Tess
10-09-2008, 01:40 PM
Okay, wow, this will be one of my first posts here and I hope it doesn't wind up being terribly controversial or anything, but here is the situation.
As some of you may have seen, last week I caught two common garters (sirtalis) out on the front porch steps. My husband was gone at the time and we had long talked about the larger of the two, as he has been a several-years fixture living under the porch, so I retained them in a spare viv to show Pete (husband) when he got home.
I very much fancied keeping one or both, honestly...and I don't really want to get into all of the ethics of the question, but my personal feeling is that the human practice of keeping pets/domesticating animals is what it is, and that it all originates with wild-caught specimens, and that if one doesn't have a moral/ethical issue with keeping ANY pet, one cannot really have an issue with keeping a wild-caught pet that--and this is the important part--can be given a reasonably safe/secure/comfortable life as a pet. This means, in my book, no tigers or grizzlies or anything, but my snakes live pretty darn well compared to their wild-caught brethren, and I don't stay up nights fretting about the ethics of it.
That said...I kept them for a few days and attempted a feeding with pinks. The larger one did not want to eat and did not tolerate handling (so much musking, ha!) while the smaller one ate an earthworm-scented pink happily and readily tolerated some handling (before the feeding, of course--was left to digest after).
This all taken into consideration, and given the size and age of the larger one I thought he/she must be a darn good survivor, so that one was released and I decided to keep the other, smaller one.
So I tweaked the snake's (now called Shannon as we figure that will work for either gender) viv to make it more of a permanent home and was delighted when the digestion went perfectly and the poo looked just fine. I scooped this up in a bag and it is in the fridge now...
Because...obviously, I am going to take Shannon to visit our friendly local reptile vet. The snake isn't at all injured or unhealthy that I can see, and will of *course* be kept in quarantine from my other snakes (corns) for at least six months (not even in the same room/part of the house, stringent no-cross-contam rules, etc). Still, I want to have a fecal float done to see if there are parasites, and to have the snake sexed, and just to get a baseline on health.
So. Time to call the friendly local reptile vet. I did some searching well before I got corns (these were from a reputable breeder and did not get an initial vet visit; I didn't feel it necessary) and found that there were two recommended vets in the area. One was closer to home while the other was farther from home but closer to where I used to live and thus where I still take my ferrets and cats when they need care/checkups. In retrospect, I should have just called the vet at the practice I already love and trust, but I thought I would give the closer-to-home vet a shot since she was supposed to be great with reptiles.
So, I called her to schedule an appointment. She said it was great I was being so responsible but that I couldn't legally keep the garter. Say what? I told her that I had JUST looked at the Wisconsin DNR regulations and my county and township laws and found nothing at all which said that. I explained very patiently that I KNEW this was not a ribbon snake or Butler's Garter, neither of which you may keep in Wisconsin because they are on the protected lists. This was just a plain ol' ThammySirt, for real. She insisted that ALL native reptile species, PER STATE LAW, need to be released into the wild before it gets too cold and may not be retained as pets. I was a little flustered at this point because I could've sworn I read every line of the regs...and I didn't want to argue, so I thanked her politely and hung up.
And went to look at the regs again. Here's a link: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/captive/HerpsRegs.pdf
Now, call me crazy, but according to those regs I can keep up to five adult Thamnophis Sirtalis, no problem. Right? Or am I missing something?
So after I read the regs again, I got a little miffed. The way I see it, if I am not missing something in the regs, one of two things happened. Either 1) This vet is not fully aware of the state regulations concerning captive reptiles OR 2) This vet feels that it is ethically wrong to capture and keep this snake as a pet and was trying to "scare" me into letting it go.
Now, if 1) is true, that's still a bit troubling. They are pretty simple, clear regulations, and I would hope that a reptile vet would be aware of them, or would at least consent that they may have changed since she last looked, or something...? Either way, it doesn't instill me with a lot of confidence.
OR...for the second one, here's the thing: If she feels that way and said, "I'm sorry, in my practice I will not see that garter unless it is injured/sick because I don't feel that it is ethically proper to keep it as a pet," I would have been 100% respectful of that and impressed that she felt strongly enough about it to say so, and would politely thank her and that would be that. But if she was really misleading me because she feels that way...that makes me feel patronized and frustrated and insulted.
I called the state DNR info line to have them answer the question but they were amused and clueless...they referred me to my local game warden. I called him and left him a message explaining my question and asked for a call-back...nothing yet, but this is a busy time of year for the Wisconsin DNR!
I called my "regular" vet and told them what I had and what I wanted, and they scheduled me cheerfully...I love them.
So...thoughts? Input? Am I reading the regs wrong, and does Shannon really need to go out the door ASAP? Was the vet mistaken? Could she really have been trying to fleece me? Is there another possibility I haven't seen? Am I being an awful monster in that I want to keep Shannon as a pet? :(
As some of you may have seen, last week I caught two common garters (sirtalis) out on the front porch steps. My husband was gone at the time and we had long talked about the larger of the two, as he has been a several-years fixture living under the porch, so I retained them in a spare viv to show Pete (husband) when he got home.
I very much fancied keeping one or both, honestly...and I don't really want to get into all of the ethics of the question, but my personal feeling is that the human practice of keeping pets/domesticating animals is what it is, and that it all originates with wild-caught specimens, and that if one doesn't have a moral/ethical issue with keeping ANY pet, one cannot really have an issue with keeping a wild-caught pet that--and this is the important part--can be given a reasonably safe/secure/comfortable life as a pet. This means, in my book, no tigers or grizzlies or anything, but my snakes live pretty darn well compared to their wild-caught brethren, and I don't stay up nights fretting about the ethics of it.
That said...I kept them for a few days and attempted a feeding with pinks. The larger one did not want to eat and did not tolerate handling (so much musking, ha!) while the smaller one ate an earthworm-scented pink happily and readily tolerated some handling (before the feeding, of course--was left to digest after).
This all taken into consideration, and given the size and age of the larger one I thought he/she must be a darn good survivor, so that one was released and I decided to keep the other, smaller one.
So I tweaked the snake's (now called Shannon as we figure that will work for either gender) viv to make it more of a permanent home and was delighted when the digestion went perfectly and the poo looked just fine. I scooped this up in a bag and it is in the fridge now...
Because...obviously, I am going to take Shannon to visit our friendly local reptile vet. The snake isn't at all injured or unhealthy that I can see, and will of *course* be kept in quarantine from my other snakes (corns) for at least six months (not even in the same room/part of the house, stringent no-cross-contam rules, etc). Still, I want to have a fecal float done to see if there are parasites, and to have the snake sexed, and just to get a baseline on health.
So. Time to call the friendly local reptile vet. I did some searching well before I got corns (these were from a reputable breeder and did not get an initial vet visit; I didn't feel it necessary) and found that there were two recommended vets in the area. One was closer to home while the other was farther from home but closer to where I used to live and thus where I still take my ferrets and cats when they need care/checkups. In retrospect, I should have just called the vet at the practice I already love and trust, but I thought I would give the closer-to-home vet a shot since she was supposed to be great with reptiles.
So, I called her to schedule an appointment. She said it was great I was being so responsible but that I couldn't legally keep the garter. Say what? I told her that I had JUST looked at the Wisconsin DNR regulations and my county and township laws and found nothing at all which said that. I explained very patiently that I KNEW this was not a ribbon snake or Butler's Garter, neither of which you may keep in Wisconsin because they are on the protected lists. This was just a plain ol' ThammySirt, for real. She insisted that ALL native reptile species, PER STATE LAW, need to be released into the wild before it gets too cold and may not be retained as pets. I was a little flustered at this point because I could've sworn I read every line of the regs...and I didn't want to argue, so I thanked her politely and hung up.
And went to look at the regs again. Here's a link: http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/captive/HerpsRegs.pdf
Now, call me crazy, but according to those regs I can keep up to five adult Thamnophis Sirtalis, no problem. Right? Or am I missing something?
So after I read the regs again, I got a little miffed. The way I see it, if I am not missing something in the regs, one of two things happened. Either 1) This vet is not fully aware of the state regulations concerning captive reptiles OR 2) This vet feels that it is ethically wrong to capture and keep this snake as a pet and was trying to "scare" me into letting it go.
Now, if 1) is true, that's still a bit troubling. They are pretty simple, clear regulations, and I would hope that a reptile vet would be aware of them, or would at least consent that they may have changed since she last looked, or something...? Either way, it doesn't instill me with a lot of confidence.
OR...for the second one, here's the thing: If she feels that way and said, "I'm sorry, in my practice I will not see that garter unless it is injured/sick because I don't feel that it is ethically proper to keep it as a pet," I would have been 100% respectful of that and impressed that she felt strongly enough about it to say so, and would politely thank her and that would be that. But if she was really misleading me because she feels that way...that makes me feel patronized and frustrated and insulted.
I called the state DNR info line to have them answer the question but they were amused and clueless...they referred me to my local game warden. I called him and left him a message explaining my question and asked for a call-back...nothing yet, but this is a busy time of year for the Wisconsin DNR!
I called my "regular" vet and told them what I had and what I wanted, and they scheduled me cheerfully...I love them.
So...thoughts? Input? Am I reading the regs wrong, and does Shannon really need to go out the door ASAP? Was the vet mistaken? Could she really have been trying to fleece me? Is there another possibility I haven't seen? Am I being an awful monster in that I want to keep Shannon as a pet? :(