Ribbons & garters breeding??

[Lori P]

This is probably a really dumb question, and it's probably something I should know... will ribbon snakes and garters interbreed?? As I start to get new enclosures set up, I'm wondering who I can mix safely.

Thanks!!

[Stefan-A]

If it's uncertain, the safest thing is to assume that they can.

[Lori P]

But is it uncertain? Has anyone known of them to interbreed?

[Stefan-A]

Can't use inductive reasoning on this one. :)

[Lori P]

Better safe than sorry, in other words. Okee dokee then. You old wise Stefan, you. :)

[infernalis]

Lori, I have personally never heard of such a hybrid existing.

For a successful fertilization to occur, there has to be a certain degree of genetic compatibility.

I cannot say with utmost certainty that they would be genetically incompatible, but comparing a ribbon to a garter would be like comparing a human to an ape. (close, similar appearance, same genetic class, different species)

Realistically, I doubt you'd have babies any time soon putting a ribbon with a garter.

I'd be more concerned about physiological impact, the 2 species behave differently enough, that one may be unsettled by the others presence.

[Stefan-A]

The psychological impact would be the least of my concerns.


Wayne, how many known cases are there, of species within the same genus being unable to produce hybrids? Humans and chimps are a poor example, since Homo and Pan aren't as closely related as T. radix and T. proximus, for example.

Interesting side note: apparently, the Soviets tried creating human/chimp hybrids. :D

[Lori P]

Thanks, Wayne. I have had a ribbon living with the garters, and everyone seems comfortable; but then Reed, the ribbon, has always lived with Curious, a garter. Those two spend most of their time together, almost always in the same hide. Too cute. :-) They certainly seem to have the same habits and behaviors... as far as I can tell. But then for all I know, they're in there calling each other names... lol

[GartersRock]

As far as I know they can. I have seen ribbon x garter crosses.

[wolfess]

Interesting side note: apparently, the Soviets tried creating human/chimp hybrids. :D
Well now you're just talking abt my first boyfriend:p!

[wolfess]

Wayne, how many known cases are there, of species within the same genus being unable to produce hybrids? Humans and chimps are a poor example, since Homo and Pan aren't as closely related as T. radix and T. proximus, for example.

What abt those lion and tiger crosses? If those 2 can cross-pollinate:) why couldn't 2 snakes?

[infernalis]

Notice that I did point out it was an assumption, uneducated or otherwise.

I know however that Scott Felzer has attempted to breed Garter snakes that were far closer together on the family tree with no results.

Yes Scientists have successfully hybridized many things.

If one person anywhere can post picture proof that a ribbon has successfully hybridized with another order of Thamnophis naturally by simply copulating, please present it.

Somehow I still struggle to find it likely to occur. Yet that is just my wave of thought;)

[Stefan-A]

Yes Scientists have successfully hybridized many things.
None of the (successful) examples used so far are examples of hybridization assisted by scientists.


If one person anywhere can post picture proof that a ribbon has successfully hybridized with another order of Thamnophis naturally by simply copulating, please present it.
I'm not sure what you mean by the word "order", since the scientific term "order" doesn't fit the context, but I think it's important to acknowledge that the division of Thamnophis into garters and ribbons is completely arbitrary and has no real scientific merits. They all belong to the same genus and are closely related. The ribbon snakes are as much part of Thamnophis, as sirtalis or radix. With that in mind, there's really no reason to assume that it would be safe to keep them together.

Two other things should be pointed out as well. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence and to conclusively prove a hybrid, you need more than just a picture.

[infernalis]

Well stated and thought out as always:D

I respectfully back down, It would never happen here, since I think a ribbon would probably harass the poor garter snake anyways.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

based on what i've seen hybrid wise, (I have seen some pretty distant snakes hybridized) I would say that it is most likely very possible for members of the thamnophis genus to produce viable offfspring... whether they be a garter cross, ribbon cross, or a garter x ribbon cross. I'm not going to say that the fertility rate would be high or that fertilization would even happen every time... but I think if the conditions and the right two snakes were combined... it can happen.

just my humble opinion.

[Zephyr]

I would say that they indeed can.
Speaking from experience with T. s. sirtalis and T. m. marcianus...
And also think that they can reproduce with lined snakes, but the young would probably be infertile.

[Loren]

I agree with Shannon's line of thought. If you look at many of the other hybrids out there in general, I find it believable that they could breed. Now, are they at all likely to without special coaxing? Thats a different question. And I dont know :)

[Loren]

Interesting side note: apparently, the Soviets tried creating human/chimp hybrids. :D

How did they go about hiring people for that job ?

Classifieds?

Wanted; people who really like chimps.

[infernalis]

PITA members were standing in line:eek:

[Stefan-A]

How did they go about hiring people for that job ?

Classifieds?

Wanted; people who really like chimps.
With a propaganda machine like theirs, finding volunteers probably wasn't a problem.

[Garter_Gertie]

YOU GUYS ARE KILLING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good humor we gots going here! TOO FUNNY!

[Loren]

PITA members were standing in line:eek:

Ha!

you mean PETA right?

[Stefan-A]

PITA members were standing in line:eek:
That explains why they failed. You can't cross-breed a PETA member with a human. The offspring wouldn't be viable.

Incidentally, I'm registered at the PETA forum. I was going to ask why they aren't protesting at rattlesnake roundups, but couldn't be arsed.

[Loren]

That explains why they failed. You can't cross-breed a PETA member with a human. The offspring wouldn't be viable.



Ok, you win for funniest line. :D

[Loren]

Incidentally, I'm registered at the PETA forum. I was going to ask why they aren't protesting at rattlesnake roundups, but couldn't be arsed.
I've wondered myself.
Lost you at the end there though- what do you mean "couldnt be arsed"?

[Garter_Gertie]

Nope. PETA's can't x-breed with humans.

But I've heard they have no problems interbreeding with donkeys...

[Loren]

Thats where the term jacka$$ comes from I guess.

[Stefan-A]

Lost you at the end there though- what do you mean "couldnt be arsed"?
Couldn't be bothered to do it. CBA for short.

[Loren]

Ah, I follow you now. Thanks.

[Stefan-A]

But I've heard they have no problems interbreeding with donkeys...
I bet that the donkeys don't share that sentiment.

[infernalis]

OOOOPS I did mean PETA, and yes a donkey has higher standards......:eek:

[Zephyr]

Haha!
You guys are killing me! XD

[Tori]

I know of at least one hybrid cross between a garter and ribbon, so it definately can happen.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

With a propaganda machine like theirs, finding volunteers probably wasn't a problem.

In Soviet Russia... chimp really likes YOU.

[richard f.]

Posed this before- this spring I found two garters, one ring-necked, and one orange-bellied under the same cut log. All six to ten inches. Curious about it.

[Stefan-A]

In Soviet Russia... chimp really likes YOU.
Yeah, they got all the nice chimps. The rest, well...

USATODAY.com - Birthday party turns bloody when chimps attack (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-04-chimp-attack_x.htm)
Man Attacked by Chimps at Sanctuary Returns Home - Los Angeles Times (http://articles.latimes.com/2005/aug/17/local/me-chimp17)

[infernalis]

Posed this before- this spring I found two garters, one ring-necked, and one orange-bellied under the same cut log. All six to ten inches. Curious about it.

It is common for mixed species to seek shelter under the same cover.

Sometimes it results in a meal for one of them. (Ringnecks eat snake)

[ssssnakeluvr]

Ha!

you mean PETA right?

People Eating Tasty Animals??????? :rolleyes:

[richard f.]

Thanks, Wayne. It was the ringneck, being the smallest, that got eaten. Also the very small orange bellied. The smaller of the two remaining garters was very nervous, the larger quite placid. A hard lesson for a small girl; she kissed them and let them go.

[drache]

yes I believe they might interbreed

as to the Russian experiments
easy - give the guy enough Vodka and the chimp won't even need a wig

[Lori P]

ROFL you guys are such a hoot!! :-) Thank you for the advice, I shall keep boys and girls apart to be safe. It's possibly one of those things where they wouldn't "naturally" breed, but, forced to live in an enclosed environment, they might start to look really good to each other. LOL

Ok, next question-- I've not yet found the missing ribbon snake. :( I still have hope, tho. In any case, can I move the other one in with my boys? The scale rot (which is much improved after two sheds) is not harmful to the others, right? He's been here about two months and has been dewormed twice. Would that be a sufficient quarantine time?

Thanks!!