze u brought it here too hold on let me paste some stuff lol

[Stefan-A]

Morph just means form (or shape). It doesn't need to change into anything.

If anybody's interested:
Morph (zoology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morph_(zoology))

[crzy_kevo]

but what causes them to be red it would be a gene which is dominant the offspring will not come out as hets becuase of the dominant gene but what causes an albino eastern to be albino well that is also a gene the only difference is it is a recessive gene which will produce hets if the snake is not bred to another which carries that gene

[Zephyr]

From my experience a flame just has an exaggerated amount of "Northeastern" phase coloration. Nothing more. The color is so vivid that it overtakes the snake's natural browns and greens.

[infernalis]

Morph just means form (or shape). It doesn't need to change into anything.

If anybody's interested:
Morph (zoology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morph_(zoology))


Thanks once again Stefan for pointing out yet more great reading materials.

The terminology has a new meaning, AND I learned a bit about genetics just now.

[Loren]

"color phase" could be used too. Just my opinion, would be that I tend to call them a phase or variation when its still a wild type coloration, but it becomes a morph when its more or less man made through custom breeding. Again, thats just in my mind. :)

[Stefan-A]

"color phase" could be used too. Just my opinion, would be that I tend to call them a phase or variation when its still a wild type coloration, but it becomes a morph when its more or less man made through custom breeding. Again, thats just in my mind. :)
I see what you mean, but so far, there aren't any man-made snake morphs at all. All we really do is selective breeding. What we make happen in captivity could well happen in the wild too, we just increase the odds a bit.

[infernalis]

So anyways what brought this up was a discussion on inbreeding.

I can see where it would be necessary to inbreed to increase the odds with say albinism, but I cannot see a viable reason where it would be NECESSARY to inbreed flames or even Pugets to get more of the same.

An acquaintance bred sibling Iowa Snow Radix and it yielded a litter of 100% snows.

Had he bred the snows to unrelated radix, the results would have been quite different.

[Garter_Gertie]

I was going to say I think like Loren re color phase/morph until reading Stefan's post. It was a "DOH!" (smackng self in forehead) moment.

But the more I read it the more I think - in my opinion - it does uphold the 'morph' thought. Yes, it *could* happen in nature, but it isn't and that's what selective breeding is - selection of specifics to obtain specifics, in this case a 'morph' in my terminology.

So, I guess I still think along the lines of man-made being a 'morph' and natural selection being a color phase.

[Stefan-A]

Yes, it *could* happen in nature, but it isn't and that's what selective breeding is - selection of specifics to obtain specifics, in this case a 'morph' in my terminology.
Actually, it does happen in nature. The only difference is in how likely it is to happen.

[infernalis]

Actually, it does happen in nature. The only difference is in how likely it is to happen.

Gertie -

Without trying to sort out the mathematical probability (odds) the likelihood of an albino male and female finding each other in nature is close to nil.

However when a breeder desires a litter of albinos, we can "introduce" the mates to each other.

Every single morph available originated with the "forced" pairing of at least one wild specimen.

Folks have been known to pay out insane sums for wild caught albinos to gain fresh genes for breeding projects.

[Garter_Gertie]

But, Stefan, natural selection is not man-made selective breeding. Two subspecies sharing a given area and breeding is naturual selection, not selective breeding. Selective breeding does not happen in nature.

I think Dekay's example of the snows and two albinos mating are good examples.

[infernalis]

Gertie, "selective breeding" happens in nature every day.

Mating rituals help many animals SELECT a breeding partner.

Darwin's law mandates that weak and inferior specimens are "selected out" by predation.

There are examples of snake colonies where certain colorations survive and others fail, resulting over time in that colony becoming all the same color.

The main difference is in a breeders hands it is MAN that does the selecting. In the wild, circumstance selects who is to breed.

The human race is a good example, a couple hundred years ago (yesterday in evolutionary terms) children born with deformities rarely survived, hell some folks just tossed the baby to the wolves.

As our race has "evolved" people with deformities or handicaps can lead a complete life cycle.

In nature, a crippled deer cannot outrun the coyotes, so it gets naturally removed from the breeding program.

[Stefan-A]

the likelihood of an albino male and female finding each other in nature is close to nil.
Far from nil, actually. It happens all the time and with time, it becomes almost inevitable.

[Stefan-A]

But, Stefan, natural selection is not man-made selective breeding. Two subspecies sharing a given area and breeding is naturual selection, not selective breeding. Selective breeding does not happen in nature.
It really isn't relevant whether selective breeding occurs in nature. It's only a question of adjusting the odds in our favour.

Selective breeding is actually a part of natural selection, but it's a longer story.

[Garter_Gertie]

It really isn't relevant whether selective breeding occurs in nature. It's only a question of adjusting the odds in our favour.

Selective breeding is actually a part of natural selection, but it's a longer story.

Now I'm totally, 100% lost.

I'm still not seeing it, Stefan and Dekay. I'm still stickin' with my current opinion on this one.

[infernalis]

Stefan, please elaborate.....

Let's forget about the folks standing over the den opening and grabbing every "non normal" specimen that emerges....

[Stefan-A]

Gertie, "selective breeding" happens in nature every day.

Mating rituals help many animals SELECT a breeding partner.

Darwin's law mandates that weak and inferior specimens are "selected out" by predation.

There are examples of snake colonies where certain colorations survive and others fail, resulting over time in that colony becoming all the same color.

The main difference is in a breeders hands it is MAN that does the selecting. In the wild, circumstance selects who is to breed.

The human race is a good example, a couple hundred years ago (yesterday in evolutionary terms) children born with deformities rarely survived, hell some folks just tossed the baby to the wolves.

As our race has "evolved" people with deformities or handicaps can lead a complete life cycle.

In nature, a crippled deer cannot outrun the coyotes, so it gets naturally removed from the breeding program.
Wayne, that's a gross misrepresentation of natural selection. I really don't know where to begin, maybe it's best if I just point you towards Gene-centered view of evolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene-centred_view_of_evolution)

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, please elaborate.....

Let's forget about the folks standing over the den opening and grabbing every "non normal" specimen that emerges....


Now I'm totally, 100% lost.

I'm still not seeing it, Stefan and Dekay. I'm still stickin' with my current opinion on this one.

Where did I lose you? :)

[infernalis]

You didn't lose me anywhere...

Wayne is hungry for data...

"Input must have input"

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n40/stu_s2/JohnnyNumberFive-715587.jpg

[Garter_Gertie]

Selective breeding does not occur in nature; it's only done by man. That is if you accept the given scientifc definition:

"Dictionary (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/) » S (http://www.biology-online.org/d/s.htm) » Selective breeding (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Selective_breeding) Selective breeding

Definition
noun
The intentional breeding (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Breeding) of organisms (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Organisms) with desirable trait (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Trait) in an attempt to produce offspring (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Offspring) with similar desirable characteristics or with improved traits.

Supplement
It involves breeding techniques such as inbreeding (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Inbreeding), linebreeding and outcrossing.



Selective breeding - definition from Biology-Online.org (http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Selective_Breeding)


http://www.biology-online.org/i/1.gif

[Stefan-A]

You didn't lose me anywhere...
Well, if I need to elaborate something, then I obviously lost you somewhere. :)

[Garter_Gertie]

I'm okay, now, Stefan. I've read and re-read and I'm still sticking with what I believe to be true.

[Stefan-A]

Selective breeding does not occur in nature; it's only done by man.
I do agree with you on this, selective breeding does not occur in nature (if mankind is excluded from the definition of nature). Unless you see it from the perspective that all we are doing, is making a mutualistic relationship possible. We're not the only species doing that.


I'm okay, now, Stefan. I've read and re-read and I'm still sticking with what I believe to be true.
You may still however be believing in something that isn't true. :)

[Garter_Gertie]

Here's another site: Natural Selection

Natural selection - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection)

[infernalis]

sorry, so many replies so quick....

Love hot discussions

[Garter_Gertie]

Stefan, I think you, also are confusing natural selection with selective breeding. Previously you'd not mentioned humans - who are very selective - and we were discussing snakes.

Has the topic changed or the equation been added to? Humans, yes are selective, or I think subjective, when partnering. I think we need to not split hairs and tangent. We were talking about snakes and their morphs; humans at that time were not involved.

Unless I've missed some new idea on the subject - which is possible - I still feel what I think to be true, is true.

[Garter_Gertie]

Never mind!

[infernalis]

Well, if I need to elaborate something, then I obviously lost you somewhere. :)


No Not LOST, confused...

Lets just say a colony of 1000 snakes, just how many of them are going to be albino??

Now of that thousand, lets be generous and say there are 4 albinos in there, that is only a 1 in 250 that are albino.

OK DUH I do feel a bit dumb, the resultant hets will raise that number up, and left unmolested by man, the numbers will increase over time.

Yet once again Stefan makes a great point!

Anything further will have to wait, I need to go make some money....

[infernalis]

Weird... I think more than one post disappeared, Dekay.

Nothing disappeared MK, we have all been talking so fast, that what you expect to be one post up from your last, is actually several up the chain.

I reacted so fast, As did you (I edited within 30 seconds) that what I expected to see one post up, was really way up.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, I think you, also are confusing natural selection with selective breeding. Previously you'd not mentioned humans - who are very selective - and we were discussing snakes.
Now you lost me. ;)

Selective breeding is an extension of natural selection. By that, I mean that aberrant snakes, for example, have traits that actually make us favour them (I could just as well use dogs as an example). The same trait may not necessarily be an advantage under different circumstances, but under the circumstances that we have created, it is. Albinos are conspicuous and predators spot them easily. As a result, they occur much less frequently than normal coloured snakes in the wild. However, we favour them because of the trait that made them conspicuous in the first place.


Has the topic changed or the equation been added to? Humans, yes are selective, or I think subjective, when partnering. I think we need to not split hairs and tangent. We were talking about snakes and their morphs; humans at that time were not involved. Well, the reason why I'm talking about humans here, is because I'm trying to illustrate why there's no relevant difference between a naturally occurring albino individual and one that is born as a result of selective breeding.

[Garter_Gertie]

I don't agree with that train of thought, Stefan. My understanding makes me see you as comparing apples and oranges.

Well, the reason why I'm talking about humans here, is because I'm trying to illustrate why there's no relevant difference between a naturally occurring albino individual and one that is born as a result of selective breeding.

How do you support that? It's very relevant; one's unintentional the other's deliberate.

[Stefan-A]

comparing apples and oranges.
Both are fruits, both have a similar reproductive strategy, both have been cultivated etc. I've never fully understood why you couldn't compare apples and oranges. ;)


How do you support that? It's very relevant; one's unintentional the other's deliberate.Now where do I begin.. :) I don't consider it relevant, because regardless of what brought the two individuals together, the mechanisms through which the trait becomes visible or simply gets passed on to the next generation remains the same. Intention doesn't influence the outcome, so it's not relevant.

In fact, I contend that it's incorrect to call one intentional and the other unintentional. Intention is involved in both situations, although not in the same form. Or in neither, depending on your perspective.

[adamanteus]

Fascinating stuff...... but what is the actual question?:o

[Stefan-A]

Fascinating stuff...... but what is the actual question?:o
I think we all have different questions here. :D

[adamanteus]

In my view, a 'Flame' is simply a (very attractive) naturally occurring colour phase, which can be continued or enhanced (or even reduced!) in captivity through selective breeding. As can any phase.

[Garter_Gertie]

Both are fruits, both have a similar reproductive strategy, both have been cultivated etc. I've never fully understood why you couldn't compare apples and oranges. ;)

Now where do I begin.. :) I don't consider it relevant, because regardless of what brought the two individuals together, the mechanisms through which the trait becomes visible or simply gets passed on to the next generation remains the same. Intention doesn't influence the outcome, so it's not relevant.

In fact, I contend that it's incorrect to call one intentional and the other unintentional. Intention is involved in both situations, although not in the same form. Or in neither, depending on your perspective.

You're killing me!!! Too FUNNY!!!:D:D:D

I've ssssoooo often had the exact same thoughts regarding the comparing of apples and oranges! I love it!

Okay intentional is the wrong word; deliberate is what I meant. And yes, there are different deliberates in natural selection and selective breeding.

[Garter_Gertie]

In my view, a 'Flame' is simply a (very attractive) naturally occurring colour phase, which can be continued or enhanced (or even reduced!) in captivity through selective breeding. As can any phase.


YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!

[prattypus]

http://i351.photobucket.com/albums/q470/RosesofNight/excedrin-cz.jpg
Anyone else need some?

[Snake lover 3-25]

lol me too:D i can never understand these genetics things lol i don't even try anymore:D

[Loren]

Wow! this thread exploded since I went to bed! I will have to read it all later after work :)

[crzy_kevo]

holy cow i go to play world of warcraft for a few hours and then there are 35 more posts lol

[infernalis]

In my view, a 'Flame' is simply a (very attractive) naturally occurring colour phase, which can be continued or enhanced (or even reduced!) in captivity through selective breeding. As can any phase.

Thank you James!!!:D

[infernalis]

Wow! this thread exploded since I went to bed! I will have to read it all later after work :)

The author has a way of "stirring things up":D