OK I'm sooooo TEEDED off it's not even funny!!!!!

[Charlet_2007]

Ok so im getting breeder mice from the girl in nixa like 10 mins from me 15 of them for 10 bucks not bad when they are going 2.50 each adult... well she emailed me and told me this...

My collection of colubrids is getting big but I think I'm gonna breed out some awesome corn crossses next season!
I have an adult male Albino Cal King that I'm going to attempt to breed with one of my female corns.
I'm super excited to see the results. Maybe produce some albino jungles.
Been talking to a lady that does hybrid crosses like that and she's gonna help me through it, lol.


How in the heck do I tell her what shes going is majorly wrong with out being a major ***BEAP*** about it?

[infernalis]

How in the heck do I tell her what shes going is majorly wrong with out being a major ***BEEP*** about it?

Very gently and tactfully:D

However there are already a bunch of people hybridizing corns/kings/milks.

Corns and rat snakes are also commonly mixed.

[Charlet_2007]

oh well you know me i rescue..so its just a matter of time befor ei get a rush of people not wanting mix bred snakes like mix breed dogs..

[infernalis]

Yeah I can relate...

[Lori P]

I would go with something like: "I can tell you're excited! Well, I guess I can't get as excited about hybrids because we get so many in the rescue... you know how it is, it's a novelty for a bit but then it's the first one to go when someone has to downsize. And so many people look down on hybrids, they are often just discarded or given away to inapropriate homes... it's so sad. Anyway, can't wait to get my mice..."

I take that tactic often... not too mean but might plant a seed.

[Lexa]

Yeah, tactful is better. Some people (like me with two different garters a few weeks ago, lol) may not even think that they're radically different snakes.

Poor hybrids! I'm now making a mental note to find my nearest rescue place and see if they have any unwanted ones who need a home.

[GartersRock]

Yeah Lori's got it I think. ;) Good luck.

[sschind]

Ok so im getting breeder mice from the girl in nixa like 10 mins from me 15 of them for 10 bucks not bad when they are going 2.50 each adult... well she emailed me and told me this...

My collection of colubrids is getting big but I think I'm gonna breed out some awesome corn crossses next season!
I have an adult male Albino Cal King that I'm going to attempt to breed with one of my female corns.
I'm super excited to see the results. Maybe produce some albino jungles.
Been talking to a lady that does hybrid crosses like that and she's gonna help me through it, lol.


How in the heck do I tell her what shes going is majorly wrong with out being a major ***BEAP*** about it?

Keep in mind that not everyone feels that hybridization is majorly wrong. Would you tell someone that buying a Mercedes is majorly wrong? It's the same thing. Its a personal choice and its not even an ethical choice as far as I am concerned.

Personally, I don't like hybrids at all and I wish they didn't exist but they do and they will continue to so as long as the genetics are explained fully I am not going to get all worked up over it. Especially when they aren't doing anything wrong

[Charlet_2007]

well this girl is only like 13-14 if that..

[drache]

well this girl is only like 13-14 if that..
there's time to learn . . .

[gregmonsta]

Jungle corn crosses are widely accepted and have been established in the hobby for quite some time ...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

There is nothing wrong with hybrids, as long as they are honestly represented for what they are. They are every bit as beautiful and wonderful as any full blooded snake.

She is going to attempt to produce what's called a "jungle corn"... and as gregmonsta said, they are a widely accepted and even sought after snake in the hobby. Their popularity is due to the fact that no two are quite alike... they combine the beauty of both species in very interesting patterning and color. I don;t personally have any, but If I ever meet the right one... then I will!

[GartersRock]

There is nothing wrong with hybrids, as long as they are honestly represented for what they are. They are every bit as beautiful and wonderful as any full blooded snake.


Oh I agree!!! Many hybrids ARE beautiful.
But thats just it... Not everyone is going to represent what the really are... That can really mess things up for people. :(
So it's just a really risky thing...

[Charlet_2007]

i am a full time rescue.. what makes me mad is that in breeding the 2 together which she shouldn't do in the first place then by eather selling them or giving them away will hurt potenal adopters for snakes that need to be adopted.. kind of like puppy mills and adopting dogs you know what i mean? that and im just waint for a hurd of mix breed snakes to come thu here now.. :(:(:(

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I agree, to an extent with what you are saying... but I really dont see it happening in the way it does with dogs or cats. A dog is a LOT more work. When people have snakes, they can easily mantain even a fairly large collection without a whole lot of effort.... while a dog... well, dogs are a ton of work. The point is... that many hybrid snakes are actually MORE sought after right now than normals, and I am speaking of course about the peole that actually like hybrids, cause not everyone does and that's their opinion. There are so many names out there for them.... and they sell faster than normal snakes!!! I would be more worried about the fate of the albino checkered garter snake.... so inbred, half of them come out ********. or the extremely hardcore overabundance of cornsnakes and BP's we are seeing. But even all those cornsnakes, all those BP's are still going to homes. and it's because housing snakes and dogs are two very different things. People are always looking to expand and collect more awesome snakes. I understand completely where you are coming from, and Im not criticizing anyone here....but I firmly do not beleive that there is going to be a sudden rush of hybrid snakes into the shelters... especially not these jungle corns.

I understand that every animal sold, is one displaced as far as adoption.... I actually encourage every person I can at my store to adopt their next dog and not buy it. I highly despise puppy mills... and that goes the same for any place that mass breeds/imports snakes purely for profit... or any animal for that matter. but some people want to buy their snakes because they want to know exactly where it came from, it's lineage, it's feeding records, basically it's life story from even before it was born, and they want to raise that snake to adulthood and use it as a breeder of their own, hybrid or not, everyone has their own preferences to their snakes and what they keep, how they acquire them, and how they care for them. I don't think snakes will ever crowd shelters by the millions like dogs and cats... because snake keeping, and mammal keeing, are two very different levels of time and money consumption.

I personally have adopted quite a few snakes, and even a few lizards, even if it was solely for the purpose of getting their health and weight back up to par before rehoming them. I recently rescued a 4 foot cornsnake that had been crowded in a 10 gallon all its life... and I am keeping her, and plan to use her in a future project since she's so unique.

[GartersRock]

I REALLY don't like it when people compare reptiles, rodents etc to dogs and cats. TOTALLY different if you ask me. And I am involved in both. ;) The dogs and cats are in a worse situation. WAY worse. lol

[Charlet_2007]

no this is is the way i think about it.. it's like playing god.. these 2 snakes would never in a million years come in contact with each other in the wild.. so who's for us just to look at the both of them and say oh wow let do this to get this it's just plain WRONG in my opinion..

[Hornets23]

Hybridization does occur in nature....I dont know about these two species specifically...Also nature does have many means of reproductive isolation, so if two species are able to produce viable offspring....is it THAT bad? I dont know...something to think about I guess. Plus you have to factor in that these are pets we are talking about. Dogs didnt come nicely packaged into AKC recognized breeds until humans did a lot of tinkering. I wouldnt exactly consider it morally wrong.

[sschind]

A couple of things.

If you are a full time rescue then shouldn't you be opposed to ANY breeding of ANY snakes. I don't see why a hybrid snake is any different than a pure species from your standpoint. Any snake bred is a snake sold and is a potential adoption lost. I doubt that hybrids turn up at rescues in any more abundance than pure species.

Why shouldn't she breed the two together in the first place? You are trying to force your values on someone else. Like I said before, not everyone thinks it is wrong.

I'm pretty sure that there is some overlap of corn snake and kingsnake ranges. Maybe not cal kings but certainly more Eastern species. Nature has developed ways to keep snakes from hybridizing in the wild but it is not a foolproof plan. As Hornet said, hybridization in nature does happen.

OK, we get it. In YOUR opinion it is just plain wrong. But not in everyone's opinion. No one is trying to tell you that you should accept and embrace hybrids. What you have done however, is accuse those who do like hybrids of playing God. You have told them their opinion is wrong. This is not an issue where there is a right and a wrong. There is just your opinion and somebody else's opinion and they may be different. I don't mind if you tell me that your opinion is different than mine, I just don't like it when you tell me I am wrong for having my opinion.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

no this is is the way i think about it.. it's like playing god.. these 2 snakes would never in a million years come in contact with each other in the wild.. so who's for us just to look at the both of them and say oh wow let do this to get this it's just plain WRONG in my opinion..

Okay... I see why you are so upset, but honestly... there is nothing, absolutely NOTHING, natural about us keeping snakes period. We play god to our snakes and ALL of our pets, so the "playing god" tactic with hybrids, is bogus. I have heard that argument too many times... and it's time I spoke my two cents about it. If youre gonna go for that route....Who's for us to keep snakes period?

We tell our snakes what theyre gonna eat, when theyre gonna eat it, what kind of climate they will live in, what they get to hide in, what kind of stuff they get to crawl around on, when they are gonna mate, who they get to mate with, how many times, where they get to lay their eggs, how big of a water source they have available, where their heat comes from and then on top of all that, we harass them constantly by picking them up and playing with them. There is nothing naturual at all about us keeping snakes in glass boxes and writng their life stories for them. We take an animal that has evolved to survive less than optimal conditions... and we give them optimal conditions... which is really not natural for the snake at all. There is no one to wipe debris from their food in the wild, no one to remove that stuck shed, no one to move them somewhere dry when their entire habitat is soaking wet. There is no one to protect them from the hungry claws of a hawk or the jaws of another snake. There is no one to help them, no one but themselves, but they are still doing fine. By giving them optimal conditions... we are essentially mimicing snake utopia. That, by far, is ten times more playing god than simply allowing two snakes of different species, who are perfectly willing, and able, to breed. Sure, in a sense, it is playing god, but you are playing god the moment you choose to own any animal. And that is not an opinion, but pure, raw, fact, like it or not.

I understand that not everyone chooses to like hybrids, and those of us who do, will like them regardless of the opposing people trying to impose their ways upon us.

Look at it from this point of view.... how many people out there do not agree with us keeping snakes, how many times have you felt attacked when someone called you a horrible person for feeding a cutsie wootsie mouse to a snake? In the end... it all comes down to what you personally can handle, and what you can't. People who like rodents a whole lot... don't keep snakes, because in their eyes, it is wrong. But we do it, we love it, we embrace it and we share the love with one another. And we do not allow the masses to sway us. People within that group of snake keepers, who like hybrids, keep them. And yet, there are people in our own trade who continue to criticize one another, and put others down for something that they simply do not agree with and have opinionated themselves against, and are trying to press that opinion upon those that do not agree with how they feel.

Basically, what I am getting at, is that I think it's totally silly and even hypocritical, for snake keepers to try and impose their feelings and beliefs on others, and yet do not realize that they are doing to other people exactly what the non-snake keepers do to them!

[ATNGUY]

Shannon....Brilliant!

[GartersRock]

BRAVO Shannon!!!!!!

[Stefan-A]

There is nothing naturual at all about us keeping snakes in glass boxes and writng their life stories for them.

I agree with the "playing god" argument being a fallacy.

But.. Everyone who has tried to define what's natural, has failed miserably. The problem is, that they try to dictate what's natural, rather than observe. For example, our desire to keep pets in the first place, is the result of instincts being misapplied and one might argue that both the instincts and that they are misapplied, are both quite natural.

One could also argue that they are simply being applied in a way that is no different from anything else that we observe in nature.. What we may be witnessing with people keeping pets and livestock, may also well be a developing mutualistic relationship. It may not seem that way at first glance, but we are increasing the fitness of the animals we keep. The relationship could very well be argued to be "natural", on the grounds that mutualistic relationships occur in nature. Aphids trade sugar for protection by ants. -We provide pets with food and shelter, and increased chances of reproduction, in exchange for the services they provide.

You also seem to be proponing a model, where one "unnatural" thing justifies the other, here in this specific case. Usually, these models are used the other way around (also fallaciously), to justify the banning of something innoccuous, on the grounds that it may lead to something that is perceived as harmful.

Most importantly, I think you need to understand that people may want you to have the right to produce hybrids if you wish to do it, but still think that it would be better if you didn't do it. The day someone starts to propose the banning of hybrids, I'll be there opposing that proposition. That would be an example of people tring to impose their beliefs on you.

[GartersRock]

Agreed. I personally, prefer people didn't create hybrids. BUT I would never try to STOP anyone from doing so if they feel it's ok. ;)

[Loren]

Definitely a lot of preference involved in this discussion. My preference in snakes is mostly those that are found in the wild in my part of the country, because I can study/enjoy them in captivity, and actually get to find them in the wild as well.
I walk right by hybrids (unless they are a naturally occuring one) because I am interested in snakes and their life in the wild, and man made "species" dont have any wild background to study. They essentially dont exist to me. Some are pretty, but it stops at pretty for me. Just my opinion. Cant teach someone about how a corn/king cross lives in the wild, because it dont(other than maybe a super rare wild caught hybrid, which I would enjoy finding it was truly wild-bred).

Yet my dogs are 3 way crosses, and I'll take them over a purebred anyday, and dont plan to ever have a purebred dog. And my parents crossbreed their dairy cattle with great results. The difference being that cross breeding breeds of dogs and cows undues the many many generations of inbreeding that have begun to show obvious problems in the breeds. Only condition being that the crosses should be made with careful selection of the breeds of both parents- not just a random humping.

But now I have myself confused on the differences between "breeds" (dogs, cows) and "species and subspecies" (snakes). Guess they(dogs, cows) are all so domesticated and custom bred that they arent really wild anymore anyways.

[Stefan-A]

Guess they(dogs, cows) are all so domesticated and custom bred that they arent really wild anymore anyways.
It was studied on pigs and cows in the 70's. Domesticated animals, given the opportunity, would behave just like their wild counterparts. Behavior that they hadn't had any use for since they were first domesticated thousands of years ago, resurfaced very quickly. Of course it's pointless to mention this, considering all the cases in the world with domesticated animals becoming feral.

[drache]

this is a fascinating discussion and it's very early . . .
my mind is a bit lazy and spitting up random responses and musings
personally, I find the purity movement just as abhorrent as the paint pot approach to breeding - one could say, I prefer the middle path
frankly, the idea of breeding different species to each other, at first glance seems absurd to me - and somewhat offensive
yet I think mules are fantastic, and hunters capital horses, and the average mutt sturdier and more intelligent than the average pure bred dog
yes - they're all examples from the mammalian world which is so different
but that really isn't the difference as much as the difference in our minds
I can see it in my own
all these mammals have been kept for utilitarian reasons for ages, so it's not surprising that humans should have selected and bred them for desirable traits and we're thoroughly habituated to it
the reptiles serve a different purpose - we keep them for our pleasure, even if it's disguised as scientific interest
so possibly, the faint disgust I feel at the cavalier mix and match approach to breeding, has more to do with some puritan corner of my mind that considers it frivolous to do such a momentous thing, just to satisfy someones aesthetic preferences which are in many cases different from mine
and the faint disgust I feel at the absoluteness of the racial purity movement stems from the sense of confinement and some ugly associations
it's probably no less personal for most of you
I can claim no noble purpose in my keeping of reptiles at all - still trying to come up with a decent justification, but meanwhile I'm enjoying their company and trying to make it, so they don't abhor mine
I don't think they have much of an opinion about it, since they have nothing to compare it to
pardon my ramblings - I need another tea

[Loren]

No need to pardon your ramblings. They were well wrtitten. :)

[Topaz]

I honestly did not know that hybrids outside of the wild even existed until this thread. I had heard of the water moccasin and the copperhead mating and producing some very venomous offspring in the NC area.

Speaking from the point of view of a rodent rescue, the majority of rescues aren't against all breeding practices. I've only heard of a few reptile rescues in my area, and a couple of those breed snakes and geckos themselves. Probably because they're never full up on rescue cases. We actually just got back from a lady's home who does all rescue, with snakes and birds being her specialty. She breeds pastel ball pythons. The biggest problem with breeding dogs, cats, and rodents (for pets,) is that anyone can do it, but not anyone should. From my limited understanding, it takes more knowledge and dedication to breed something like snakes, especially a hybrid.

I have no idea of that makes sense since I just woke up. But I hope I got my opionion out there.