Opinions on Breeding

[OregonHerpaholic]

Hi all, just want some honest opinions.. I am seriously thinking of getting some cb, melanistic, eastern garters this fall.. but was wondering if I should think of breeding them, or just keep as pets. I would love to have a pair, but do not know how well garters sell.. Most of the folk I know, think of garters as just something to go catch..not buy. And while I do not wish to make money off them, I do want to make sure I would have homes...before I breed.. Although getting stuck with a dozen or so would not be too bad.

So, what do you all think?? Same sex, or breeding pair???

Billie

[Cazador]

Hi Billie,

Quite frankly, I don't think there are enough people supplying melanistic easterns to meet demands. You certainly won't be "stuck" with them if you choose to breed them. They're interesting from a genetic standpoint as well since the melanistic trait is recessive. If you breed them with any other form (except perhaps albino) you'll get the other snake's appearance. I don't know what would happen if you bred them with an albino eastern. Hope this helps.

[KITKAT]

I don't know what would happen if you bred them with an albino eastern. Hope this helps.

I can predict that! The albino gene is also recessive. Let's assume that your melanistic snake does NOT carry a hidden albino gene (not het for albino) and that your albino snake does NOT carry a hidden melanistic gene (not het for melanism).

When you breed them together, the albino will give all offspring an albino gene, but the melanistic will give all offspring a non-albino gene. And, the melanistic will give all offspring the melanistic gene, but the albino will give all offspring a non-melanistic gene.

The result will be all "normals" which will be double het for melanism and albinism.:cool:

[GarterGuy]

I have to agree with Rick (Cazador), if you're going to get a pair, you might as well try and breed them. Even if the attitude is to just go out and catch garters (which people in Oregon can't do if they want Melanistic eastern garters!;) ), it's always a selling point when you provide captive bred offspring for sale. Captive bred animals are almost always healthier and better adjusted to captive conditions and thus usually make better pets. Even if you were to breed a native species to your area, I think you wouldn't have a problem selling the captive bred babies over wild caught ones. Also remember the power of the internet. If you're willing to deal with "mailing" snakes, you could be able to sell your babies all over the country. Having said that, one thing to remember is that if you do breed, you're going to have to provide for possibley LOTS of baby snakes, that may not always be real cooperating as far as feeding and such. It's one thing to have a pair, but to suddenly go from two to 20 or 30( garters can have VERY big litters sometimes) is sometimes a bit too much for people and something you really need to consider before breeding.
Roy

[Cazador]

Garterguy makes a good point about the power of the internet. There are several places to advertise your snakes, including on this website. This will be the first full year that this website has been on-line, so the "Classified" section should become a lot more active once spring rolls around.

Kitkat,
The offspring would certainly be double hets, but since both traits are recessive, each parent would only have genes to code for melanism or albinism. They wouldn't have genes to code for stripes. The melanistic parent has two genes (one from each of it's parents) both coding for dark skin because it isn't heterozygous. Similar situation for the albino parent. It's been a while, but I suspect that melanism is dominant over albinism. Any thoughts?

[KITKAT]

Kitkat,
The offspring would certainly be double hets, but since both traits are recessive, each parent would only have genes to code for melanism or albinism. They wouldn't have genes to code for stripes. The melanistic parent has two genes (one from each of it's parents) both coding for dark skin because it isn't heterozygous. Similar situation for the albino parent. It's been a while, but I suspect that melanism is dominant over albinism. Any thoughts?

I'll have to respectfully disagree there, Cazador. The allele for albino is not on the same locus as the allele for melanism. In mendelian code, it would look like this:

C = non-albino (color)
c = albino
M = non-melanistic (I made up this symbol as I do not know the correct letter to use for melanistic, but the process of mendelian law is the same)
m = melanistic

The genotype of the offspring would be CcMm and the phenotype (what you see is what you get) would be CM. Since wild garters are CM, you would have a "normal" that carried one copy of each of the recessive genes.

And melanistic is not technically dominant over albino, as melanistic is a seperate trait on another allele.

But that is a more technical, longer, and more complicated explanation.;)

So we will have to agree to disagree on this one.:rolleyes:

[Cazador]

Nope. I respectfully disagree, that we'll have to agree to disagree :rolleyes:. That all makes sense, and I didn't consider that albinism and melanism were in different loci. I was considering them different alleles at the same locus. Told you it had been a while ;). I see your point and concede:D. Nicely done.
Rick

[charles parenteau]

HI. I spring 1999 I caught a wild melanistic female eastern garter,she was nearly 3 feet,later in summer ,she drop 36 het babies... She had only two white scales under her chin, and the labial full black,so that was the first known melanistic eastern found in quebec.Jet black!!!
Later that year she became real sick ,she unfortunately died .One by one all baby died too.
Bad luck !
That was the most impressive specimen of melanistic eastern garter snake I never seen,in my mind!!!
My goal was to breed her with a melanistic male from a well known population,just to see the result of that match !2 possibilities I think.
1: Het and melanistic baby or 2 :Double hets baby- regular ...
Now she is in my freezer .
Sorry for my bad english...

[Cazador]

Hi Charles,

What a remarkable snake !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sometimes it's hard to get a good picture of melanistics, but you also did a great job of that, too. Thanks for sharing your story, and please don't worry about your English. It's better than a lot of locals I know;) . Anyway, it's a real shame they died. I wonder if it was a dietary deficiency. What were you feeding them, and were you providing vitamin supplements/variety in their diet... different food items?

Rick

[charles parenteau]

TAnks .I don't think that dietary deffiency is the cause .
Because she was feeding on mouse,sometime with terrafauna powder or something like that..she was loosing weight ,at the end she regurgitate all meal even toad.
The vet told me that she has some kind of disease and that was probably the cause of babies death .
Even if she don't move ,It still a challenge to take a good pic of her!!!

[Cazador]

It took me a little while to figure out that those were pictures of a frozen snake :D. I thought she was having trouble shedding, or something ;). The first thing I think of when I hear a snake is eating well but losing weight is parasites. If you decide to cut her open, look for 1-1.5mm thick roundworms. Those and tapeworms are really the only internal parasites you can see with your naked eye.

[OregonHerpaholic]

LOVE THE SNAKE.. Still can't believe it is a garter snake.. Until recently, I didn't even know they were found in that phase. That is the reason I have been obsessing about them.

NO, Problem about clutch size. I also breed cornsnakes.. I had a clutch of 35 last year.. 33 hatched and survived.. AND I only breed one litter per year(or every other year).. no going crazy here.

I thought the Melanistic garter was a wild subspecies found in OHIO, how is it's genes compatible for any other type of Eastern garter?? I know they are all Eastern's but it would have to be a true species if they breed true melanistics??? Althought I have no clue when it comes to genetics..:rolleyes:

Billie

[CrazyHedgehog]

20 years ago, I had my first garters, I bought 2 in a pet shop for £20 (£10 each) One was a red sided common, and one pure black...

I have been looking ever since for a black one and hadn't seen one since....that was until I went to Hamm last year...

I now have a melanistic common and an anuristic plains..(couldn't choose so I had both!)

[charles parenteau]

I Friend of mind ,A well known garter freak, bring that to me .
Since 2004 she is under my care.
this is a futur breeding projet! Top shape Albino flame garter snake,by now she is in the fridge at 4 celcius...

[mikm]

hello Charles ... WOW !!! that is one BEAUTIFUL flame albino !!!