Breeding Progress

[Cazador]

Sid and all,
Any of yours mate yet?

[Stefan-A]

Just curious, how can you tell, if you haven't actually witnessed it? Not that I'm expecting it to lead to anything this year, but I am preparing for it..

[Sid]

Sid and all,
Any of yours mate yet?

Rick, I removed my three adult females one at a time. With the first one the two young males showed no interest in a week. The second one of the males were all over for several days. Now it's wait and see.

Sid

[Cazador]

Stefan,
If you suspect they've mated, you can check the female's cloaca for a yellowish "plug." It stays put for about 2-3 days to prevent other males from copulating with her, although she quickly becomes "unattractive" and unreceptive shortly after mating, anyway. this is due to hormonal and pheromonal changes as a result of the mechanical stimulation of copulation. Send me a PM if you're interested in some literature about it. Then, within 2-4 days, she may, or may not, become "attractive" to males once again (by secreting pheromones).
Rick

P.S. You could also do a cloacal swab to look for moving sperm under a microscope, but uhhh, well, yah!

[Stefan-A]

Any longer lasting changes in the female's (or the male's) behavior?

[Cazador]

The only one that I can think of that you'd notice in captivity is that the male would stop courting her. She's no longer "attractive." BTW "attractive" is a specific term that relates to particular pheromones (vitellogenin) that the female stores in fat (lipid) deposits just under her dorsal scales. During mating, the male releases hormones with the ejaculate that make her unattractive within 15 minutes. Mating then stimulates her to mobilize the vitellogenin. This makes her unattractive for a longer period, during which time wild females would leave the hibernaculum and mating congretations. At about 3 weeks post fertilization, you can feel the young. They feel like little lumps and are closer to the vent than the stomach.

[Stefan-A]

I remember reading about breeders experiences with corns, and that the female might display an increased appetite in the early weeks of the pregnancy, before the eggs start taking up too much space and make digestion difficult. Does the same concept apply to garters and other livebearers?

[Sid]

I remember reading about breeders experiences with corns, and that the female might display an increased appetite in the early weeks of the pregnancy, before the eggs start taking up too much space and make digestion difficult. Does the same concept apply to garters and other livebearers?

Stephan, one the the Easterns I got last spring was gravid when purchased. She ate like a pig up to about four weeks prior to the youngs birth. Then the day after delivery started eating again. My experience only. Others my can give you more insite.

Sid

[Cazador]

I've had very similar experiences as Sid, but I don't think it's a definitive symptom of pregnancy. Most of my snakes eat like pigs after brumation, anyway. Once I can feel young inside a female, I start feeding her more frequently, but smaller portion sizes. Remember, I'm primarily feeding meat strips, so I can make them any size I want. I also cut smaller fish chunks and worms. Anyway, I feed gravid females smaller portions, but I offer food more often. This keeps them eating sometimes up to days before they deliver. I also give calcium/vitamins more often during gestation.

[Stefan-A]

Got around to weighing and measuring the girl yesterday. There has been a 10% increase in weight in just over a month.

I missed my previous length estimate (compared her length to the length of the terrarium and guessed) by 7 mm. Not bad, huh? ;)

[Cazador]

Nice estimate, Stefan. What where the length/weight results?

[Stefan-A]

It's still too small to get pregnant, I hope. Although it does exceed the "length at maturity" given in the book (the fact that they used SVL instead of total length is taken into consideration here). But the length was just over 74cm and the weight was 87g. A month ago I forgot to measure it, but the weight was then 79g.

Could have sworn that I posted that somewhere before, still looking for that thread. Edit: found it. :p I see you have a slightly shorter but significantly heavier concinnus there.

[Cazador]

She's missing a portion of her tail :o.

[Stefan-A]

Gotcha. I guess that's why you're supposed to use SVL. :D

[abcat1993]

Speaking of breeding my dad said it would be OK if I bred garters. I am pretty sure he was serious. Now all I need to do is wait, and get another garter.

[Cazador]

Congratulations Matt!!! He's probably noticed how committed you've been to yours and what good care you've taken of it. You have your dad, and yourself to thank! I'm sure your next one will be a little more "friendly," too.
Rick

P.S. I'm sure he'd change his mind if you try to brumate it this summer in the family refrigerator, though :D.

[abcat1993]

That might be a slight problem with the brumation, because I'm pretty sure the garage is not insulated at all, and it's falling apart, over 30 years old (our house is turning 100 soon), and has a couple hundred year old Oak tree growing through the side of it. And I would have to admit, that doesn't sound like it would trap heat very well. But I can worry about that later, after I get another snake, maybe for my birthday in March or as a late B-day present in May or something.

[Stefan-A]

It's still too small to get pregnant, I hope. Although it does exceed the "length at maturity" given in the book (the fact that they used SVL instead of total length is taken into consideration here). But the length was just over 74cm and the weight was 87g. A month ago I forgot to measure it, but the weight was then 79g.

Could have sworn that I posted that somewhere before, still looking for that thread. Edit: found it. :p I see you have a slightly shorter but significantly heavier concinnus there.
Just another update on this female weight/length issue I keep blabbing about. She's up to 80cm (31.5"), will weigh her next monday or tuesday when I get my scale back, but she's looking pretty big right now. She was in the blue phase when I measured her and she should be shedding today or tomorrow.

Do snakes grow steadily between sheddings, or are there growth spurts just after they shed?

[Nova89]

Do snakes grow steadily between sheddings, or are there growth spurts just after they shed?

That's a good question

[Cazador]

Do snakes grow steadily between sheddings, or are there growth spurts just after they shed?

I don't know. I've never read anything about that. I suspect it would be influenced by temperature, light, injuries/health, reproductive state, food/nutrient availability...

Rick

[Stefan-A]

Wouldn't those factors only play a role if they varied during a cycle? Terrarium conditions are fairly stable.

[Cazador]

Definitely, but they could affect a snake's growth as we manipulate their environment in preparation for brumation or as gestation progresses. I just don't have any specific details about growth rate between shedding, so I'm taking a guess about what might cause growth rates to change. With those exceptions, I suspect that growth rate would be pretty steady. Wouldn't you guys?

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I wouldn't want to speculate. :)

[ssssnakeluvr]

My albino plains is gravid....possibly my red sider also. Iwill be posting pics later (after I take them) :D

[Stefan-A]

Congratulations! When will they give birth?

How early can you tell whether or not a snake is gravid?

[ssssnakeluvr]

Thanks, she is due in the next couple weeks. About half way thru the pregnancy you can see the back end starting to get large. You can also run your fingers down the body squeezing GENTLY (I don't really recommend this unless you are experienced) you can feel the babies.

[Cazador]

Congrats Don. Only one of my T.s. concinnus have bred so far, but I plan to take the blue T. ordinoides out of the fridge in about a week or so. I'm giving them a long (3 months) and cold (~40F) brumation, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

Rick

[ssssnakeluvr]

Thanks! I keep mine down for 3 months also and out in my garage, temps normally stay inthe 40's...had a cold spell at the end of brumation, garage was getting down to freezing so I pulled them out. I think my red sider is gravid also...looking kinda fat!!!

[ssssnakeluvr]

Here she is....just a little pregnant crankiness.....:D Yes, the cage is a mess, but I just got back from vacation and she was posing so nice before I could clean the cage....:rolleyes:

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//504/medium/prego.jpg

[Thamnophis]

She indeed looks like she´s having some babies!
Congratulations.

[reptileparadise]

my god, she's looking pretty pregnant!

my season so far...I've seen my parietalis mate :)...took some shots, i'll try to post them asap. One of the girls mated almost three weeks ago, she's getting pretty big again :D . The other girl isnt very big yet, but she started eatig like a pig, so i'm guessing the male 'hit'.
Noticed something strange...one of my males doesnt show interest in the females what so ever. The other guy tried to have a go with them as soon as the shedding started (the nose had just come off, and he already tried to do his thing).
Mating pics will folow :)
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/dikkedameinhand.jpg

[charles parenteau]

This female eastern was bred 19 january ,the picture is not so good but you can see at the back end she getting big.sometime in the morning I take her for sun bath...until she move.I expect some baby in early mayhttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/isadodo0003.jpg

[reptileparadise]

wow, she looks awesome!

here are some of the 'mating pics'. The male is a bit of in the pics, but I hope a succesfull mating happend wen i wasnt around.

"Love is in the air" (this guy didnt show interest what so ever :S )
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/loveisintheair.jpg

I like it red...:D
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/mancrosstvoorbij.jpg
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s285/reptile-paradise/dichterbij.jpg

[drache]

it's so exciting to see all these beautiful gravid snakes

[charles parenteau]

they are so beautiful !!!! I like it red .

[adamanteus]

Excellent photos guys! I can't wait to see all the baby pictures soon!

[Cazador]

Great photos Sjoerd! He's really "workin' it!" Do you keep them together, or did you just introduce him to her enclosure?

Rick

[reptileparadise]

thnx...i guess we al want to see some babypics!

charles..your snake is really beautifull!!!

I keep them together. They really only mate when the girls have their "spring"shed. Its funny to see how the male goes wild when she has a small crack in her old skin.

[charles parenteau]

Hi tanks for your comment!

This female is wild caught.Look in my album you see the male that I caught at the same spot.http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s152/parenteau/FORTE235044.jpg

[Snaky]

Both are awesome, hopefully there will be a lot of little one's:)

[adamanteus]

She's a nice looking animal for wild caught, Charles.

[Cazador]

Really nice photo, Charles. I see you took it in mid-January! When did you take them out of brumation?

Rick

[Stefan-A]

Just another update on this female weight/length issue I keep blabbing about. She's up to 80cm (31.5"), will weigh her next monday or tuesday when I get my scale back, but she's looking pretty big right now.
She's up to 123 grams now, shed some time between thursday evening and sunday, fed on monday.

[Stefan-A]

My male is trying real hard to mate, but the female is completely ignoring his attempts :D and as far as I can tell, she's not pregnant. He's refusing to eat too and the female ate less than usual last time I fed her.


Just in case somebody more experienced might notice something that I don't. ;)

[Cazador]

The next time she eats, feed her more than usual to stretch her scales apart. It exposes more of the pheromone that drives the males crazy. He'll intensify his courtship if they're still courting. If not, drop their temperature down to about 6C for one night. Return the temp to normal the next morning, and their courtship will re-intensify (unless of course they've already bred).

Rick

[Stefan-A]

He just made himself and the female fall off the branch, landing in the water bowl. I don't think he needs more incentive. ;)

Yeah, I read about that. IIRC, parietalis males were subjected to lower temperatures for a day and a half, then they brought the temp back up and that triggered courtship behavior. About the temperature, is 6C the absolute minimum you should use or is 4C still safe? What are the risks? I assume they should be allowed to completely digest their last meal before you throw them in the fridge.

[Cazador]

I just give a bit more "comfort room" and only drop the temp to around 6C. The last time I did it, the lowest temp actually got to 5C, so I don't think the exact temp is critical. I just wouldn't suggest dropping them much below 4C (for obvious reasons). I also turn off all supplemental heating the day before I drop their temperature, so it simulates a cool day and cold night. I also put them in plastic shoe box at room temperature before putting them in the refrigerator to reduce how fast their temperature falls.

There's no need to allow them to digest completely before such a brief temperature drop. The food won't spoil, and there aren't any ill effects. I just cool them overnight (8-10 hours), and the results are impressive.

[Stefan-A]

I was thinking about them regurgitating the food. Anyway, I think I might give it a try.

[Cazador]

As you said, there's probably no need as long as they're both still active. I use it if their courtship is fading (or done) and they haven't already mated. Then you get about 3-4 more days of intense courtship. As for the food, I've never had a problem, but... I hate to even mention it... I wouldn't feed them on the same day the you put them down.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

Both snakes have now officially gone off feed. The female hasn't eaten for a week and the male hasn't eaten for nearly two. I can't remember the female ever refusing food, she even eats when she's in the blue phase. Comparing her to the pregnant snakes I've seen pictures of on this forum, she's still relatively skinny, though.

I suppose this still belongs under this topic, even if it's on the fine line between breeding progress and the lack thereof. ;)

[Cazador]

At about three weeks is the earliest that I've been able to feel babies. If she's already conceived, she shouldn't still be attractive to him. She redeploys the pheromone (vitellogenin) that stimulates him from her subcutaneous deposits to the yolk sacs after she conceives. That only takes about three days. There's always the scenario of delayed implantation, though.

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I have no idea what's going on with those two.:rolleyes: The male tried to mate with her 3 days ago, but they've both been hiding for the last couple of days. The temperature is still the same as before, he just shed a little over 2 weeks ago and I expect her to start her shedding process in the next week or so, if she sticks to the schedule. None of the usual signs of that yet.

Basically just thinking out loud here. Can't get the whole scenario to fit together. :D
The only thing I can be sure of at 03:45AM, is that if it is pregnant, it's a delayed pregnancy. :D

[Stefan-A]

http://koti.mbnet.fi/thamnoph/photos/pe1.jpg


Ok, so she looks much thicker than the male. :D

[Stefan-A]

Ok. They are connected by their cloakas at this very moment. Looks pretty rough, really hope that the female doesn't hurt the male in the process. :o Is it possible, by the way? After all, he's the one stuck to her by his wee-wee.

http://www.thamnophis.com/thamphotos/data//500/medium/matey1.jpg


Edit: They're finished. The whole thing took just over 15 minutes.

[adamanteus]

Congratulations Stefan......now you just need to count the days until you're a daddy!:D Good luck.

[Stefan-A]

Thanks. :D I'm almost panicing already. ;)

[adamanteus]

Why? You'll be fine. And she'll be fine.

[Stefan-A]

No. First, she'll eat the male, then she'll delay the pregnancy by 4 years, then she'll give birth to 32 headless babies and the last one will get stuck on its way out and kill her.

What can I say, I'm an optimist. ;)

[adamanteus]

Typical day at the office then?:rolleyes: I'm sure everything will go okay, she's obviously a very healthy snake.

[Stefan-A]

I know it will go ok, but you're supposed to panic when you are about to become a "daddy". ;)

[adamanteus]

Have you got the hot towels ready? And the cigar!?

[Stefan-A]

Maybe I should go boil some water? Schedule an ultrasound? Try to come up with names? Decorate the terrarium? Blue or pink? Or a neutral yellow?

[adamanteus]

Names are easy...call one Nemo and the rest Stefan Jnr!:rolleyes:

[Stefan-A]

Names are easy, the hard part will be to tell the difference. ;)

[adamanteus]

Nemo will have a lucky fin!

[Stefan-A]

There will be no Nemo. :D

[adamanteus]

Have you had these snakes since they were very young?

[Stefan-A]

They were less than a year old when I bought them.

[adamanteus]

Exciting times for you then Stefan. What a shame you chose "babies" as the competition topic this month! If only you'd waited.

[Stefan-A]

The theme will come around again. Besides, you never know how successful this mating was.

[Cazador]

Congrats Stefan. It'll be about three weeks before you'll be able to feel lumps (other than food), and about 100 days before they're born (range: about 90-120). I'm happy for you, but you might consider replacing the cigars with "gummy worms." :) Cheers,

Rick

[Stefan-A]

I can pretty much guarantee that I'll feel teeth before I feel any lumps. :D Not that I'm scared of being bit, I'm rather curious about what it feels like, but if it stresses the female that much, then it seems to me like it would be better to leave her alone.

So if my calculations are correct, there might be babies in August (100 days should be around mid-august). Talking parietalis, what time of year would they normally give birth in the wild? Let's say in the northernmost parts of their range.

[adamanteus]

I'm rather curious about what it feels like.

That would depend how tough the skin on your hands is Stefan (presuming you get bitten on the hand). I find that if I don't see the bite, I don't know I've been bitten. But my hands, because of my job, are .... shall we say "leathery"? I guess if I were bitten on the nose it would be a different matter!

[Stefan-A]

Off topic again, but how easy are the babies to feed? Do they recognize pieces of fish, worms or mice as food, or do they need their food to be moving in order to recognize it as something edible?

Just so that I know what to expect in case the mating was successful. ;)

[adamanteus]

Like adults, they're all individuals, with individual characteristics, but generally they'll take food pretty readily, it doesn't need to be moving.

[Cazador]

I think scent is even more important than sight, but motion is an added stimulant. Like James says, some babies will eat without any trouble, and others may refuse it for varying amounts of time.

[Stefan-A]

And she's up to 132 grams (+9 grams in a month), haven't felt her for lumps and the pregnancy doesn't show yet. Has refused to eat anything except worms for a few weeks, took her first (small) fish in a good while on sunday.

The question that you can always read between the lines is: "Is something wrong?" ;)

[Stefan-A]

How soon can you see if the snake is gravid?

[reptileparadise]

The best way to tell, is by looking at her eating behaviour. If things get really wild and she just doesnt stop...she might be pregnant. If she starts to look like a sausage, there's a good chance she is pregnant. If you see her under the heat lamp, with her 'belly up'...she is pregnant.

Good luck!

[Stefan-A]

She's become a really picky eater, which I guess isn't a sign. Only earthworms will do, but she eats as many of them as I can throw in there, Earlier she eould eat as many fish and mice as she could, she's a real bottomless pit. :D And she has spent the last few weeks mostly under the substrate below the heat lamp (it's about 40 degrees on the surface), even when the ambient temperature has been above optimal.

Aren't there any garter pregnancy tests? :D

[reptileparadise]

Hahaha...I wish there were...

I know what you''re talking about...I notice the same with my parietalis, every year...a period of 2 or 3 months in which they dont feed very well...And every year I'm worried. Nothing happens...they keep looking good, they're active...they just wont eat very well.

How old is your girl? (sorry if you already posted the answer...dont feel like going tru the whole topic ;) )

[Stefan-A]

That's the thing, she's not that old. Judging by her size and growth rate, I'd have to guess she's an '05 (maybe an '04, but I doubt it). I know that in the wild, they'll become mature at a size that's smaller than she is, or the second or third year (males the first or second).

I was concerned about the age issue before, but I figured they just wouldn't mate if she wasn't mature.

[drache]

Aren't there any garter pregnancy tests? :D

now there's a whole new market niche